there is no such thing as heaven or hell the sooner you realize that the sooner you can live your life to the fullist. religion was and is just a way
to get people to do what the religion's leader wanted, maybe for reasons that one would believe to be good maybe for reasons not so good but none the
less religion is just a lie
Is Hell actually a more preferable destination than Heaven?, page 7
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reply posted on 24-7-2008 @ 03:08 PM by NOTurTypical
reply to post by EverythingYouDespise
Kinda hard to enjoy orgies and feasts whilsts your skin peels off in a lake of fire.
Does "weeping and gnashing of teeth" sound inviting to you?
I'd rather spend eternity on my knees is worship than 10 minutes on the surface of the sun. Figuratively speaking of course.
Kinda hard to enjoy orgies and feasts whilsts your skin peels off in a lake of fire.
Does "weeping and gnashing of teeth" sound inviting to you?
I'd rather spend eternity on my knees is worship than 10 minutes on the surface of the sun. Figuratively speaking of course.
reply posted on 24-7-2008 @ 10:39 PM by Sweet Paula
Originally posted by Tomis_NexisIt is not over until it's over, remember? Don't make that assumption.
reply to post by EverythingYouDespise
I'm not a believer but when I pass away and if I'm at St.Peters gate (and I know I won't get access) I only have one question about hell? "So...I should wear shorts?"
I hope and pray that you will be there and that your name will be written in the Lamb's Book of Life!
In fact I have prayed so......therefore I believe that He will draw you into the Kingdom.
Bless you,
~Paula
reply posted on 27-7-2008 @ 03:21 AM by pause4thought
reply to post by Cyberbian
Hi Cyberbian. That was an original theory!
This was written 1200 - 1400 years B.C. :
Deuteronomy 32:22 (Moses)
About 1000 B.C. :
Psalm 55:15a (David)
About 30 A.D. :
Christ in Matthew 10:28
I'm afraid the 'Viking' theory doesn't hold water. God has been speaking to man about these things for a very very long time. How we react to them is up to each one of us.
Hi Cyberbian. That was an original theory!
This was written 1200 - 1400 years B.C. :
...a fire is kindled in my anger, and shall burn to the lowest hell.
Deuteronomy 32:22 (Moses)
About 1000 B.C. :
Let death seize them; let them go down alive into hell.
Psalm 55:15a (David)
About 30 A.D. :
"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Christ in Matthew 10:28
I'm afraid the 'Viking' theory doesn't hold water. God has been speaking to man about these things for a very very long time. How we react to them is up to each one of us.
reply posted on 27-7-2008 @ 03:49 AM by Cyberbian
reply to post by pause4thought
You are good! Yes 14000 Years ago, At the end of the Ice Age, when the Vikings came down the coast of Europe and into the Middle East conquering, and being assimilated into the local cultures as leaders.
Not my theory, actual norse history.
Here is a little Wikipeda link about the Goddess. I read a book on the subject many years ago, I wish I had the reference.
en.wikipedia.org...(being)
The dating is inexact since that is about the limit of human history. Yes both these sources are from approximately the earliest times in documented human history at the end of the iceage.
You are well versed, but are you well read? You need to look at the origins if you would claim authority in your knowledge. You cannot so easily dismiss this. You can still choose to believe in Hel if you wish, after you learn it's origin.
www.godchecker.com...
An excerpt from Wikipedia on "Hell".
[edit on 27-7-2008 by Cyberbian]
You are good! Yes 14000 Years ago, At the end of the Ice Age, when the Vikings came down the coast of Europe and into the Middle East conquering, and being assimilated into the local cultures as leaders.
Not my theory, actual norse history.
Here is a little Wikipeda link about the Goddess. I read a book on the subject many years ago, I wish I had the reference.
en.wikipedia.org...(being)
The dating is inexact since that is about the limit of human history. Yes both these sources are from approximately the earliest times in documented human history at the end of the iceage.
You are well versed, but are you well read? You need to look at the origins if you would claim authority in your knowledge. You cannot so easily dismiss this. You can still choose to believe in Hel if you wish, after you learn it's origin.
www.godchecker.com...
Yes, her name gives us the word 'Hell', but her domain is almost the complete opposite of SATAN's abode: it's cold, damp, and populated by the kind of apathetic souls most devils would hardly feel worth the trouble of roasting. In fact most souls go to HELHEIM because they've spent their lives sitting on their asses instead of killing, pillaging and then singing rude songs about it.
An excerpt from Wikipedia on "Hell".
[edit] Etymology
[edit] Germanic paganism and Christian vocabulary
The modern English word Hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (about 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period, and ultimately from Proto-Germanic *halja, meaning "one who covers up or hides something".[3] The word has cognates in related Germanic languages such as Old Frisian helle, hille, Old Saxon hellja, Middle Dutch helle (modern Dutch hel), Old High German helle (Modern German Hölle), and Gothic halja.[3] Subsequently, the word was used to transfer a pagan concept to Christian theology and its vocabulary.[3]
The English word hell has been theorized as being derived from Old Norse Hel.[3] Amongst other sources, the Poetic Edda, compiled from earlier traditional sources in the 13th century, and the Prose Edda, written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson, provide information regarding the beliefs of the Norse pagans, including a female being named Hel, who is described as ruling over an underworld location of the same name.
[edit on 27-7-2008 by Cyberbian]
reply posted on 27-7-2008 @ 09:59 AM by pause4thought
reply to post by Cyberbian
Sir, you are a worthy opponent in this debate!
Forgive me, I assumed you were referring to the legends being taken around the world by the Vikings in the 9th to the 11th centuries.
My first point is that most of what you have argued relates to the etymology of the English word 'hell'. I am aware of these things, but they are irrelevant. The derivation of a word is not the same as the origin of a concept. There are, for example, numerous words for 'Heaven' ('Paradise', 'glory', 'Zion', 'the city of God', 'the skies', etc.). If, for argument's sake, you could demonstrate that the word 'Paradise' originated from the language of a tribe that believed in pink fairies and their eternal abode, it would have no bearing on the existence of another place which the word later came to denote, namely the dwelling place of the Maker of Heaven and earth. The question is, where did the concept, the idea of 'hell' originate?
You have argued that the Vikings wrote of such things at the end of the Ice Age, at the limit of human history. That is a good argument. However I held back an argument which trumps it. Those of us who believe the Bible have evidence that goes back even further. We believe the Ice Age was the result of a global flood. Thus if we had literature predating the flood which speaks of hell it would suggest that the Vikings had obtained their ideas on the subject from elsewhere.
I have in my hands a book some of whose words may well be positively primordial. It is, I believe, unparalleled in this sense. It could be argued that - with respect to antiquity - these passages make the Rosetta Stone look like a treatise of the post-modern era. The book is not counted among the canonical books of the Bible, but has always been highly respected, along with the other works which are collectively known as the 'Apocrypha'. (They are regarded by Protestants as profitable for reading, but not infallible as to their teaching. Some R. Catholics regard them as having equal weight as the Bible. I will come back to this in brief, later.)
The book in question is 1 Enoch. Although it may only have been written down a couple of centuries before Christ, at least some elements are the result of oral tradition handed down from time immemorial. (As I'm sure you're aware ancient cultures to some degree valued such oral passing down of history as highly as written accounts, and each successive generation committed the sayings to memory verbatum.) The book claims to be a collection of the sayings of Enoch, great-grandfather of Noah. It has much to say about hell.
1 Enoch 21:7-10
But is this really referring to 'hell', the destination of people who according to the Bible have left this life in rebellion against their Maker?
Jesus in Matthew 25:41
Anyone who thinks this is some kind of joke would do well to at least take five minutes of their life and read the whole passage in which this is found (-Matthew 25:31-46).
But is there any way of knowing that Enoch, Noah's great-grandfather, believed these things? As it happens, there is. In an unusual quirk of the Bible, Enoch is specifically quoted as a prophet who spoke of the future judgement of all the ungodly, and the quote matches what he says in 1 Enoch 1:9.
Jude 14&15
The concept of hell originates in Jewish teaching so ancient it predates the flood, and thus the Ice Age. The fact that other cultures later displayed knowledge of these things is the result of knowledge that spread throughout the inhabited earth from the ancient Middle East, which was the crucible in which civilization was born.
Sir, you are a worthy opponent in this debate!
Forgive me, I assumed you were referring to the legends being taken around the world by the Vikings in the 9th to the 11th centuries.
My first point is that most of what you have argued relates to the etymology of the English word 'hell'. I am aware of these things, but they are irrelevant. The derivation of a word is not the same as the origin of a concept. There are, for example, numerous words for 'Heaven' ('Paradise', 'glory', 'Zion', 'the city of God', 'the skies', etc.). If, for argument's sake, you could demonstrate that the word 'Paradise' originated from the language of a tribe that believed in pink fairies and their eternal abode, it would have no bearing on the existence of another place which the word later came to denote, namely the dwelling place of the Maker of Heaven and earth. The question is, where did the concept, the idea of 'hell' originate?
You have argued that the Vikings wrote of such things at the end of the Ice Age, at the limit of human history. That is a good argument. However I held back an argument which trumps it. Those of us who believe the Bible have evidence that goes back even further. We believe the Ice Age was the result of a global flood. Thus if we had literature predating the flood which speaks of hell it would suggest that the Vikings had obtained their ideas on the subject from elsewhere.
I have in my hands a book some of whose words may well be positively primordial. It is, I believe, unparalleled in this sense. It could be argued that - with respect to antiquity - these passages make the Rosetta Stone look like a treatise of the post-modern era. The book is not counted among the canonical books of the Bible, but has always been highly respected, along with the other works which are collectively known as the 'Apocrypha'. (They are regarded by Protestants as profitable for reading, but not infallible as to their teaching. Some R. Catholics regard them as having equal weight as the Bible. I will come back to this in brief, later.)
The book in question is 1 Enoch. Although it may only have been written down a couple of centuries before Christ, at least some elements are the result of oral tradition handed down from time immemorial. (As I'm sure you're aware ancient cultures to some degree valued such oral passing down of history as highly as written accounts, and each successive generation committed the sayings to memory verbatum.) The book claims to be a collection of the sayings of Enoch, great-grandfather of Noah. It has much to say about hell.
From there I travelled to another place... and I saw terrible things - a great fire burning and flaming there. And the place had a narrow cleft (extending) to the abyss, full of great pillars of fire, borne downward...
Then I said, "How terrible is this place and fearful to look at!" Then Uriel answered me, one of the holy angels who was with me, and said to me, "Enoch, why are you so frightened and shaken?" And I replied, "Because of this terrible place and because of the fearful sight." And he said, This place is a prison for the angels. Here they will be confined forever."
1 Enoch 21:7-10
But is this really referring to 'hell', the destination of people who according to the Bible have left this life in rebellion against their Maker?
Then He will also say to those on His left, "Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels!"
Jesus in Matthew 25:41
Anyone who thinks this is some kind of joke would do well to at least take five minutes of their life and read the whole passage in which this is found (-Matthew 25:31-46).
But is there any way of knowing that Enoch, Noah's great-grandfather, believed these things? As it happens, there is. In an unusual quirk of the Bible, Enoch is specifically quoted as a prophet who spoke of the future judgement of all the ungodly, and the quote matches what he says in 1 Enoch 1:9.
Look! The Lord comes with thousands of his holy ones
to execute judgement on all,
and to convict them of all their ungodly deeds
that they have done in an ungodly way,
and of all the harsh things ungodly sinners have said against Him.
Jude 14&15
The concept of hell originates in Jewish teaching so ancient it predates the flood, and thus the Ice Age. The fact that other cultures later displayed knowledge of these things is the result of knowledge that spread throughout the inhabited earth from the ancient Middle East, which was the crucible in which civilization was born.
reply posted on 29-7-2008 @ 04:37 AM by pause4thought
reply to post by Cyberbian
I enjoyed your sober response. It appears we've found some common ground.
What you say about the similarity between the valkerie and angels is actually not unique to the Norsemen. Tribes that have been contacted throughout the world over the last century possess certain knowledge handed down through the generations which accords with the Biblical world-view. It is such a regular phenomenon it staggers belief, from the Amazonian rainforest to the hinterland of Irian Jaya. A peaceful world whose original inhabitants became corrupt, a one, all-powerful God over all who decided to destroy all he had made in anger, a family that survived the ensuing flood, the need for the life of an animal to be offered in exchange for personal guilt, the coming of one who would turn the world back to its original state, and the need to prepare for an afterlife, whereupon each person would be judged and assigned an abode with God or with the demons.
There is much more that could be said. But suffice it to say I believe all this goes back to a time before the inhabitants of the world spread throughout the earth and developed distinctive national cultures and traits. You seem to have an interest in such things, and even in the ancient apocryphal writings. This is indeed a fascinating topic.
As to the accuracy of the extant words of Christ, I can only suggest we might discuss that further elsewhere, as it would take us off-topic. Be my guest, however, have a read of the following thread on that very subject here:
New Testament Documents - are they Reliable?
and by all means revive the discussion.
Just to round things off by addressing the specific question posed in the title of this thread, I challenge anyone to maintain that this issue is a laughing matter after watching the following videos:
I enjoyed your sober response. It appears we've found some common ground.
What you say about the similarity between the valkerie and angels is actually not unique to the Norsemen. Tribes that have been contacted throughout the world over the last century possess certain knowledge handed down through the generations which accords with the Biblical world-view. It is such a regular phenomenon it staggers belief, from the Amazonian rainforest to the hinterland of Irian Jaya. A peaceful world whose original inhabitants became corrupt, a one, all-powerful God over all who decided to destroy all he had made in anger, a family that survived the ensuing flood, the need for the life of an animal to be offered in exchange for personal guilt, the coming of one who would turn the world back to its original state, and the need to prepare for an afterlife, whereupon each person would be judged and assigned an abode with God or with the demons.
There is much more that could be said. But suffice it to say I believe all this goes back to a time before the inhabitants of the world spread throughout the earth and developed distinctive national cultures and traits. You seem to have an interest in such things, and even in the ancient apocryphal writings. This is indeed a fascinating topic.
As to the accuracy of the extant words of Christ, I can only suggest we might discuss that further elsewhere, as it would take us off-topic. Be my guest, however, have a read of the following thread on that very subject here:
New Testament Documents - are they Reliable?
and by all means revive the discussion.
Just to round things off by addressing the specific question posed in the title of this thread, I challenge anyone to maintain that this issue is a laughing matter after watching the following videos:
Google Video Link |
Google Video Link |
Who killed the prophet Muhammad? A 1400 year old murder mystery.
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