Why do you think people join the Freemasons?

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
I lived in urban areas in California my entire life and have not come across many masons, nor have I noticed many lodges or other masonic activities.

Going to the Grand Lodge of California website and doing a search for lodges within 20 miles of Los Angeles I get 52 results. I'd say that's a decent enough presence for an urban area of California. Or would you want more? Grand Lodge of Illinois lists 10 lodges in the Chicago city limits and about 60 in neighboring cities and suburbs. (Grand Lodge of New York doesn't have an easy lodge-finder that I can see.) Let's see... 4th largest city in the country is Houston, right? Grand Lodge of Texas lists 28 in the city of Houston; 48 in Harris county. How far would you like me to go? Just because you live in an urban area and are not aware of Masonry within its bounds, doesn't mean it's not there...

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
reply to post by Malevolent_Aliens

 

The problem is that the court oath, which is "..so help me God." actually is a death oath. If you look at the history behind it, its the equivalent of saying "may God strike me dead if I am not telling the truth."

Additionally, the Bible does not say you are not to swear. It says:

Matt. 5:34-7 But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

Taken in context, the verse means that Christians should live their lives such that there is really no need to swear. If you are honest in all things, your yes will always be yes and your no will always be no. It does not mean oaths are not allowed, only that you should live your life in such a way that there should never be any question about anyone's capability to discern what you mean - regardless of not an oath is involved.

However, if anyone takes the stance the bible says you can't take oaths, then they can't be married or go to court. It never distinguishes between types of oaths.

[edit on 13-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

You reasoning is twisted.

So help me God, is not a death oath. Yawn

There is no danger in saying "So Help Me God"

There is a big difference between "So Help me God" in comparison to

Swearing a real physical death oath where people can actually kill you if you break that oath.

Taking other oaths are irrelevant as you do not swear by your life on any other oaths out there.

The scripture you found clearly states not to swear by anything, that does not mean general oaths but can be applied to swearing death oaths.

Look, I know you will never give up your argument no matter what I write.

So I will say that "Making a secrecy vow, swearing any death type oath"

IS WRONG,

Plain and simple regardless of what the religion, group, purpose!

It is just wrong! I think that if Jesus was hear he would say exactly the same thing. Just review his words and you can see that is what he meant and deaths oaths are very applicable to that scripture.

Think About It.

Deep Thoughts By Jack Handy...

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
reply to post by JoshNorton

 

Similarly, while there are masons from every segment of society, it should be safe to say that a disproportionately high amount of masonic members come from a certain segment of society. I lived in urban areas in California my entire life and have not come across many masons, nor have I noticed many lodges or other masonic activities. I would imagine that in other parts of the country there may be a higher concentration of lodges and masonry may be more visible.

It's one of those things that you never really pay attention to unless you're a mason. Just about every single town, no matter how small has a masonic lodge, unless you're a member you really don't pay attention to it. When I joined here in Hagerstown, I was kind of surprised how a lot of my friends and family had no idea where the Masonic Temple was. Eventhough it's a very impressive stone facade building right off the city square and it's been there for over a 100 years. Most people really don't care and walk right by it every single day.

Take care,

Michael
Hagerstown, MD

Originally posted by Malevolent_Aliens
There is a big difference between "So Help me God" in comparison to

Swearing a real physical death oath where people can actually kill you if you break that oath.

OK, short of the Morgan Affair and P2 (in both cases, the Masons were acquitted...) can you cite any case were someone was actually killed because they broke a Masonic oath? It's symbolic, not actual, and all parties involved know it. In fact, some Grand Lodges have changed the wording to the effect of "if I break this oath may all the world know what a dishonorable coward I've been" or something similar. But I can't find a single case where the traditional Masonic penalties were ever taken literally.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by Malevolent_Aliens
There is a big difference between "So Help me God" in comparison to

Swearing a real physical death oath where people can actually kill you if you break that oath.

OK, short of the Morgan Affair and P2 (in both cases, the Masons were acquitted...) can you cite any case were someone was actually killed because they broke a Masonic oath? It's symbolic, not actual, and all parties involved know it. In fact, some Grand Lodges have changed the wording to the effect of "if I break this oath may all the world know what a dishonorable coward I've been" or something similar. But I can't find a single case where the traditional Masonic penalties were ever taken literally.

It never ceases to amaze me the willing blindness of anti-Masons with an agenda who overlook the component of the obligation that immediately follows the traditional penalty "or the more effective punishment of being branded a wilfully perjured individual, void of all moral worth and unfit to be received into this or any other worthy and warranted Lodge or the society of men who honour virtue and morality above the external advantages of rank and fortune".

So, dishonour more effective than Death? Sacrilege! Perish the thought that calling someone who violates his obligation a dishonourable wanker would be preferable to cutting his throat. Just isn't so sexy to anti-Masons.

Originally posted by Malevolent_Aliens
You reasoning is twisted.

Your lack of knowledge is disturbing. I suppose all of the religious scholars are just so twisted on that. What would they know about interpreting the Bible...

Originally posted by Malevolent_Aliens
So help me God, is not a death oath. Yawn

I highly advise you to do your research. It is well known that the use of "So help me God" has origins in swearing to tell the truth so that God would not "punish you" by killing you and sending you to hell. This is not a death oath? Your basically swearing to tell the truth, else your going to hell. Again, do your research.

Originally posted by Malevolent_Aliens
There is no danger in saying "So Help Me God"

I agree. Just as there is danger in no masonic oath, or any other oath a Christian makes.

Originally posted by Malevolent_Aliens
There is a big difference between "So Help me God" in comparison to

WRONG! It is the same in effect - you are swearing that you will perform your duties as ordered and if not, God can send you to hell (the final death). No difference, in fact, Masonry's are probably less harsh.

Originally posted by Malevolent_Aliens
Look, I know you will never give up your argument no matter what I write.

On this? Quite correct, because you are blatantly wrong and in complete denial about it.

Originally posted by Malevolent_Aliens
So I will say that "Making a secrecy vow, swearing any death type oath"

IS WRONG,

GREAT! I am so glad you've cleared this up for me. There is just one problem. Your opinion holds no authority over me, so I really don't care what proclamations you make. The only opinion that matters to me is in the Bible, which says your wrong, and as such I'm afraid I'm going to trust it over you.

Meanwhile, back on the OP's topic...

I think the vast majority of those who become Masons do so because someone who was important to them in the course of there life was a Mason. Maybe it's their dad or granddad, but it could just as easily be a mentor at work or someone at church.

The example of this person inspires them with a desire to improve themselves and becoming a Mason, joining the organization that meant/means a great deal to the man they admire, seems a reasonable and effective step.

Masons say they don't recruit -- but, of course, there is no better recruiting tool than the example of a life well lived.