What Muslims DON'T Tell You

So, you're basically saying Muslims are monsters?

I think that's pretty unfair and rather offensive.

To be honest, I don't know much about the religion, but I know that the Muslim people are not monsters.

My landlady is actually Muslim, and she is a co-founder of the Progressive British Muslim group, and is actually one of the lovliest people i've ever met, and a very sucessful lawyer in London.

Here is the link that explains the PBM.

Still think they are all monsters?

Judaism=Christianity=Islam

They're all basically just different takes on the same religion, and the Koran is pretty much the new New Testament.

These problems aren't isolated to Islam, but rather religion in general. Why? Because they were written thousands of years ago. The updated version of these teachings is called the "legal system", and it is constantly being updated.

The reason why people don't ditch their old religion in favor of this new set of teachings is because it has become heavily ingrained into their culture. It's the same reson why they don't knock down heritage listed buildings to make way for skyscrapers.

Peace in the Name of God Almighty!

Yet again another thread spreading misconceptions about Islam. Muslim women do not feel degraded and do not feel inferior to men, and most especially they are not offended by God's precepts which He has laid down in the Holy Quran which are just the exact precepts about women in the Torah and the Gospel. God's law are unchanging, trails of messengers have come but just with the same message about the worship of ONE GOD. Whoever teaches another doctrine that seeks to divert worship for the ONE TRUE GOD, is teaching idolatry and is a false prophet.

Let us look back to our roots to have a deeper understanding why God has made woman inferior to man and what is God's wisdom behind this, not that we should ever question God's wisdom if we truly fear God since wherefore according to Jesus is the gate of Hell. This is part of the Gospel that God has given to Jesus.

Satan presented himself before the woman like a beauteous angel, and said to her: 'Why do you not eat of those apples and corn? Eve answered: 'Our God has said to us that [if we] eat [them] we shall be unclean, and he will drive us from paradise.'

Satan answered: 'He does not speak the truth! You must know that God is wicked and envious, and suffers no equals, but keeps every one as a slave. [This is] why he has said this [to you]; in order that you may not become equal to him. But if you and your companion do according to my counsel, you shall eat of those fruits as [you eat] of the other [fruits], and you shall not remain subject to others but like God you shall know good and evil, and you shall do whatever you please, because you shall be equal to God.'
Then Eve took and ate of those [fruits], and when her husband awoke she told [him everything] that Satan had said; and he took and ate the fruit [when] his wife offered them to him. But, as the food was going down, he remembered the words of God, and, wishing to stop the food, he put his hand into his throat, where every man has the mark.

Then both of them knew that they were naked, and, being ashamed, they took fig leaves and made a clothing for their secret parts. When midday was passed, God appeared to them, and called Adam, saying: 'Adam, where are you?' He answered: 'Lord, I hid myself from your presence because my wife and I are naked, and so we are ashamed to present ourselves before you.'

Then God said: 'And who has robbed you of your innocence, unless you have eaten the fruit [that makes you] unclean, and will not be able to abide [any] longer in paradise?'

Adam answered: 'O Lord, the wife whom you have given me [urged] me to eat [it] and so I have eaten it.' Then God said to the woman: 'Why did you give [this] food to your husband?' Eve answered: 'Satan deceived me, and so I ate [the fruit].' 'And how did that reprobate enter into [the garden]?' said God. Eve answered: 'A serpent that stands at the northern gate brought him near to me.'

Then God said to Adam: 'Because you have [listened to] your wife and have eaten the fruit, cursed be the earth in your works; it shall bring forth brambles and thorns for you, and you shall eat bread by the sweat of your face. Remember that you are earth, and to earth you return.' And he spoke to Eve, saying: 'And you who did [listen] to Satan, and gave the food to your husband, shall abide under the dominion of man, who shall keep you as a slave, and you shall bear children with travail.'

***
The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has great respect for women, and his teachings about women can be found in the Sunnah which God has taught the Holy Prophet.

Of Women

The world and all things in it are valuable, but the most valuable thing in the world is a virtuous woman.

I have not left any calamity more hurtful to man than woman.

A Muslim can not obtain (after righteousness) anything better than a well-disposed, beautiful wife: such a wife as, when ordered by her husband to do anything, obeys; and if her husband look at her, is happy; and if her husband swear by her to do a thing, she does it to make his oath true; and if he be absent from her, she wishes him well in her own person by guarding herself from inchastity, and taketh care of his property.

Verily the best of women are those who are content with little.

Admonish your wives with kindness; for women were created out of a crooked rib of Adam, therefore if ye wish to straighten it, ye will break it; and if ye let it alone, it will be always crooked.

Every woman who dieth, and her husband is pleased with her, shall enter into paradise.

That which is lawful but disliked by God is divorce.

A woman may be married by four qualifications: one, on account of her money; another, on account of the nobility of her pedigree; another, on account of her beauty; a fourth, on account of her faith; therefore look out for religious women, but if ye do it from any other consideration, may your hands be rubbed in dirt.

A widow shall not be married until she be consulted; nor shall a virgin be married until her consent be asked, whose consent is by her silence.

When the Prophet was informed that the people of Persia had made the daughter of Chosroes their Queen, he said The tribe that constitutes a woman its ruler will not find redemption.

Do not prevent your women from coming to the mosque; but their homes are better for them.

O assembly of women, give alms, although it be of your gold and silver ornaments; for verily ye are mostly of hell on the day of resurrection.

The Holy Quran is God's words, the Final Testament to mankind, who are we to question God's wisdom in His Creation? Let me leave you with some advice from Jesus regarding the subject.

Then said John: "Now, how shall we abandon the "Wherefore," seeing that it is the gate of knowledge?" Jesus answered: "No, rather the "Wherefore" is the gate of hell." Thereupon John kept silence, when Jesus added: "When you know that God has said a thing, who are you, O man, that you should say, "Wherefore have you so said, O God: wherefore have you so done?" Shall the earthen vessel, perhaps, say to its maker: "Wherefore have you made me to hold water and not to contain balsam?" Truly I say to you, it is necessary against every temptation to strengthen yourself with this word, saying "God has so said"; "So has God done"; "God so wills"; for so doing you shall live safely." AMEN.

[edit on 4-7-2008 by queenofangels_17]

reply to post by Cthulwho


Cthulwho,

You are indeed right in saying that the Holy Quran is like the new New Testament, to be exact it is the Final Testament of God to mankind sent through the Final Messenger and Seal of all the Prophets.

These are the words of Jesus taken from his Gospel, testifying about the Prophet Muhammad.

Truly I say to you, that every prophet when he is come has borne to one nation only the mark of the mercy of God. And so their words were not extended save to that people to which they were sent. But the Messenger of God, when he shall come, God shall give to him as it were the seal of his hand, insomuch that he shall carry salvation and mercy to all the nations of the world that shall receive his doctrine. He shall come with power upon the ungodly, and shall destroy idolatry, insomuch that he shall make Satan confounded; for so promised God to Abraham, saying: "Behold, in your seed I will bless all the tribes of the earth; and as you have broken in pieces the Idols , O Abraham, even so shall your seed do."

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the ONLY seed of Abraham in which this promise of God has come to pass. Recorded in the History of Islam were the breaking of the Idols in the Kaaba by the Holy Prophet Muhammad.

Blessed are the people who has believed in his testimony and has declared him as a Messenger of God for they will not be ashamed in Day of Judgment, when all the messengers will be called to testify their truthfulness and to be witness against mankind who has contaminated God's words through the workings of Satan. The Gospel of Jesus was the most contaminated and Jesus himself has won a curse from God for the people who will believe that he is God or son of God. These are the teachings of Satan and Jesus and his disciples will be a witness against them in the Day of Judgment.

Jesus was sent with the Gospel to the Children of Israel in his time, whoever believed in his teachings (his true followers) have been promised Paradise by God, they were persecuted and killed and Jesus' true teachings died with them. The Children of Israel rejected him and seek to kill him but they did not succeed, because God saved him from this death of ignominy as was testified by the Holy Quran.

4:157 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture ; they slew him not for certain.

These are God's words and is supported by the True Gospel of Jesus where God spoke through Jesus of His wrath upon the Children of Israel.

Then Jesus, knowing that his hour was near, said: 'Call the sick, as many as there be, because God is mighty and merciful to heal them.' They answered: 'We know not that there be any other sick folk here in Jerusalem.'

Jesus weeping answered: 'O Jerusalem, O Israel, I weep over you, for you know not your visitation; because I would fain have gathered you to the love of God your creator, as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not! Wherefore God says thus to you, O city, hard-hearted and perverse of mind, I have sent to you my servant, to the end that he may convert you to your heart, and you may repent; but you, O city of confusion, have forgotten all that I did upon Egypt and upon Pharaoh for love of you, O Israel. Many times weep you that my servant may heal your body of sickness; and you seek to slay my servant because he seeks to heal your soul of sin.

Shall you, then, alone remain unpunished by me? Shall you, then, live eternally? And shall your pride deliver you from my hands? Assuredly not. For I will bring princes and they shall surround you with might, an army against you, and in such wise will I give you over into their hands that your pride shall fall down into hell.

I will not pardon the old men or the widows, I will not pardon the children, but I will give you all to famine, the sword, and derision and the Temple, whereon I have looked with mercy, I will make desolate with the city, insomuch that you shall be for a fable, a derision, and a proverb among the nations. So is my wrath abiding upon you, and my indignation sleeps not."

This is God's promise for the disbelievers who sought to kill Jesus, His righteous servant. God has revealed in the Quran ;

5:78 Those of the children of Israel who went astray were cursed by the tongue of David, and of Jesus, son of Mary. That was because they rebelled and used to transgress.

Jesus did not come to set up a new religion but to re-establish the religion of Noah and Abraham, which as God has revealed in the Quran , is ISLAM.

42:13 He hath ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them. Allah chooseth for Himself whom He will, and guideth unto Himself him who turneth (toward Him).


2:87 And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the holy Spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?

2:136 Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the Prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

Jesus and his disciples are Muslims, as the Holy Quran testifies.

3:52 But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him).

"Whoever will not believe in the TRUTH for their salvation, will believe in the LIE for their damnation."


[edit on 4-7-2008 by queenofangels_17]

[edit on 4-7-2008 by queenofangels_17]

Originally posted by furiousracer313

What Muslims Don't Tell You

Women's Rights

* Women are inferior to men [blah, blah , blah....]

Well, it sounds like something straight from the old testament to me.


[edit on 4-7-2008 by xul]

reply to post by LoKi_H


Loki,

Disbelievers abound even since the time of Noah, pagans whom 900 years of Noah's preaching cannot convert from their sins, hence the deluge. In the time of Moses, how many disbelievers were killed in the Name of God? And how many believers too?

I will tell you exactly what the positions of the Muslims in the time of the Prophet Muhammad when they slay the idolaters and pagans, using God's words spoken through His servant Jesus ;

" Tell me, Moses slew men and Ahab slew men, is this in each case murder? Assuredly not; for Moses slew the men to destroy idolatry and to preserve the worship of the true God, but Ahab slew the men to destroy the worship of the true God and to preserve idolatry. Wherefore to Moses the slaying of men was converted into sacrifice, while to Ahab it was converted into sacrilege: insomuch that one and the same work produced these two contrary effects. "

Tell me, then, did Moses the servant of God sin in slaying all whom he slew?"
The disciples answered: "God forbid; God forbid that Moses should have sinned in obeying God who commanded him!"

Fighting and killing and being killed in the Name of God was a promise binding with God in the Torah, and the Gospel and the Holy Quran.

9:111 Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Quran. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.

Originally posted by Cthulwho
Judaism=Christianity=Islam

They're all basically just different takes on the same religion, and the Koran is pretty much the new New Testament.

These problems aren't isolated to Islam, but rather religion in general. Why? Because they were written thousands of years ago. The updated version of these teachings is called the "legal system", and it is constantly being updated.

The reason why people don't ditch their old religion in favor of this new set of teachings is because it has become heavily ingrained into their culture. It's the same reson why they don't knock down heritage listed buildings to make way for skyscrapers.

Islam is NOTHING like Christianity..

Read this to clarify things up...
www.chick.com...

reply to post by queenofangels_17


Ok, look, Muslims dont believe that Jesus was the son of God. And the only way to heaven is through Jesus. So if Muslims dont accept Jesus, then they cant go to heaven!

reply to post by xul


xul,

Since God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, seeing He is unchangeable, and therefore that which God ordained as man's way of salvation, this has He caused all the prophets to say.

In the words of Jesus, " As God lives, in whose presence my soul stands, if the Book of Moses with the book of our father David had not been corrupted by the human traditions of false Pharisees and doctors, God would not have given His word to me. And why speak I of the Book of Moses and the book of David? Every prophecy have they corrupted, in so much that today a thing is not sought because God has commanded it, but men look whether the doctors say it, and the Pharisees observe it, as though God were in error, and men could not err.

Woe, therefore, to this faithless generation, for upon them shall come the blood of every prophet and righteous man, with the blood of Zechariah son of Berachiah, whom they slew between the Temple and the altar! What prophet have they not persecuted? What righteous man have they suffered to die a natural death? Scarcely one! And they seek now to slay me. They boast themselves to be children of Abraham, and to possess the beautiful Temple. As God lives, they are children of Satan, and therefore they do his will: therefore the Temple, with the holy city, shall go to ruin, in so much that there shall not remain of the Temple one stone upon another.'

Peace!

Originally posted by Rook1545
If you read these in comparison with some of the laws from around the same time in any other country you will see there is not much difference. The "Holy Land" was pretty much always governed by Temple law (especially after the Romans left).


Now I know I am going to get jumped on for defending this, but that is fine. I am sure I can use the Bible and history to show that Jews and Christians are no better.

While that is very true, the problem is that the Muslims still believe this and still teach it as the way to be. While other religions have progressed and only a fringe restrict the rights of women in such a way, it is the norm in Muslim societies and doesn't show any signs of changing because no one inside these societies feels there is anything wrong with it.

reply to post by furiousracer313


Muslims Do accept Jesus BUT as a prophet only not 'son of god'.Muslims believe in all the Prophets who existed before Moses,Adam etc... but the leader of Prophets and the final Prophet is Prophet Muhammad for them.

As for your quotations you have mentioned from Quran have been answered countless times on ATS and BTS in detail.So its better if you have a good look at the previous threads that have discussed it before.

reply to post by sc2099


How are their rights restricted?

They're allowed to do everything educate,work,business,marry who they want,making their own choices etc...

Try not mixing culture with religion.



[edit on 4-7-2008 by Attari]

Originally posted by Attari
reply to post by sc2099

 

Try not mixing culture with religion.



[edit on 4-7-2008 by Attari]

Fair enough. You are correct. I should have specified culture rather than religion.

Originally posted by sc2099

Originally posted by Rook1545
If you read these in comparison with some of the laws from around the same time in any other country you will see there is not much difference. The "Holy Land" was pretty much always governed by Temple law (especially after the Romans left).


Now I know I am going to get jumped on for defending this, but that is fine. I am sure I can use the Bible and history to show that Jews and Christians are no better.

While that is very true, the problem is that the Muslims still believe this and still teach it as the way to be. While other religions have progressed and only a fringe restrict the rights of women in such a way, it is the norm in Muslim societies and doesn't show any signs of changing because no one inside these societies feels there is anything wrong with it.

A few points, the first one is... if they don't see anything wrong with it, then what's the big deal? You don't have to live there. This is their culture, and it's the norm for them. I'm not sure where you are from, but I'm pretty sure that your culture is far from perfect from an outsiders point of view. That doesn't mean it's wrong, it's just different. You have no right to judge them.

As for the title "What Muslims DON'T tell you" - what exactly aren't they telling us? Pretty much all your statements are pretty well known, I believe, and if not, I'm sure there's a wealth of knowledge in many ancient texts, and the Quran, and on the internet. These beliefs are not hidden or covered up. Yes, I admit, some of the things are quite shocking to us, being from a different culture, but, again, it's the norm for them, it's their identity.

To generalise and demonise a whole culture for their beliefs seems outrageous to me. What you are saying is paramount to rascism. Of course there are a few extreme religious nutcases out there, but that goes for any religion. To single one out is very unfair.

Speaking as a pretty well-read feminist, recently I watched a program about a British Muslim woman, who has one persona in England, and on back in her homeland. She went home in the program, and followed all the traditions (covering up etc), and was very happy to do so. It also showed how the women are treated... which... isn't badly at all. (I'm sure domestic violence and suchlike DO go on, like any other country, but to assume it's everywhere is wrong) The women were all friends, very close friends, and it was very very social. They would spend a lot of time together, without the men, and have a lot of fun. I was actually quite envious of their friendships and relationships with each other.


The few Muslim people I know (who are living in England) do have a very strong identity within their culture, while at the same time living within the British culture. Some do drink, and have sex before marriage, and they don't apologise for it. They are living as Muslims, but more modern Muslims. Just like a lot of Christians are living an adapted version of the religion, to fit in with modern society. I, personally, am not religious at all. I dislike religion for the most part, but at the same time I admire the people who feel passionate about their beliefs. Whatever religion. In fact, I quite envy them. As far as this thread goes, I think it's basically just a very very childish premise. Muslims are not the enemy.

Originally posted by furiousracer313
Islam is NOTHING like Christianity..

Read this to clarify things up...
www.chick.com...

Hahaha....that is one way-out hilarious theory. I seriously wonder how it came about, considering that Khadijah's family was in no way Christian (Roman Catholic or otherwise), and only that her cousin Waraqah was a convert.

Originally posted by furiousracer313
Ok, look, Muslims dont believe that Jesus was the son of God. And the only way to heaven is through Jesus. So if Muslims dont accept Jesus, then they cant go to heaven!

Really? I thought that to inherit eternal life we must " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbour as yourself.'"

Besides, 'accepting' Jesus us a very vague statement. All muslims (as part of their faith) must 'accept' Jesus, and his message. I see nothing about "To inherit eternal life you must believe that Jesus died on the cross (or tree?) to wash away your sins". If such a statement exists, it would directly contradict the statement that what we need to do is love the Lord God with all heart, soul, strength and mind, and love our neighbours as ourselves.


PS: Just because women may be generally less strong than men, it doesn't mean they are inferior.

Originally posted by furiousracer313
reply to post by queenofangels_17

 

Ok, look, Muslims dont believe that Jesus was the son of God. And the only way to heaven is through Jesus. So if Muslims dont accept Jesus, then they cant go to heaven!

That is YOUR belief and you are entitled to it. That does not make it factually right or factually wrong, simply a belief. The sooner people realize that every human is entitled to believe what they want, from Jesus and Mohamed to the flying spaghetti monster, they are not wrong in their beliefs, they simply believe something different from you.



reply to post by sc2099

While that is very true, the problem is that the Muslims still believe this and still teach it as the way to be. While other religions have progressed and only a fringe restrict the rights of women in such a way, it is the norm in Muslim societies and doesn't show any signs of changing because no one inside these societies feels there is anything wrong with it.

North America up until the 50's treated women in almost the exact same manner. We never saw any issues with it. It used to be common belief that what a man did in the privacy in his own was his business, that included smacking your wife around.

Originally posted by Chewlip

Originally posted by sc2099

Originally posted by Rook1545
If you read these in comparison with some of the laws from around the same time in any other country you will see there is not much difference. The "Holy Land" was pretty much always governed by Temple law (especially after the Romans left).


Now I know I am going to get jumped on for defending this, but that is fine. I am sure I can use the Bible and history to show that Jews and Christians are no better.

While that is very true, the problem is that the Muslims still believe this and still teach it as the way to be. While other religions have progressed and only a fringe restrict the rights of women in such a way, it is the norm in Muslim societies and doesn't show any signs of changing because no one inside these societies feels there is anything wrong with it.

A few points, the first one is... if they don't see anything wrong with it, then what's the big deal? You don't have to live there. This is their culture, and it's the norm for them. I'm not sure where you are from, but I'm pretty sure that your culture is far from perfect from an outsiders point of view. That doesn't mean it's wrong, it's just different. You have no right to judge them.

As a living person I have the right to judge anyone and anything I so choose. To not "judge" means to abstain from having morals. Since I am not amoral, I judge the unfairness of Islamic culture's treatment of women to be wrong. What else would you not have me judge because it's not my culture? Child marriages? I won't apologize for my belief that it's not ok for a 50 year old man to essentially buy a child bride from a poor neighbor no matter what country it takes place in. Female Genital Mutilation? I won't apologize for being against that either even though it's not my relatives doing it.

Of course no culture is perfect, and any culture's flaws are always most blatant to outsiders. That's just the nature of things. But even though none of us is perfect, the only means we have to hold each other accountable for our actions is the lens of our own morals.

Muslims are not the enemy.

I never said they are. Disagreeiing with an aspect of a particular culture is far from considering them an enemy. That's a pretty big leap to make.

@Rook, I don't think it's fair to compare women not being able to work outside the home most of the time with honor killings, acid attacks, and stonings. Even the 'slapping around' of wives that may have been commonplace and not spoken about was a far cry from these sorts of attacks, which more to the point, are still happening today.

Originally posted by furiousracer313

* A husband may punish his wife by .... abstaining from sexual relations with her

hahaha, but is that really a punishment , over here in the US
its the opposite.

but maybe muslim men are so good that it really is a punishment.

hahaa, sorry, i just thought it was funny when I read it, I'll be going now.



[edit on 5-7-2008 by josephine]

reply to post by sc2099


But it seems as if you're disagreeing with their entire culture. I was brought up in the midst of domestic violence, and I'm not Muslim. To rail against domestic violence is admirable, but you are implying that it's an intrinsic part of their culture, which is wrong (at least in this day and age). Just like all over the world, there are good people and bad people.

Originally posted by babloyi

Originally posted by furiousracer313
Islam is NOTHING like Christianity..

Read this to clarify things up...
www.chick.com...

Hahaha....that is one way-out hilarious theory. I seriously wonder how it came about, considering that Khadijah's family was in no way Christian (Roman Catholic or otherwise), and only that her cousin Waraqah was a convert.

Originally posted by furiousracer313
Ok, look, Muslims dont believe that Jesus was the son of God. And the only way to heaven is through Jesus. So if Muslims dont accept Jesus, then they cant go to heaven!

Really? I thought that to inherit eternal life we must " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbour as yourself.'"

Besides, 'accepting' Jesus us a very vague statement. All muslims (as part of their faith) must 'accept' Jesus, and his message. I see nothing about "To inherit eternal life you must believe that Jesus died on the cross (or tree?) to wash away your sins". If such a statement exists, it would directly contradict the statement that what we need to do is love the Lord God with all heart, soul, strength and mind, and love our neighbours as ourselves.


PS: Just because women may be generally less strong than men, it doesn't mean they are inferior.

Ok, accepting Jesus, and loving Jesus, does not contradict anything. Jesus said the he is the only watch to heaven. Jesus IS God. He said, if u know me then u know the father. And he died on the cross, not a tree.