UFO Theories: Pros & Cons

Following the MUFON Report of the Stephenville incident of January 8, 2008, there's been much discussion on the possible origin of the unknown object tracked on radar and addressed by the report.

In an attempt to promote civil and rational discussion I suggest that we debate the possible origins, not of that object in particular – since that is ongoing in its own thread - but of UFOs in general.

As I'm sure all of you are aware, there are many theories on the origins of Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs). I will list the main ones:

• Military Black Projects
  
• Humans from the future
  
• Inter-dimensional, and
  
• Extra-terrestrial origin
  

Some people consider the Inter-dimensional possibility part of the Extra-terrestrial hypothesis (ETH), since, in effect, an inter-dimensional being would not be of this Earth. However, I would suggest that you take these possibilities as two distinct hypotheses.

So, when speaking of extra-terrestrial beings, it would mean beings that originate from somewhere in our (physical) Universe, while inter-dimensional beings would originate from some other dimension(s), somewhere not accessible to us, even if we had the means to explore all of our physical Universe in a spaceship.


In the attempt to critically think about our own ideas and theories, I suggest that people post a list of pros and cons of their favorite theory first, and then address other people's posts and points, if they wish to do so.

While I don't reject the other theories, the one I like the most is the Extra-terrestrial hypothesis. As an example I will list some pros and cons, which I see, for the ETH:

Extra-terrestrial beings
Pros

• the Universe is a big place; the chances of us being the only intelligent beings are small
  
• since the beginning of recorded history (be it written or through paintings) there are descriptions of beings and 'gods' that came from the heavens, long before man was able to fly.
  
• as humans study other animals here on Earth, it makes sense to me that extra-terrestrials would see an interest in studying us and our planet – which could be an explanation for many abduction accounts.
  
• the capabilities described and demonstrated by most UFOs defy our current (public) knowledge of physics and are beyond what, in my opinion, we can do.
  

Cons

• there has been no confirmation or evidence that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the Universe.
  
• the distances required to travel in space from other places are astronomical, that would either take too much time or require technology unknown to us.
  
• if aliens are visiting our planet why don't they present themselves to us?
  
• assuming there is a cover up of their presence, why would all the other countries and Governments participate in that cover up?
  

I will briefly address the other theories with a couple of points for each.

Military Black Projects
Pros

• would eliminate the need for extra-terrestrials, and all the complex issues associated with that possibility, to explain UFOs.
  

Cons

• the technology apparently employed in UFOs is in great orders of magnitude more advanced than what we currently and publicly have in latest and most state-of-the-art aircraft, and defy our current knowledge of physics.
  

Humans from the future
Pros

• could explain the likeness of the alleged beings in some abduction accounts.
  

Cons

• time travel is just a theory and it would create numerous and complex paradoxes.
  

Inter-dimensional beings
Pros

• could account for some of the high strangeness associated with UFOs and abductions; ships disappearing, beings walking through walls, etc.
  

Cons

• there has been no confirmation that more than 3 spatial dimensions exist; other dimensions are only theoretical.
  

I realize these theories are not mutually exclusive. In fact, the reality of UFOs and related phenomena could very well be a combination of all of them, and much more.

I, for one, have no doubt that we have incredible craft built in secret with technologies unknown to the public (Military Black Projects), but I do not believe it explains all UFOs, especially in earlier years.

Anyway, I hope that you find this thread interesting and that it motivates you to participate in a civilized and constructive manner, in order to get some rational and serious conversation going.

Thank you.

I take into consideration that in 3 of your categories (ET's, Dimensional Beings and Future Humans) all have one thing in common: a severe lack of verifiable testable evidence, the KEY requirement to coming even close to establishing proof. That in itself gives me great enough pause to go much further.

Not saying that the lack of evidence is evidence of absence but to move towards using these as an answer for why unidentified objects are interpreted like they are by people observing them, without verifiable evidence, its all speculation.

There is however, evidence that the military will go to very extreme lengths to misinform the public about or keep very secret the details of black projects and their uses/capabilities/existence. I will always allow that humans are very capable of creating what most would consider science fiction at first glance. We arent as stupid as many would want to think, not all of us anyway.

Also you didnt mention that a sizable portion of "UFO's" are quite simply misidentified, very terrestrial, obnoxiously normal things.

Good thread, wish I could slap some applause on ya...

EDIT to throw in a point I lost somewhere...


[edit on 14-7-2008 by Lost_Mind]

Oh boy your thought processes are very heady.

You have not had personal experience have you?

I am not talking about Unidentified Military craft, or twinkling lights in the sky that dance and sway.

You obviously do not nor have close relations that have been in the AF or any other service in the higher ups. Pilot, nope that's not you either.

Well, there are some here that have had more than their share of disclosure, real life exposure to that which is still debated.

Does that validate that there is something more going on than you have been allowed to experience or witness? No. But like so many others in dwindling numbers, are still in the dark left to 'debate'. Best to you and this interesting thread.

Originally posted by Lost_Mind
I take into consideration that in 3 of your categories (ET's, Dimensional Beings and Future Humans) all have one thing in common: a severe lack of verifiable testable evidence, the KEY requirement to coming even close to establishing proof. That in itself gives me great enough pause to go much further.

Thank you for your reply Lost_Mind

I hope like my thread didn't gave the impression that these must be the answers and there can't be anything else, because that was and isn't my intention at all.

My intention is only to get a serious and rational discussion on the major UFO theories. That's it

Also you didnt mention that a sizable portion of "UFO's" are quite simply misidentified, very terrestrial, obnoxiously normal things.

I agree that I should have specified that, because I personally believe that the majority of UFO sightings are indeed misidentifications.

This mental exercise that I ask people to join me in, is already having those misidentifications in consideration and 'filtered'.

Basically I should've said: taking into consideration all the misidentifications and hoaxes, what is or are the theories that you believe that address UFOs and related phenomena more efficiently?

Thank you for your words again Lost_Mind

reply to post by antar

Thank you for your post antar

I haven't had any personal experience, other than seeing unidentified craft and twinkling lights in the sky that dance, no.

This thread is not intended to be a search for the truth - as that would be incredibly absurd and arrogant - but merely a serious and rational discussion of the major UFO theories.

Why? Well, because otherwise everything will be even more subjective. And it's not that I have anything against that, but there are already many threads focusing on those experiences and approaches.

I appreciate your participation antar. Thank you

Originally posted by danx
This mental exercise that I ask people to join me in, is already having those misidentifications in consideration and 'filtered'.

Basically I should've said: taking into consideration all the misidentifications and hoaxes, what is or are the theories that you believe that address UFOs and related phenomena more efficiently?

I personally will never be able to get my head past what my personal life experiences will allow. Not to say that I dont speculate, I do, a lot. I simply dont use that speculation to come to conclusions.

My puny little dreams and wishes have absolutely nothing to do with discovering what this phenomena is about, period. They have no place where facts and verifiable eveidence MUST reign supreme. That is why I cant come to any conclusion but for the one humans are responsible at this point in time. I base this on historical trends throughout humanity to lie and keep secret very wondrous things. The militaries of the world have always had an explicit need to keep certain technologies hidden or at minumum keep the public misinformed about. I will reserve the right, though, to adjust my thoughts on this as said verifiable evidence is presented.

Having said that I am left with the warming thought that humans are responsible for the lions share of sightings, even the mindblowing ones. As a human (yay!) I am very proud of that likleyhood.

reply to post by Lost_Mind

My puny little dreams and wishes have absolutely nothing to do with discovering what this phenomena is about, period. They have no place where facts and verifiable eveidence MUST reign supreme. That is why I cant come to any conclusion but for the one humans are responsible at this point in time.

Let's take the Bentwaters Case for example. An object dripping molten metal and then exploding into 5 smaller objects which fly away at silent unearthly speeds. Unless you think the witnesses are lying, how can you honestly feel that object is manmade?

If I take that particular story at face value, I'm forced to conclusions like nanotechnology and molecular conversion. Is this pure speculation? Sure. Does it sound like science fiction. You bet. Still, I can't sit here and look at the data and honestly say it's manmade. I look around this world and am amazed at what our species has accomplished.... But I know we can't make things like that yet.

I can't tell you what it is or where it comes from. I don't believe your government can either. Then again, I can't really give you a good explanation as to what reality is or where it comes from. Hence the saying- Life's a mystery.

Great idea for a thread in light of the MUFON report and the various posts that sprang from that one.

My favorite theories are the first two you stated.

UFOs could be all military experimental craft:
PRO:

1) I think this could explain a lot of sightings, particularly the "triangle" UFO's. As far as I have read and seen footage of them, I might be wrong, but I haven't read or seen anything about them having such advanced maneuvering that military aircraft can't be ruled out IMO.

2) I myself have been fooled by ordinary military/non military aircraft. The photo I posted of the object captured in a shot of the lunar eclipse turned out to be nothing more then a long shutter time and an ordinary plane flying into the photo.

CON:

1)The triangles are sometimes purported to be "soundless." I am not sure if that's advanced beyond our technology capabilities yet or not...so there is a little tiny doubt that they might not be military craft.

2)There are well documented sightings of objects that can't be explained back in the 50's and before, that for SURE could out-fly and out-maneuver everything anyone had at the time. There's that famous case in Texas that was posted on ATS not too long ago I think by Frank Warren about the object that people saw flying over a small town in Texas before we even had airplanes. I am sure we all know lots of examples of objects from the way distant past like this one.

UFOs could be extraterrestrial visitors:

PRO: You named all the good pros for this one. I'd just like to add that since we don't know how many are due to the first one, military, it's certainly hard to speculate about this IMO. Hence why UFO discussions and sightings and footage become so heated sometimes. We have members on ATS that are convinced through their own "contact" experiences, and or that have seen things that the rest of us haven't etc that are completely convinced that UFOs are sometimes due to alien contact.

CON: It's hard for the rest of us who haven't experienced so much as a sighting, or that have such as I have, and still aren't convinced completely and like you stated, there is no crashed saucer in a museum we can look at and study, and no overt alien landing for all the world to see etc.

IMO the other 2 are so speculative that until our technology advances in a huge way, they are hard to even consider, for me at least. Not that I think it's impossible to have more then 3 dimensions, I think string theory is purporting up to 17 or 18 etc. As far as time travel goes I don't know enough about physics to even consider this theory.

Starred and flagged, I eagerly await everyone else's posts

[edit on 14-7-2008 by LateApexer313]

[edit on 14-7-2008 by LateApexer313]

[edit on 14-7-2008 by LateApexer313]

Originally posted by LateApexer313
Great idea for a thread in light of the MUFON report and the various posts that sprang from that one.

My favorite theories are the first two you stated.
UFOs could be all military experimental craft:

Thank you so much for your reply and post

Some people believe there are no aliens, or at least no aliens visiting Earth, therefor making UFOs exclusively either misidentifications or Military Black Projects. We saw a couple of people that have this stance on the Stephenville MUFON Report thread.

I have trouble accepting that possibility for a couple reasons, one of them being the abduction scenario and other high strangeness accounts.

Not only the Military (or whoever) would have had to have incredible technology for many decades, but they would have had to also, have fabricated or simulated the abductions, as I don't believe everyone who claims to have been abducted is lying.

What's your view on abductions? Do you think it would have been possible to have fabricated and simulated those abductions?

Thank you in advance.

reply to post by danx


I flip flop like Obama and McCain at election time on abductions

I don't know anyone personally that claims to be an abductee. I find it hard to believe as well that every single person who claims this is lying, suffering from sleep disorders or paralysis, and/or hallucinating or purposely hoaxing it.

I have read a few accounts of abductees passing lie detector tests. I think Whitley Strieber passed one, I remember seeing it in the back of his first book he wrote about his experiences. But then again, who administered it? Was it real? Anyone could fabricate a printed report.

There are stories I have read about people living in the heart of Manhattan and other huge cities and being abducted out of skyscrapers or large apartment buildings, and I have to wonder...didn't anyone SEE anything? I don't know, it's hard for me to wrap my mind around. I think if I had a close, close friend or relative who I could believe 100% I would give it more credence then I do now.

There was a MUFON study that I read about recently...that they were going to "show the results of it" at one of their symposiums...and that was to somehow set up cameras and other monitoring equipment in a cross section of admitted abductees bedrooms in the hopes of getting some sort of evidence and it made me think, why the heck don't all the abductees do that that have the means? I sure as heck would if I was one of them...anyway...those are my opinions on it, seems like too many people to discount, just like too many sightings to discount totally the theory that some are extraterrestrial.

What are your opinions on the abductee issue?

Originally posted by LateApexer313
There are stories I have read about people living in the heart of Manhattan and other huge cities and being abducted out of skyscrapers or large apartment buildings, and I have to wonder...didn't anyone SEE anything?

I think this might be that case you are referring to, or at least one of them.

That one gets even more weird with the third parties involved.

I don't know, it's hard for me to wrap my mind around. I think if I had a close, close friend or relative who I could believe 100% I would give it more credence then I do now.

That's one of the problems I have also. Some of the things in abduction cases or just contact with alien beings are so weird, and absurd even, I have trouble believing in.

But then why would people make up things that are so absurd that makes it more difficult for others to believe in it? If they were making it up it seems counterproductive to come up with these details.

Anyway I believe some people really had legitimate experiences, but overall I'm very suspicious of abduction cases.

a theory i'm a big fan of is that Aliens have a coalition with other Aliens not to interfere with human endeavors.

I think if there are multiple alien races, then politics would have to be involved.

They agree not to interfere with humans as a developing species, except for worst case scenarios such as pre-emptive strike on missiles that could lead to nuclear wars etc.

Original thread on the subject:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Check-out my free-to-read paper at The Serious New Ufology Institute: www.ufoinstitute.org...
It is titled 'Beyond the Living Myth and From Serious Old Ufology to Serious New Ufology'.

You can also check out the Paracast Radio program I was on (A U.S. based show) at the same page... albeit I hate doing radio! ... wish someone else could do that bit for me.

Also IF you at all like what I say look out for THE SERIOUS NEW UFOLOGY MAGAZINE... starts September. In that magazine will be a main essay titled 'Early Innovations in Serious New Ufology'. One of the innovations we have had concerns the Living Myth aspect of what we say. 100% definite statements are impossible when considering answering WHAT ARE THEY? (i.e., what are the UFO's?) Hence all that we can do is think hard and make educated guesses. Hence we still might be spouting fiction. So we may still be immersed in too much science fiction/myth. HOWEVER, when puzzles are solved it is thanks to hypotheses and hard thinking... so educated guesses derived from hard thinking are necessary. My point here though is that even if we try and go beyond the myth we are likely to fail to do so... so we cannot go totally beyond the living myth but we are right to try and do so.

Paul Budding.

I don't even think UFO ships are military as they are not weapons yet.
The ships are owned by builders like any corporation that builds a
weapon of great potential and wishes to sell it to the government.
In the mean time the government and Armed Services protect the
ship and identities of workers that service and recover the crashes.

reply to post by danx
Hi

I am wondering whether or not you regard yourself as a Skeptical Insider within the Ufology Community? i.e., someone who thinks that Ufology has a function in modern culture BUT whom is skeptical of claims concerning ET nuts n bolts craft visitation. If the answer to that is YES then I would like to hear from you if you would like to contribute material towards Serious New Ufology Magazine... and hence... get yourself read by some within the Ufology community.

The first issue of Serious New Ufology Magazine is out in September.

Paul Budding.
The Serious New Ufology Institute: www.ufoinstitute.org...

reply to post by danx

Military Black Projects
Humans from the future
Inter-dimensional,
and Extra-terrestrial origin

If I may build a bit...

There is also a chance that all UFOs are not created equal. There is some evidence to support the theory that at least some portion of aerial phenomena are biologic creatures. From there, it forks off to whether these critters are like honey bees that harvest DNA (cattle mutilations, etc) to then spread across the galaxy or whether they simply live in the extreme upper reaches of our atmosphere... what we refer to as low earth orbit.

I liked you definition of ETs because you can incorporate the divine into this category as well. If one believes that God created the world, then we know He existed prior to its conception and is therefore not native to it. Same goes for angels and demons and the like.