Challenge Match: GAOTU789 vs jasonjnelson: Canada vs The U.S.

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posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 11:41 AM
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The topic for this debate is "Since 1980, Canada Has Benefited More Than The United States By Having A Shared Border.”

GAOTU789 arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
jasonjnelson he con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

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The Socratic Debate Rule is in effect. Each debater may ask up to 5 questions in each post, except for in closing statements- no questions are permitted in closing statements. These questions should be clearly labeled as "Question 1, Question 2, etc.

When asked a question, a debater must give a straight forward answer in his next post. Explanations and qualifications to an answer are acceptable, but must be preceded by a direct answer.

Responses should be made within 48 hours. One single 48 hour extension can be used by a member by requesting it in the thread. If 48 hours passes without response, you may proceed with your next post. Members who exceed 48 hours run the risk of losing their post, but may still post up until their opponent has submitted their next response.

By the Fighters request, there will be a 72 hour weekend.

This is a challenge match. The winner will receive 2 ranking points, the loser will lose two ranking points.

[edit on 16-7-2008 by MemoryShock]




posted on Jul, 16 2008 @ 11:18 PM
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First off, a big thank you to MemoryShock for getting the ball rolling on this. Thanks to jasonjnelson for coming up with a great question and thanks to any and all who take the time to read this debate.

 


Since 1980, Canada Has Benefited More Than The United States By Having A Shared Border.

What is known as the "World's longest undefended border" is the 49th parallel or the Canada/US border.
Since the inception of the Dominion of Canada on July 1st, 1867, Canada and America have enjoyed a very peaceful coexistence. So much so that there isn't a need for a real armed presence at our mutual border crossings.
Yes, some of the Border Guards are armed but it isn't like trying to cross the border in many countries. I myself have crossed the border between our countries several times with not much more than a glance and a wave.

I will argue in this debate that my country, Canada, has benefited most from our mutual border, especially since 1980.

I'll touch on many different aspects of the benefits this shared border has provided us.

Economically, being the neighbour of the most prodigious free market, Capitalist country in the world has provided immense wealth and opportunity to Canadians. The different trade agreements enacted since 1980 have opened the borders between the two countries economically.
The wealth brought into Canada due to our energy production and subsequent sale to the US has also led to a major increase in wealth. So much so that the province of Alberta has done away with their provincial sales tax.

A major portion of our exports land in the US, which saves a lot of money for Canadian businesses in shipping costs that would be incurred if our goods were going overseas on a larger scale.These cost savings inevitably end up back in our economy. The economic benefits that Canada reaps will be one area which I will go into much greater depth as the debate continues.

There are so many other aspects that my country benefits from because of our neighbour to the south.
Militarily, culturally, technologically,socially, politically,etc, etc. I'll delve into these benefits also throughout the course of this debate.

Now, I'm not saying that this is a totally one sided relationship.

I mean come on, we gave America Celine Dion!!! If that isn't a benefit to Canada, I mean America, I don't know what is.

Seriously though, the benefit of this proximity to the United States can't be overstated.Our biggest trade partner being due south of us has led to unprecedented growth in the Canadian economy since 1980.


I'll end my opening by asking a few questions of my opponent.

Socratic question 1.
What do you feel is the largest drawback to Canada to being the neighbour of America?

Socratic question 2.
What is the largest benefit to America of having Canada as it's northern neighbour?

Socratic question 3.
In what way, if any, do you feel our countries benefit equally due to our Geographical locations?

Thank you.



posted on Jul, 19 2008 @ 01:52 AM
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I would like to take a moment and thanks my opponent for the unique opportunity to let me hone my debating skills. A special thanks to MemoryShock for setting up this debate, and moderating it. Cheers, and here's to an inspired debate!

Canada; America's security blanket

How fitting is it for our debate question, that the National Anthem of Canada, "O Canada!", was adopted in the year 1980. "The True North strong and free,", Indeed!

My opponent has been so kind, as to proclaim that his country, Canada, has benefitted from its border-mate, the U.S., more than we. I challenge that claim, however, and will set out to prove that by having Canada as our good neighbor to the north, we have in fact benefitted far more than our friends have from us.

My reasoning for this includes many issues; Our trade policies, our military alliance, our resource access, and our governmental allegiance, have all served to benefit the U.S. in the last thirty years. More importantly, there are many "intangibles" that the U.S. gains as well from our border.
The ability to claim that we are Canadian while abroad, a dual pricing system on all of our goods, and most importantly; Canada acts as a colander for immigration into the U.S. . Many professionals from Europe, Asia, and the Middle East are able to secure a foothold in Americas waiting room, Canada, before moving on south!

In the end, our mutual border has impacted the U.S. in a far more positive way than it has Canada.

Answer to my opponents questions;

1. What do you feel is the largest drawback to Canada to being the neighbour of America?

French Canada.

2.What is the largest benefit to America of having Canada as it's northern neighbour?

The greatest benefit, hands down, would be the cost of our border security, and military defenses, is markedly lower than it would be if we had a neighbor more like Mexico to our north, or even an aggressive country, like the now defunct U.S.S.R. It is also more successful than most would ever hope it could be in acting as a buffer in the world for our national security.

3. In what way, if any, do you feel our countries benefit equally due to our Geographical locations?

Having shared a very unique continent with our friends to the North, I would say that we both benefit equally from having access to both the Pacific, and Atlantic Oceans.

Socratic Questions for my opponent;

1. Haven't the environmental policies of the past 4 presidents greatly diminished the quality of life enjoyed by those in Canada?

2. Do the immigration policies of the United States help or harm Canada, as a whole?

3. Is the International reputation of Canada influenced negatively by it's unfortunate geographical attachment to the U.S.A.?



posted on Jul, 21 2008 @ 09:29 PM
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Since 1980, Canada Has Benefited More Than The United States By Having A Shared Border.

Reply one.

First I'll attend to my opponent's questions.

1. Haven't the environmental policies of the past 4 presidents greatly diminished the quality of life enjoyed by those in Canada?

I would have to say no although I could better qualify the answer if you had been more specific in which policies you are referring to.Some have been good others bad but the direct affect on Canadians is arguable.

2. Do the immigration policies of the United States help or harm Canada, as a whole?

I'm not sure how your immigration policies would have an affect on us.Again if you would like to discuss particular policies and there affects, please state them. These generalizations are too vague to provide a proper answer. Since I am required though to provide a direct one, it is no.
Canada has it's own immigration policies and whatever the US does as far as this issue goes doesn't really affect us one way or the other.
I assume his comment on Canada being Americas waiting room may have something to do with it but I'll wait to see the response of my opponent before addressing this.

3. Is the International reputation of Canada influenced negatively by it's unfortunate geographical attachment to the U.S.A.?

No, not at all. Actually this would be a great benefit to Canadian citizens abroad internationally. Not only are we know as peaceful and polite abroad, we are also known as "not American".

As you said yourself


The ability to claim that we are Canadian while abroad


And I would have to take you to task on that. Most Americans are too proud to claim to be Canadian abroad.



Alright, lets get to the meat and potatoes of this debate.

My country by far benefits more from being the neighbour of America.


Let's start with how it benefits us economically. The US is Canada's biggest trading partner.The trade between our countries is just over 50% of our GDP.

Our trade to the United States counts for about 80% of our exports. That it is a staggering number.
Everything from energy to services crosses our border to the US everyday almost without pause.

Lets look at our energy trade shall we and how this benefits Canada as a country.Firstly lets look at the numbers.


In 2006, Canada’s energy exports to the U.S. were valued at almost US$75 billion. Canada supplied 17 percent of U.S. imports of crude and refined oil products – more than any other country at over 2.3 million barrels per day.
Canada provided 86 percent of all U.S. natural gas imports and approximately one-third of the uranium used in U.S. nuclear power plants.


That stable market to the south allows us to ship our energy in it's many forms cheaply and easily. Imagine the cost to Canada if it had to ship most it's oil and gas products overseas.

source

Also our Uranium exports to the US save us alot of money. As the world's largest producer, again having the safe, stable market directly south of us gives us a huge advantage.




Now lets look at the agricultural trade. Canada being a Northern climate needs to import alot of fresh fruit and vegetables.
Our own domestic growing season isn't nearly long enough for our farmers to be able to provide enough and the variety that Canadians need. Having the United States, a geographically large and diverse country next door,
with the capability to grow and export these foodstuffs into Canada, is a blessing.

How much would it cost if we had to import all our fresh produce during the winter moths from Chile or Brazil? The price for these necessary items would become to much for the average Canadian to afford. With the known health benefits of the intake of fresh fruits and vegetables, having the United States right next is keeping Canadians healthy. That's a benefit to our whole society. Healthy citizens means lower health care costs,
increased productivity,which leads to a healthier economy and a happier populace, all thanks to our friends in America.

First the FTA and then the NAFTA trade agrement have opened the borders to Canada to exploit an immense, Capitalist driven market in our neighbours to the south.
We have managed to grow our exports and improve our trade surplus almost every year since 1980 with a few exceptions.

I'd like to address an issue with my opponent on one of his answers to my questions in his opening by asking my first question of this reply.

Socratic question 1.

Why do you feel French Canada is the largest drawback to having us as a neighbour?

I'll cover more of the benefits in my next reply. But it is clear that even just at an economic level, Canada benefits more from having the United States as a neighbour.



posted on Jul, 23 2008 @ 05:04 PM
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I apologize to my opponent. I am in the middle of typing my response, and I have to go handle something at work. I will be forced to take my 24 hour extension, tacked on to my opponents last post time.

I look forward to raising the level of this debate, as the gloves are now off.. (Oh yeah, I DID notice that you called me out canuck)



posted on Jul, 25 2008 @ 02:02 AM
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From sea to shining sea;


The Canadian /U.S. border extends for some 3145 miles(5061 km), and the distance proves in many ways why our Canadian cousins are a stronger benefit to our country, rather than the opposite.

1-Border security;
Compared to mexico, a border we share that totals 1950 miles (3,138 km), our costs for both terrorism defense, as well as immigration and trade management issues, have been nearly nothing. What do I mean by this argument? Well, with only two real borders in our country, the comparison must be made, and the assumption that it could be just as bad in the north as it has been in the south.

In 2001, the projected budget for maintaining the border between our countries was 1/30th that of the border between the U.S. and Canada.

The United States devotes less than $1 million a year to the task and much of the equipment, including some military surplus items, is outdated. Canadian counterparts work with a similar budget.

''We need to replace a lot of equipment that's just worn out. We have very few pieces of equipment that aren't worn out,'' said Kyle Hipsley, the agency's acting U.S. commissioner in Washington, D.C.

The 1,952-mile Mexican border is handled by a much larger agency, the International Boundary and Water Commission, which has a U.S. budget of $30 million. Its duties include flood control, sanitation issues and sharing of waters from the Rio Grande and Colorado rivers, in addition to marking the border.

source
The staffing along the border was also tremendously different;

There are 334 Border Patrol agents on the entire Canadian border, compared with 9,056 agents on the Mexican border, according to Callie Gagnon, spokeswoman for the Immigration and Naturalization Service in Vermont.

None of the suspects in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks is known to have crossed the border from Canada.


Whether it is due to our similarities in culture, or immigration standards, or even the handling of drug trafficking, the fact remains that Canada's border with the U.S. is a much friendlier and acrimonious relationship than we are getting elsewhere. At least, it could be much worse. (When using the Mexican Border as a comparison)

2-Monetary exchange

My opponent has pointed out that there is a great amount of trade between our two neighbors. But who really gains from this?

Canada-U.S. Trade Relationship

The relationship between Canadian and U.S. defense industries is part of a wider partnership of trade and investment between the two countries. The Canada-United States trading partnership is the largest in the world. Each country is the other’s largest trading partner: 80 percent of Canada’s merchandise exports go to the United States and 77 percent of its merchandise imports come from south of the border. On the American side, 22 percent of exports and 20 percent of imports are with Canada. Moreover, 68 percent of the foreign direct investment in Canada is U.S.-owned, and Canadian companies account for a large segment of foreign direct investment in the United States.

source

So it would seem that by sheer numbers, the Canadians must benefit from this relationship the most, right?
I believe that when we consider the value of our respective currencies, The U.S. has benefitted from this extension of our economy. The stability and guaranteed value of our trade with Canada has provided market opportunities to America even as the rest of the world has begun to seek favor with other emerging powers.

Exchange rate for canadian dollar
01/01/1980 0.85620

Exchange rate for canadian dollar
01/01/1990 0.86390

Exchange rate for canadian dollar
01/01/2007 0.85810


However when you compare the U.S. dollar against China or Europe, the same cannot be said. (I don't want to use up all my links, but you can follow my last to calculate the facts)
In the end, for the effect the that stability adds to our world-wide growth, the U.S. benefits the most. And as our ability to claim energy from other regions of the world, and the currency standards switch, this relationship will actually become detrimental to the Canadian people's!

Answer to Socratic Questions;

Why do you feel French Canada is the largest drawback to having us as a neighbour?

Simple;
Mayonnaise on our cheeseburgers. (seriously)

Questions for my opponent

1-Do you see these "Economic Benefits" Continuing as the dollar slides on the international market?

2-Which country benefitted most in regards to their respective geographical locations in the cold war between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R.?



Apologies to my opponent. Life called, and I appreciate his patience.

[edit on 25-7-2008 by MemoryShock]



posted on Jul, 27 2008 @ 10:21 PM
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Since 1980, Canada Has Benefited More Than The United States By Having A Shared Border.

Reply 2

Since 1980, our relationship with the US because of our shared border has provided many, many positives to Canada.
I started this debate discussing the Economic benefits Canada is afforded because of our geographical position. They are clearly a boon to our economy.

I'll answer my opponents first question since it relates to this very part of the discourse.

1-Do you see these "Economic Benefits" Continuing as the dollar slides on the international market?

No but that is irrelevant to this topic. The topic isn't discussing a future scenario but a near past and present one. I will say on this though that the damage that the slide of the US dollar is having on our manufacturing industry is going to be felt for many, many years to come.

I am going to continue a bit in this direction because there are a few other points that can be made.

The benefit to our economy because of the difference in the value of our currency since 1980 has been a huge boost to Canada.
My opponent shows you three different dates. First two show ten year differences. The third jumps to a 17 year difference. How come he
didn't keep with his ten year spread? Could it have been that this would have showed that on 1/1/2000, our dollar was trading at .65 cents to one USD?
No couldn't be. The fact is that our dollar, through most of the last three decades has traded at about .70 to 1 USD. There has even been periods where the exchange rate has got close to .55 cents to 1 USD.It has only been in the last year or so that our Canadian Dollar has gotten to parity with the US greenback.
I just used my opponents link to calculate random dates. Here's the link for one of them.

www.oanda.com...

That kind of exchange rate helped us out of our two recessions in the '80s and '90's. It has also helped us to attain the trade surplus that we enjoy today with our southern neighbours.Going forward, parity with the US Dollar will slow our economic growth but that has no bearing on this debate.

Let's move to adressing my opponent's next point.


1-Border security;
Well, with only two real borders in our country, the comparison must be made,
and the assumption that it could be just as bad in the north as it has been in the south.


We aren't dealing in assumptions, just facts. And the fact is, it is a benefit to America having us as your neighbour.
It is a bigger benefit to Canada though. With having the US to our south, we don't have to spend any near the amount of money that we would if had a less friendly or more aggressive neighbour. Also, since the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001, the budget for the American Border Services has jumped dramatically. Which again benefits Canada as we don't have to spend nearly as much on our end, knowing that America has beefed up there side. In fact, it has only been recently that Canada has even armed
our Border Guards.My opponent's link states that the US is spending 30 million on the Mexican Border for protection and 1 million on the Canadian border.

Well, that is a bit outdated I think.


U.S. Customs and Border Protection FY 2006 Budget
President Bush’s FY 2006 Budget for U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) Totals $6.7 Billion -- Nearly a 4.8% Increase



Which includes:

America’s Shield Initiative (ASI)
Totals $51.1 million for America’s Shield Initiative (ASI), including $19.8 million for new investments.
Additional Border Patrol Staffing
Provides $36.9 million for 210 additional Border Patrol Agents, directly supporting the strategic goal to increase and extend control of the borders between the ports of entry.
Border Patrol Aircraft Replacements
Adds $20 million to replace Vietnam era helicopters with 12 new helicopters.
The modernized aircraft is essential to continue air support to the ground units patrolling the vast border areas.



www.cbp.gov...

Now of course, this isn't all going to the Canada/US Border but it is a step up from the $1 million dollars my opponent quoted in spending.

Alright, I'll answer my opponent's next question, as it relates to my next point.

2-Which country benefitted most in regards to their respective geographical locations in the cold war between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R.?

Probably Canada as if TSHTF during the cold war, Alaska was first on the list. Alaska still is a part of the US yes? Seeing as the mostly likely scenario would have had the USSR
making it's first land based sorties in Alaska, the rest of the American Military would have been mobilized and a large contingent would have set up base in Canada to prevent any ground based Soviet troops from gaining a foothold
any further than Alaska. We would have gladly had American troops on our soil if meant that we weren't going to be invaded by the Soviets.
Again though, the cold war was almost over by 1980 and it isn't really relevant to the discussion.

Anyway, this does lead me to my next point, which is military benefits from our shared border.

The Canadian military has a very proud tradition. It could never be said that we wilt in the face of adversity or shrink from a challenge. Saying that though, having America next door has kept our Military Budgets down. As a maritime country, with an immense coast line, we should, by all rights, have one of the largest navies in the world, but we don't.
We don't have to. We have the American Navy to cover our shores.They aren't going to let anything happen to Canada. It would be against there best interests of having a safe and secure country to their north.
We can compare the two countries navies and see the difference. I'm not saying that Canada doesn't have an adequate Navy, I'm just saying that we don't need to have a navy of the size truly needed to defend our coasts.

Canadian Naval vessels

US Navy vessels

You can see by even quickly scanning those two links that our navy pales in comparison to the US. Which is one reason that we don't need a extra large navy. Our good friends to the south will compliment what we have.
The same argument goes for other branches of the Military also. It is only in the last 3 years that we have stared to spend significant amounts of money on our Military due to our active involvement in Afghanistan.
These savings in the almost 30 years since 1980 have let us invest in many other facets of Canada which is again, clearly a benefit to my country.

Lastly, I would like to pose a few questions to my opponent.

Socratic question 1.
Do you agree that having such a militarized country to our South is indeed a greater benefit to Canada?

Socratic question 2.
In relation to question 1, why or why not?

Socratic question 3.
Has America benefitted more politcally from having Canada as it's neighbour?

And to end this reply on more of a lighter note...


Answer to Socratic Questions;

Why do you feel French Canada is the largest drawback to having us as a neighbour?

Simple;
Mayonnaise on our cheeseburgers. (seriously)




Touche mate.



posted on Jul, 30 2008 @ 05:26 AM
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For my esteemed opponent;

I begin my second reply by first refuting a point my opponent has made.

1-Do you see these "Economic Benefits" Continuing as the dollar slides on the international market?

No but that is irrelevant to this topic. The topic isn't discussing a future scenario but a near past and present one.


I'm sorry, but I disagree with you on this point. Analyzing our respective economic situations requires us to recognize that money markets, investments, developments, and growth (positive or negative), all work in trends. Although one cannot assume the future of our respective economies, trends that are currently underway can and MUST be considered in any debate that carries it's time period forward to the present.

Under that premise, (which I believe to be accurate) I would maintain my argument, the crux actually, that in the current economic climate, Canada does not benefit from it's current relationship with the U.S. dollar. Since 1980, this relationship has proven to manage the effective rate of the Canadian Dollar, and with it's main exports all to the south, the current trends show that Canada will actually continue to be punished by it's ties to both American Markets, and the U.S. dollar. Hence my argument that the U.S. has benefitted most from this arrangement.
And to rebut my opponents accusation of manipulating my value data, this was due to my limit of 5 sources.

I will also answer my opponents questions first, as they also lead into my argument...

Socratic question 1.
Do you agree that having such a militarized country to our South is indeed a greater benefit to Canada?

Socratic question 2.
In relation to question 1, why or why not?


No, I do not agree, and here is why;

The Canadians, by way of an unfortunate geographical position, find themselves in a cross fire with any shooting war the U.S. could be in, except maybe Venezuela. Your argument that you benefit by having a military nearby as strong as ours is negates the fact that there are many successful countries that harbor less military than Canada, and NO powerful neighbors. Mastering the art of diplomacy erases such needs... Canada has less of a military, but could easily muster all that the U.S. does for them. However, I would argue that had it not been for the arms race that the U.S. initiated, there would be even less need for said protection for the Canadians.

The size of the Canadian navy has no bearing, as what would Canada need to defend against since 1980?

Holding down the Canadian Economy
As I pointed out in my opening to this post, since 1980, the need for certain resources, and their byproducts, has placed a huge demand on the countries that produce oil.

Canada Is the 8th largest producer of crude, within a half million barrels a day of 5th on the world list, but ships 99% of it's exports to the U.S.
www.nationmaster.com...

If the OPEC countries were to switch to a different monetary standard than the U.S. dollar for pricing oil, the price would soar through the roof in Euro's, and the U.S. dollar would plummet. With the canadians tied to the Americans, they would either have to allow their oil to plummet in value also, or seek alternative deals else where.

The U.S. benefits greatly from this scenario, more so than the savings the canadians make on the cost of fuel to ship their fuel.



Socratic question 3.
Has America benefitted more politcally from having Canada as it's neighbour?


I would tentatively say yes to this, however I believe the question too vague..

The truth is, the canadian people tend to act as a sounding board for many hot button topics, such as gay marraige, stem cell research, and Cannabis legislation.
The U.S. benefits tremendously, as most Americans would say that they easily identify with Canadians, (whether they actually know anything about Canadians is a different story) and can gauge the implementation of certain policies, feeling the outcome would be similar in our countries.

Socratic questions for my opponent;

1. Do you feel that the actions of the U.S. over the last 28 years will result in, or has resulted in, Canada becoming a casualty by association in the war on terror?

2.If yes, is this a worth while price to pay?

3. If not, can you see your country avoiding such an attack with it's connections to our country?



posted on Jul, 31 2008 @ 10:19 PM
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I'll have to call in my extension. Thanks for the patience.



posted on Aug, 2 2008 @ 12:14 AM
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Since 1980, Canada Has Benefited More Than The United States By Having A Shared Border.

Reply 3.

 


Rebuttal:

As my opponent stated, it is important to anaylze trends since 1980 til present. Where these trends go in the future, contrary to my opponents contention, have no bearing on this debate. The trends have been upward, with bumps along the way. To show this, let's look at the growth in Canada's GDP since 1980.




Canada’s productivity performance has improved significantly since 1997.
Our average annual productivity growth increased from 1.1 per cent between 1980 and 1996 to 1.7 per cent between 1997 and 2004.


www.fin.gc.ca...

As you can see, with the exception of the two recessions mentioned early, our GDP has been steadily climbing since 1980. So the trend is upwards.
I would also like to remind my opponent that the debate question is...

Since 1980, Canada Has Benefited More Than The United States By Having A Shared Border. It doesn't say will or is going to, it says has. So future speculation, as I mentioned, is irrelevant.


And to rebut my opponents accusation of manipulating my value data, this was due to my limit of 5 sources.

No accusation, I was pointing out for our readers and judges the fact that you cherry picked dates and data.


The Canadians, by way of an unfortunate geographical position, find themselves in a cross fire with any shooting war the U.S. could be in

You say cross fire, eh? If it came to the US actually being in a shooting war, we would be standing beside you, not ducking your bullets. Don't forget that. It is our continent too.


Mastering the art of diplomacy erases such needs


Up until very recently, that is what Canada has been known as; masters of Diplomacy. The bulk of our military deployments have been as UN peace keepers in everywhere from the Gaza strip to Bosnia to Cambodia. Our relationship with the states has allowed us to do that. A benefit of geographic location clearly. As a matter of fact, it was a Canadian who developed the UN peace keeping corps, the Blue Helmets.


Lester B. Pearson, the Canadian Secretary of State for External Affairs and then later the Canadian Prime Minister,
proposed the development of an international peace force under the United Nations. He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1957 for his visionary idea. Since this time, there have been over fifty United Nations peacekeeping missions of which Canada have been involved.

www2.ucdsb.on.ca...

This map is taken from that link also. Have a look at the hotspots around the world where Canada is deployed in peacekeeping missions...



Even in Afghanistan, we have NGO's working with UN mandates trying to rebuild schools, help farmers, feed villages, etc... Since 1980, Canada has been involved in many peacekeeping missions, those contributions have included both diplomatic and armed personal.

As you can see, we have a history of Diplomacy which we have been able to cultivate due to the lack of threats from hostile countries, which stems from our proximity to America. Again, a benefit to Canada.


The size of the Canadian navy has no bearing, as what would Canada need to defend against since 1980?


What would we need to defend against? With a coast that is 202,080 km(151,485miles) long, the longest BY FAR, you don't think we have anything to defend against? How about drug smuggling, illegal fishing, Arctic sovereignty, to name a few. I'm guessing you're from a land locked state and don't appreciate the significance of coastal security.


1. Do you feel that the actions of the U.S. over the last 28 years will result in, or has resulted in, Canada becoming a casualty by association in the war on terror?


No. We aren't a casualty neither directly nor by association. We have our part to play in this war on terror. I'll be straight forward with this reply, as I don't believe in obfuscating my position on this. This is one of the major drawbacks to being so closely related to America, there is no question about that. Saying that, I really don't believe that we are a casualty in this war on terror, we are an active participant, not a bystander.We lost citizens as well on 9/11, don't forget that. This may cause the proverbial chickens to come home to roost but that remains to be seen.


2.If yes, is this a worth while price to pay?

My answer was no.


3. If not, can you see your country avoiding such an attack with it's connections to our country?

I hope so. As long as intelligence sharing happens, we may. Again though, future happenings are not part of this debate.

Anyway, on with the show.

The next aspect I would like to touch on is a cultural one. Sports to be more specific.Our athletes have gained immensely from bordering on the States.
Look at the National Hockey League. In the 1980/81 season, the NHL grew again. They had seventeen teams and grew to 21. Between 81 and 2000, they have grown to 30 teams. This expansion has helped
Canadian kids realize a a dream we all have growing up in Canada of playing in the NHL. Right now there are about 750 rostered players in the NHL, with about 380 being Canadian. Thats far and away
the most for any Nationality. Without the growth of the league into the American market, the numbers would be different. With the salaries what they are at about 1.9 million dollars, that's a lot of money that comes back into Canada.
With only six teams presently, and eight being the historic high number of teams in Canada, these Canadian kids wouldn't have the opportunity to Play and make that kind of money, if it wasn't for the other 24 American teams.

Then there's America's pasttime, baseball. There aren't alot of Canadians playing in the Major's, but there a few. Of those who are currently playing and have played, there are alot of stars for the ratio of players. Currently,
the likes of Jason Bay,Ryan Dempster and Justin Morneau and historical players such as Larry Walker and Eric Gagne, these fellows have had the chance to shine because baseball is a part of the American culture. With the two teams from here, the Toronto Blue Jays and the Montreal Expos, who are now the Washington Nationals, baseball became a goal of kids in Canada. I can attest to this personally as my home town has one of the best little league and minor league baseball programs in Canada. You can see the explosion of baseball, and the quality of players from Canada after the Jays won back to back World Series in '92 and '93. It gave a whole generation of kids the hope and desire to play in the Big Leagues.
Toronto would never have had a MLB team if Canada was located next to Norway or Germany.

I'll ask my one question to finish this response.

Socratic question 1.
What are the cultural benefits to America with having Canada as a neighbour?

Thank you.



posted on Aug, 6 2008 @ 03:15 PM
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Reply 3

Pop Culture and Drug use

While my opponent has pointed out that there is a huge benefit to Canada regarding it's relationship with the U.S. and it's respective gains in professional sports. I would point out that the gains in sports are closely aligned with our shared popular culture. Since 1980, our movie industry and television productions have increased their on sight Canadian productions, and the exposure of such products on Canadian Markets as well.

How does this import of production money and commercial products not benefit Canada?

In the United States, there has been an alarming trend towards the abuse of illegal and illicit drugs. This trend also moved across the border. Through both exportation of pop culture, and actual product, the U.S. has contributed to both the costs of such drug problems, (prevention, prosecution, etc.) and the connected associations it carries (other crime), to our Canadian neighbors.

For example, the trends of drug use have almost perfectly matched the U.S.'s.



When we compare to the lifetime usage statistics of Canadians, these numbers almost perfectly line up..
www.hc-sc.gc.ca...-8
(sorry, can't link this, Table 4.6)

It seems to me as though Canada is not benefitting from our border in this respect.

As a matter of fact, Canadian drug traffickers are using loopholes in their own procurement of chemicals to produce some of the most dangerous drugs that exist on the market.

MDMA, a drug usually produced in Europe, has seen an increase in Canadian production, while the U.S. actually fell in that same category. Seeing as the larger market for these products are in the U.S., one could, and should, assume that if not for U.S. demand, this product would not be affecting Canadians in the same way.


In Canada, an increase in laboratory seizures over the last few years indicates increasing MDMA production, particularly in the provinces of British Columbia, Ontario and Quebec. All MDMA labs uncovered in Canada since 2000 were set up to produce multi-kilogram amounts. Canadian law enforcement dismantled 6 labs in 2000, 8 labs in 2001, 11 labs in 2002 and 12 labs in 2003.

Limited production of MDMA occurs in the United States; law enforcement officials dismantled 8 labs in 2000, 11 labs in 2001, 11 labs in 2002, and 7 labs in 2003. The production capabilities of these labs range from small amounts (gram quantities) to kilogram quantities.

Source

All of this is not withstanding the large increase in drug crimes and associated crimes. It seems, again, only natural when one can see that the largest portion of "hard" drugs all come from the U.S., excluding Heroin.


Illicit drug-related crime: Drug crime involves illicit substances such as possession and supply. In 1997, cannabis offences accounted for 7 in 10 of the reported 66,521 drug-related incidents. Cannabis offences grew steadily at about 6% annually since 1991. Continuing the downward trend since 1992, coc aine offences dropped in 1997 (-1.6%). After a large increase in 1996 (+8%) offences involving other drugs such as heroin and amphetamines increased by 1% in 1997. The highest level for drug-related offences is in the Yukon Territory, followed by Northwest Territory and British Columbia. Prince Edward Island has the lowest rate. In 1991 and 1992, 51 people were killed in connection with drug disputes. In 1992, 31% of those accused of personal robbery and 40% of those accused of commercial robbery were on a substance during the incident.

Drug-related Violence: Drug disputes, especially over dealing territories, give rise to violence and sometimes death. Without the level of gun possession seen in the United States, Canadian drug-related homicides remain low compared to its Southern neighbour. This has changed somewhat in Vancouver, due to an increase in territorial battles and in Quebec, with deaths involving bombing by biker gangs.

Drug Use and Correctional Service: The increasing numbers of drug users imprisoned over the last twenty years means that prisons are the single largest response to the drug problem in many countries. A 1989/90 study by Correctional Services Canada found that more than 10% of 371 prisoners used drugs every day in the 6 months before being incarcerated and 17% had regular drinking binges. Sixty-four percent of offenders said they used alcohol or drugs on the day of their crime. Studies in other countries found that 20-30% of prisoners injected drugs at least once a week before committing the crime that sent them to jail. More resources appear to be used in moving drug users through the criminal system than on any other form of management, medical or social.

Since the early 1970s, drug offences have accounted for more than a third of the growth in the incarcerated population and since 1980, the incarceration rate for drug arrests has increased 1,000 percent. Twenty-five percent of the new inmates in New York State are "drug only" offenders, with no record of other types of crimes. Canada has the highest number of drug arrests per capita of any nation other than the United States. There are currently about 1200 inmates serving time for drug-related offences in Canadian federal prisons (offenders who receive more than 2 years of confinement) and several thousand serving time for drug-related crime in the provincial system (less than 2 years). Canadian drug legislation and enforcement has been described as having "a bite worse than its bark".

Source
These drugs, and there related lifestyles, as conveyed even by our exported media, have resulted in a saddening state of affairs, all thanks to good old Uncle Sam...

And all in all, a pretty compelling reason to not have the U.S. as a neighbor.

My opponents Question;

What are the cultural benefits to America with having Canada as a neighbour?

To answer this, I can easily pick three things, most of them slanted to reflect personal tastes...

Canada has given us many popular Actors, (and assumed Americans)



Some of the Actors...
Aykroyd, Dan:Bain, Conrad: Bairstow, Scott: Bluteau, Lothaire :
Bochner, Lloyd:Burr, Raymond: Candy, John: Carrey, Jim: Carson, Jack: Chaykin, Maury:Chong, Thomas: Colicos, John: Cronyn, Hume: Doohan, James: Elliott, David James: Foley, David: Ford, Glenn: Fox, Michael J.:Fraser, Brendan: Frewer, Matt:
George, Chief Dan: Goulet, Robert: Greene, Graham: Greene, Lorne:
Greenwood, Bruce: Gross, Paul: Hartman, Phil: Hill, Arthur: Huston, Walter: Ireland, John: Ironside, Michael: Levy, Eugene: Lockhart, Gene: McCormack, Eric: McCulloch, Bruce: CMcDonald, Kevin: Comedian. MacDonald, Norm: McKinney, Mark: Mandel, Howie: Manners, David: Massey, Raymond: Moranis, Rick: Morse, Barry:Myers, Mike:
Neville, John: Nielsen, Leslie: Ontkean, Michael
erry, Matthew: Pidgeon, Walter:
Pinsent, Gordon: Plummer, Christopher: Priestley, Jason: Qualen, John:Reeves, Keanu:
Rubinek, Saul:


Actually, the list of musicians is too long to list, so I will point out that Rush, The Tragically Hip, Celine Dion, And "The Guess Who's", a band popular for it's anti-American Policy song, "American Woman", all hail from Canada, and have had influence on many Americans...

I can't even begin to mention the many Folk Bands, and live acts that I have seen perform in New York, as well as California, all whom carry a rich tradition, and represent Canada well....

Whether it be the all natural goodness that comes from growing up in their country, or whatever, I claim that the people of Canada are their greatest cultural export, one that has influenced generations of Americans...

Socratic Question;

Seeing as the gains made by Canada are also tainted by the negative impact of our own culture, do you believe Canada might have been better off attached to a country that has less cultural impact, even if it meant less trade?


note to my opponent;
I realize that switching tactics this late in the debate will not help me. I concede that while I was waiting to get my internet back, I figured that although you had me beat I had decided to use you for practice. I now realize just how good some of you old timers are. (I meant on ATS, not age) Thanks for your patience, and I hope to recover in my closing...lol.



posted on Aug, 8 2008 @ 09:54 PM
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Since 1980, Canada Has Benefited More Than The United States By Having A Shared Border.

Closing Statement.

First a short rebuttal of my opponents last reply.


Since 1980, our movie industry and television productions have increased their on sight Canadian productions, and the exposure of such products on Canadian Markets as well.


Yes they have. So much so that Vancouver and Toronto are know as Hollywood_North.


in 2006, film and TV spending in Ontario was $888 million.
In 2006, spending on film and TV production in B.C. was $1.228 Billion


That's just two cities. The American film and television industry spend billions of dollars every year in Canada. Thats a huge benefit.


In the United States, there has been an alarming trend towards the abuse of illegal and illicit drugs.


Well, I won't say I condone drug use but I will show how Canada has benefited from having the US as a neighbour.

Four words

"The War on Drugs

We have watched over the last thirty years as the Americans spearheaded this inane and wasteful so called war.
What exactly are they fighting? They put people who use soft drugs such as cannabis in jail for a long time. Some times for life under there
three strike rule. The entire war is directed at users. Not the dealers or the importers, users. History can tell us how well Prohibition works.
It works so well that organized crime rose to prominence because of it. The same thing is happening with drugs. The big time dealers and importers live like kings while the average joe who justs wants to smoke a joint to unwind fears spending years behind bars for it. The war is going so well that even the US government got in on the importing. We all remember the CIA plane that crashed with four tonnes of coc aine onboard.

From my opponents own quoted external material.


Since the early 1970s, drug offences have accounted for more than a third of the growth in the incarcerated population and since 1980, the incarceration rate for drug arrests has increased 1,000 percent.
Twenty-five percent of the new inmates in New York State are "drug only" offenders, with no record of other types of crimes.

bolding mine.

So one quarter of new inmates to the prison system in New York have no criminal record other than "drug crimes". I wonder how many of them are just users?
In Canada, there are a lot of drug convictions that don't result in a criminal record. Summary convictions usually result in fines and/or community service.
I wonder how often someone caught with a couple of grams of pot will get just a fine in America?

here's an interesting link about Americas "War on Drugs"

War on Drugs


The U.S. federal government spent over $19 billion dollars in 2003 on the War on Drugs, at a rate of about $600 per second. The budget has since been increased by over a billion dollars.


That quote doesn't do the link justice.

Now why does this benefit Canada?

It benefits us because we see the insanity of this war and learn from the many mistakes made by the US.
We have needle exchanges to help prevent the spread of HIV amongst inter venous drug users.
We don't put people away for life for simple possession.
We have a strong movement, with some Federal political backing to Decriminalize marijuana.
We see that a prevention method is more viable than the lock them up and throw away the key approach to drug users.
And believe it or not, the cops will let you walk away from an arrest for drug possession without charging you. It doesn't happen all the time but it does happen.

My opponent also mentions our actors and musicians as a benefit to America. All I will say about them all is that many, many of them
wouldn't have had a chance to shine the way they do if it wasn't for the US being where it is. Well at least not to the extent they have. It's a benefit to our nationals to have that market to ply their trade in.


As for Celine Dion, you may have her. Now THAT would be a true benefit to Canada.


Seeing as the gains made by Canada are also tainted by the negative impact of our own culture,
do you believe Canada might have been better off attached to a country that has less cultural impact, even if it meant less trade?


Honestly, no. It wouldn't matter where we are in thwe world, there would be negative impacts on our society.

Throughout the course of this debate, I have given you ample reasons to show that Canada has benefitted more for our geographic location to America.

I have shown you on a Economic, Cultural, Military, and even in the War on Drugs.
Our two societies are so intertwined that it easy to see that both benefit from our shared border. America gets much from us as well, there is no doubt about that.
Canada benefits from almost everything that America does. Even the vast amounts that the US spends domestically on the war on terror benfit us as it also provides us with an extra layer of security
that we don't have to invest in ourselves.

In the end, it easy to see that...

Since 1980, Canada Has Benefited More Than The United States By Having A Shared Border.

 


I would like to thank my opponent for this debate. Jason, you did well mate with the cards that were dealt you in RL during this debate.
Good luck in the tourney.

Thanks to MemoryShock for the stellar job he is doing moderating the debate forum in Vagabonds absence. My hat off to you mate. Its a big job but your up to the task.



[edit on 9-8-2008 by MemoryShock]



posted on Aug, 14 2008 @ 03:03 PM
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It has been 6 days since GAOTU789's posting, which is much longer than the 48 hour time limit.

jasonjnelson forfeits his Closing Arguement.

We are off to the judges...



posted on Aug, 16 2008 @ 04:48 PM
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I needed to come on to this debate and apologize to my opponent. I had a personal situation come up that ket me from the internet for a week, and I am extremely embarrassed. I would feel better had I actually performed in this debate at a level I wanted to, however, due to the aforementioned personal issue, I was unable to even do that.

My opponent is better than that, and I hope that he and the other members of this fine forum will allow me to redeem myself in the near future. Again, my apologies to both the Moderator and my opponent...

JasonJNelson



posted on Aug, 18 2008 @ 10:54 PM
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It was a great Fight, but there can be only won. By majority vote, GAOTU789 has taken this one. The Judges Comments....



Good battle. If I was to pretend like I was judging a boxing match, I'd go 10-8 in favor of GAOTU789.

Jasonjnelson put up a great fight, but GAOTU789's arguments were far too solid. I never saw any real rebuttals to GAOTU's talk of benefiting from close trade, exports, and a smaller military budget.

Meanwhile, jasonjnelson's argument that we saved more money but cutting down on our border budget to the north didn't do it for me.

GAOTU789 wins 10-8 in my book.




I read through the debate and I would have to say that GAOTU789 was the winner.





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