Must Magic, Astrology, Alchemistry & Psychism be accepted by Christianism?

The Peace of God to all that belong to the light,
Dear Readers,
Let me start this thread in ATS, and precisely in this forum of Conspiracies in Religions, to open a discussion about is it has been always the paranormal events that can be classified as Magic, Astrology, Alchemistry and Psychism condemned as sin, or to the contrary there is a legitmic space in the Corpus of the Christian Theology for those special phenomenon of the spirit.

I think a good begining point is to stablish the two great currents that exist in the Western Christianity about this topic:

1) There is one so strong conservative point of view that always has prosecuted the practice of any of these disciplines asssociated them with the sin of Witchery or Sorcery. A good example of this tendency that is present either in the Catholic church as in the Protestant ones is the work of the Inquisition against notable figures of the History that were even burned accused of Witchery: St Joan of Arc, the French heroine or Fray Giordano Bruno, the dominican Scientist of the Prerenaicense. In the protestant side the most known case if the famous Salem witches hunting, ocurred in American in the XVII century.

2) The other line of the Chritianism with respect to this theme is the more liberal one, the same that recognized the existence of many special spiritual experencies that are part of the Mysticism or the Exoteric way in which also notable figures of the Church has been working by centuries:The prophet Elias that was transported in extasis to the heaven, the Magi that visited JesusChrist, the transfiguration of Jesus, The two prophets that intepreted the dreams Daniel and Joseph, the great mystic St John author of the Apocalysis, a series of powerful vissions about the future, St Albert Magnus and St Thomas Aquinas that are counted as practicers of Alchemestry, among some Popes, and the important Great Mystics of the West like St Therese of Jesus and St John of the Cross.

So is is really everything that can be in modern language classified as Parapsicological a form of Witchery or Sorcery?

Thanks for your atention,

I expect your participation in this discussion,

your friend,

The Angel of lightness




[edit on 6/30/2008 by The angel of light]

reply to post by The angel of light


They are forbidden because their tenets stand in direct opposition to scripture. For example Astrology - our destinies cannot be controlled by Gods will and the stars. They are not compatible belief systems.

Most of these beliefs have been so discredited that the church no longer bothers with them. Witches used to be persecuted back when we believed they actually could hurt people with curses. We still believe it's wrong to hurt people, we just don't believe witches can do it anymore. So they aren't much of a focus as most are just rebellious teenagers and nature loving hippies.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by The angel of light

 

They are forbidden because their tenets stand in direct opposition to scripture. For example Astrology - our destinies cannot be controlled by Gods will and the stars. They are not compatible belief systems.

But god created the stars, did he not?

I never thought astrology as controlling our destiny, but rather allows a person to divine what that destiny is. I don't see a contradiction there.

However, I personally don't believe in Astrology, and according to the Bible, God doesn't either. Any divinations from the stars would be false, as they are not intended to lay out our future, but rather be used as tools to help determine seasons, etc. (Genesis 1:14). Also, certain events in the sky will signify the end of times (Isaiah 13:9, Joel 3:15, Matthew 26:29).

So, (alleged) diving of future events via the stars (Astrology) = bad, observation of the stars (Astronomy) = good.

Originally posted by The angel of light
The Peace of God to all that belong to the light,
Dear Readers,
Let me start this thread in ATS, and precisely in this forum of Conspiracies in Religions, to open a discussion about is it has been always the paranormal events that can be classified as Magic, Astrology, Alchemistry and Psychism condemned as sin, or to the contrary there is a legitmic space in the Corpus of the Christian Theology for those special phenomenon of the spirit.

I expect your participation in this discussion,

your friend,

The Angel of lightness

Perhaps another way to look at this is to question whether there is any room in the magickal and metaphysical paradigm for Christianity. As one moves deeper into matters of the spirit, the more one tends to find oneself moving away from the authoritarian, brutal and intolerant positions held by those that claim to be followers of Jesus.

Paradoxically, hidden within the Church itself is a magickal and mystical based tradition, often referred to as the "Royal Road" which is a fusion of Christianity and mysticism. It was heavily persecuted and its adherents retreated into monasteries and cloistered orders to practice their faith.

Again, even more paradoxically, there is no conflict between Christianity and magick -- Christians draw the line between the two , self important practitioners of the magick arts also draw a line between the two -- but the most advanced in both traditions see the underlying harmony and unity.

An excellent post and a wonderful topic to mediate on and debate. Thank you and god bless.

Posted BigWhammy
They are forbidden because their tenets stand in direct opposition to scripture. For example Astrology - our destinies cannot be controlled by Gods will and the stars. They are not compatible belief systems.

Posted by TeLomon
Any divinations from the stars would be false, as they are not intended to lay out our future, but rather be used as tools to help determine seasons, etc. (Genesis 1:14).

The Peace of God to all that belong to the light,

Dear Readers,
I created this thread with the hope that this would be an open discussion in which many points of view finally help us to see bejond the prejudges and fanatism that usually touch the topic of the paranormality looked from the religious perspective.

It is interesting to mention that it was precisely among the prosecutions against natural mediums or psychics, viewers and any type of specal gifted people that the worst crimes ever commited in the Chrisitianism were done.

My personal opinion is that we cannot denny that Jesus Christ is known by other nations, different than the Jew one, the first time even before his birth occured thanks to the astrological prediction done by the Magi in Persia.

The Magi were Astrologers, they found Jesus thanks to their observance of his Star, the so called star of Bethlehem in the sky, they new the special meaning of that star appearing the 7 year before our era in the constelation of the Sheep, Capricornious.

Besides that the Magi were the ones that first advised the Holy family about the obscure intentions of Herod, so they were proved good will people, they also gave to Jesus gifts with undoubtly esoteric meaning: Gold, FrancIncense and Myirr.

Is a visible contradiction with the ones that think Magic and Astrology are always evil that three profesional practicians of those arts were among the first gentils to knew Jesus.

Chk pls their story at:
en.wikipedia.org...

Now about divination we must understand the context in which these commandments were given in the antiquity, it was a time in which psychicsm was very involved with paganism, in which the preditions were given through the invocation of spirits or in cult to other gods.

However I think that is a viewer or Psychic request the special bless of God in his or her work, if he is praying to receive its illumination and guidance, he is working for the light , he is a good Christian, there is no sin in his action.

The sin consist to invoke the spirits of death people, to don't respect their ethernal rest, to invoke the evil, but not to invoke the Holy Ghost, that is something that is so clear in the scriptures. Pentecostes is the festivity of the Esoterism by excelence, in which the supernatural gifts of God are bring to the believers.

It is true that there is a dark side in Paranormality, there is black Magic or Vudu or Sorcery, but in many other aspects of the life we can find the same situation, even in any Science there are things that are contrary to the ethics, it depends of the use that we can do of it. The Digital is a powerful medecin of the heart disease but bad used is also a so effective poison.

If prediction of the future would be bad or sin then a very big percentage of the scripture would be also sinful, entire books of the bible must be supressed, as for instance Daniel's books, Salms, Jeremiah, Eliah, Isaiah, Apolcalypsis, even the Gospel of Mathew that is supported all the time in the accomplishing of the prophecies about the Messiah.

Thanks for your atention, and for your valuable points of view,

I feel that this is the moment in which Christianity must have a coragous discussion about this polemic topic to correct grave mistakes of the past, and to see the Light.

your friend,

The Angel of lightness





[edit on 6/30/2008 by The angel of light]

reply to post by The angel of light

The Magi were Astrologers, they found Jesus thanks to their observance of his Star, the so called star of Bethlehem in the sky, they new the special meaning of that star appearing the 7 year before our era in the constelation of the Sheep, Capricornious.

Besides that the Magi were the ones that first advised the Holy family about the obscure intentions of Herod, so they were proved good will people, they also gave to Jesus gifts with undoubtly esoteric meaning: Gold, FrancIncense and Myirr.

Not all Magi were "astrologers" by todays definition. Keep in mind mere astronomy would be called astrology back then as well. There were many kinds of Magi, including pagan priests, physicians, learned men, and sorcerers. But there were obviously some God-fearing Magi as well. Daniel 2:48:

"Then the king made Daniel a great man, and gave him many gifts, and made him ruler of the whole province of Babylon, and chief of the governors over all the wise men [ Hebrew/Aramaic = Magi] of Babylon. "

We aren't sure who the tree Magi from the east were. But the star was prophesied in Numbers 24:17.

" I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth. "

So they were most likely familiar with the Hebrew scriptures.

Also it is a common misconception from Christmas cards that the wise men came and visited Jesus shortly after His birth. In fact, the wise men came months (or possibly as much as two years) later, when Joseph and Mary had already settled in Nazareth. That is why Matthew 2:11 says the wise men visited and worshipped Jesus in a house not the stable.

Not all Magi were "astrologers" by todays definition. Keep in mind mere astronomy would be called astrology back then as well. There were many kinds of Magi, including pagan priests, physicians, learned men, and sorcerers

Hi,

I am agreed with you that not all the Magi were sorcerers, but actually all were Astrologers, since Astrology and Astronomy were the same discipline in that epoch. it was not possible to be Astronomer without be involved in the esoteric meaning of the constelations and the supossed influence or connection with human facts or nations. Of course to be Astrologers forcely imply that they were also mathematicians, since astronomy required a strong knowledge in geometry, trigonometry, and calculations.

The idea that a Magi is necessarily also Sorcerer comes from the wrong idea, very popular in the west since the end of the middle age, that all the paranormal faculties or skills are related with witchery, something that is a rough generalization.

But let me return to the important point again of the so significant detail of their gifts that they carried in their long trip along the deserts of the middle east from Iran, that looks to be their more probable motherland, to be given as present to the baby Jesus:

- Gold, which meaning is Royalty, that means they knew very well he was going to be King, also that he descended of kings, like David, also prophet, and Solomon, the famous king Magi and Astrologer.

-FrancIncense, Symbol of his Priesthood condition, that he was going to be great Priest of God, of the same order of Melquisedec, the also Mystic king of Salem that was supreme Priest of the trully God in Jerusalem even before Abraham migrated from Iraq to that city of Palestine.

- Myrr, that represents that he was going to be the Sheep of God, the victim of a supreme sacrifice to obtain the salvation of the humanity against the power of the Sin.

So these Magi were not only experts in Astronomical events, like the supernova that they watched announced the birth of Christ, but also experts in Astrological meaning of these events and experts predictors of the future, since their own gifts showed clearly they new a lot about the destination of Jesus.

Thanks for your participation in the thread,

your friend,

The Angel of lightness





[edit on 6/30/2008 by The angel of light]

reply to post by The angel of light


I agree most everyone put supernatural meanings to the positions of the stars then. Maybe here's something to it? Apparently Nancy Regan used it while in the white house. Personally, I've never had any experience that would lead me to put credence in it. Have you?

Hi,

Responding to your answer I can say that the motion of the Stars does not rule us but indeed there is a connection about what facts or circumstances or emotions we are having at certain moment and their appearant position in the sky.

In other words, the Stars does not take decissions about your life but they show you many things that are not reacheable by the common senses about your life, specially about the relationships with other people and the possibility to meet somebody new or how or where can you get the answer or solution of your matters.

The wise person is the one that knows that the last word about its life is in its personal attitude but also pay atention to these other channels of communication to know what is going on arround supporting or obstaculazing its plans.

The principal evidence of the validity of the Astrology is in the influence of the stars in the Character and the Personality. The people that has born under the same signs and ascendents has an incredible coincidence in those important areas of their individuality.

By other side many important facts concerning the God plans are announced by astronomical events that preceed them. If you want to know more about this other posibility I suggest you to visit my thread in Below top secret about the Supernova explosion of April 2007 at:

www.belowtopsecret.com...

Thanks for your participation and your so important questions,

your friend,

The Angel of lightness

reply to post by Bigwhammy

Originally posted by Bigwhammy

They are forbidden because their tenets stand in direct opposition to scripture. For example Astrology - our destinies cannot be controlled by Gods will and the stars. They are not compatible belief systems.

But what if the will of God was the will of the stars? That would make lots'a sense. God always leaves signs around about what is going to happen. You just have to look for them. I have seen these signs myself, and I wasn't even looking at the stars. I was looking at the clouds, and I was able to accurately predict the future by looking at the clouds, and by what they were saying to me.

Mysticism has been stamped out by the Church because of the Church wanting control over people. How would you control a bunch of sorcerers? Also, they would not want you to predict the future because when ever the Pope or some bloke like that would speak up about a "Vision" people would automatically believe that it was true. Even if it was just a dream, or a made up vision in the first place, because of course the Pope has the right to predict the future...and you...don't.

As for magic, I am a devout Christian and I do practice magic. I have a few wands that I have made, and I am pretty good with them. I channel energy...a lot. I have had OOBE's. I have predicted the future many times. How is this a sin, when I am still able to talk to God like I would a person?

I think we are suppose to seek Gods power through prayer not our own with "magic". Sorcery is expressly forbidden in the New Testament. I do not see any reasonable way to reconcile the two. Revelation 22:14-15. Jesus says, "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Obviously those who choose to practice magic arts or sorcery will be permanently excluded from the kingdom of God.

Now I think there is evidence that there was a form of astrology that was compatible with Judaism. God does seem to use the heavens. However it was corrupted by Egyptian and Babylonian paganism to the point what we have today is not the same thing.

reply to post by The angel of light


I believe that everything God does, Satan counterfeits. God has prophets, the plagiarism is psychics and false prophets. God has the Mazzaroth, the plagiarism is astrology. God has miracles, the plagiarism is sorcery, etc.

The first part of THIS article may help you. It discusses the 'Gospel in the Stars' and the Hebrew Mazzaroth, what we believe to be the redemption story embedded in the stars before it was distorted into pagan astrology:

The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge.

The Gospel In The Stars

These verses refer to the Hebrew Mazzaroth, later corrupted into Babylonian Astrology. Hebrew tradition holds that Adam, Seth, and Enoch picked 12 constellations of stars, each with a major star and 3 minor ones (called decans) and named them in such a way as to tell the gospel story. Being a nomadic people who slept in the open with their flocks, fathers would point out these constellations to their sons at night and use them to teach the redemption story. This was to give hope to the sons, who had heard stories of the fall of Man and his expulsion from the Garden, showing them that one day God would send His Son to redeem them. Their faith in God's promise, written in the stars, is what saved them from their sins. Evidence shows that the Sphinx in Egypt is a monument to the Mazzaroth with the head of a woman (Virgo) and the body of a lion (Leo) combining the 1st and 12th signs and completing the circle of redemption. Some experts contend that the peculiar kind of erosion the sphinx has experienced could only have occurred if it had spent a period of time under water. If so, it's a pre-flood memorial to the Gospel in the Stars.

In ancient Babylon, the 12 constellations were given different names, most of which bore no resemblance to the original Hebrew, and the 12 signs of the Zodiac were born taking God completely out of the picture. It's the reason the Tower of Babel was destroyed and the people dispersed (read The Tower of Babel). These Babylonian names survive to this day and are the basis for the abomination we call Astrology.

Not sure if I agree with everything the author says (he has some articles about the spinx as well where he also mentions the Mazzaroth more in depth than the above article) but it is interesting.

Edit: Oh, and to answer the original question, my answer is No. They should not be accepted by Christians because I believe they are counterfeits and the Christian Bible warns against such practices.

[edit on 6/30/2008 by AshleyD]

I don't see any problem with a Christian pondering The Mysteries, any more than a sorcerer or witch pondering Christianity. Or any religion, for that matter. As I've stated in other posts, I grew up as "the scientist" in a conservative religious household — and my interests in Science were always encouraged and never dismissed by my family.

Add to that the fact that I was a very "psychic" child, just as my great grandmother was a psychic of some renown in her day. My family was entirely open to my "spells" of precognition and clairvoyance, and my mother still asks me "what do you think" (meaning "what do you see") regarding one situation or another.

In addition to Science and psychic phenomena, I'm fascinated by accounts of sorcery (real sorcery, not fictionalized accounts) and magic. And I'm a practicing, if skeptical, Lutheran. So there's a whole boxful of eclectic and seemingly contradictory interests.

When challenged by theists or atheists or scientists or magicians to reconcile my varied allegiance to so many conflicting schools of thought, I have a stock answer: I'm not going to close my mind to the possibilities.

I mean, these are all examples of the activity of the human mind — from Science and Religion to Magic and Psychism, these are subjects that can be pondered, and I think they should be pondered.

When I meet a Christian who won't even discuss sorcery or witchcraft, then I know that person has closed off and barricaded a door in his mind, which is a loss. Likewise, when I see and hear atheists bashing Christianity in the most hateful manner, I pity them — they're attacking something that they won't even try to understand. Oddly enough, most of the scientists I've ever known had very keen curiosities and were more open to discussions of magic and religion than you might think.

C'mon, even the Catholic Church is more open-minded than they are given credit. Among their ranks are practicing exorcists and paranormal investigators, as well as accomplished scientists in a variety of fields, not the least of which is Astronomy. I happen to think that the Vatican employs a number of experts in many arcane studies to keep them abreast of, oh, increased public interest in witchcraft, astrology, remote viewing and so forth. They probably have a guy who stays up all night listening to Coast to Coast AM and submits a weekly report on paranormal trends.

But, again, I think any person (or institution) who closes his mind to the exploration of the possibilities of this universe is doing himself a disservice. In the interest of long-term survival and growth, Christianity can and does adapt to social and technological progress, as well as to the more peculiar arts...which is one reason it's been around for nearly 2000 years, I think.

Should they be accepted by Christendom? Well, let me put it this way - the inquisition would have had a very different ending if people had access to modern weaponry. Absolutely it should be accepted by Christendom, 'cause I'd just love to see Christians try something about it.

Should it be accepted within, as part of Chrsitendom? Now there's a question. It all depends on how absolutely limited you think your choice of limitless being is.

reply to post by Bigwhammy

Posted by Bigwhammy
Revelation 22:14-15. Jesus says, "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."

Hi, again dear Bigwhammy the problem is that how easy the terms Magic and sorcery or witchery are used as synonyms by some not very objective translators, without being necesarily the same, as I explained in my previous posts. So we have added to the message of the original book the bias of the translation that also involves interpretation.

If that would not be the case how could you concile the difference in the diverse translations among Dogs, adicts , despicable persons or dirty people? is that the same? of course not , and let me tell that this can be part of another huge discussion, even worst than the one of Sorcery and Magic:

The one of that God rejects the Dogs, the so called best friend of man, probably the most popular pet in America!!!

Magic involves licit and ilicit activities, the white side or Mystic is the one that refers to the use of extrasensorial perception or psychic powers to cure, to heal, to protect, to aid, to construct, while the black side or Sorcery is the one that refers to destroy, kill, damage, attack, to ill.

Sorcery or Witchery is undoubtly the sin that Revelation or Apocalypsis refers to and not any type of Magic, otherwise what were doing three Magi adoring Jesus Christ a little after his birth? there would be an evident contradiction!.

Of course your New International version decided to assume magic arts as synonym of sorcery.

Notice how different the same quotation of the same book looks translated by the Authorized other versions like:

From the King James version:

22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

From Standard English version:

14 Blessed are those who(AG) wash their robes,[e] so that they may have the right to(AH) the tree of life and that(AI) they may enter the city by the gates. 15( AJ) Outside are(AK) the dogs(AL) and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

From Wycliffe New testament:

14 Blessed be they, that wash their stoles, that the power of them be in the tree of life, and enter by the gates into the city.

15 For withoutforth [shall be shut] hounds, and witches, and unchaste men, and man-quellers, and serving to idols, and each that loveth and maketh lying.

From Holman Christian Standard Bible:

14 "Blessed (S) are those who wash their robes, [f] so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

From the New International Readers version:

14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes. They will have the right to come to the tree of life. They will be allowed to go through the gates into the city.

15 "Outside the city are the dogs and those who practice witchcraft. Outside are also those who commit sexual sins and murder. Those who worship statues of gods, and everyone who loves and does what is false, are outside too

and finally from the World wide English New Testament

14God will bless the people who do what he says and keep themselves pure and clean. They can eat fruit from the tree that gives life. And they can go through the doors into the city.

15Outside the city are the dirty people, and the witch-doctors, and those with wrong ways of using sex, those who kill people, those who worship idols, and all those who like lies and tell them.

thanks for your atention and participation in the discussion,

The Angel of lightness




[edit on 7/1/2008 by The angel of light]

reply to post by The angel of light


Amen.

God does not want to forbid you from the ability to use magic. I know for a fact that any body can use magic, it just depends on how much you try.

I also remeber that there was a bible story that I remember. Paul was talking to a person who could predict the future by using the power of the dead. Paul said to her "Why don't you use the power of the living instead of the power of the dead?". Now Paul does not mean to tell her to use like living sacrifices, or something bizzare like that, but he is asking her to use the power of the living god, God. That's even what I do. I use the power of God to do my magical works. If I were to use it for a sinful purpose, it would not have good consequences, and would be a sin.

And also, God made us all in his image. Not just in bodiliy form, but in mind, and in spirit. God wants us to be powerful. That can be found in the Bible too. He wants us to be powerful. This would also give credit to God not just letting us use Magic, but wanting us to use magic.

He wants us to be so much more, but so many people have it in their head that magic, or pondering philosophy of religion is wrong that we will never be there. This cannot be done by reading the Bible alone and following it's passages. "A man cannot live on bread alone" and following the Bible and doing what it says is definitely the bread.

The Bible has verses (some of which have been quoted) that condemn witchcraft/astrology/magic(k)/etc. I think the biggest concern the Bible-writers had was that people would begin to rely on their own powers rather than on God, and would think that they didn't need God anymore in their lives.

The question in my mind is whether the Bible was condemning those specific people, like for instance, was it the witch of Endor specifically who was bad, or all witches? (using that one as an example I can actually pick off the top of my head) I'm not really sure of the answer. Maybe that's why I try to read up on this kind of stuff, though I don't actually practice any of it.

While I'm not sure if magic/etc should be practiced or not, my gut feeling is that they are things to be avoided. Whether that's my subconscious mind warning me away from it, or societal/religious programming, I don't know. I do know I've managed to get by in life so far without using any of it.

As a side note, if it is relevant, I believe that the vast majority of the paranormal/supernatural stuff is a load of junk, but there are some aspects that I do believe to be real.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by The angel of light

 

They are forbidden because their tenets stand in direct opposition to scripture. For example Astrology - our destinies cannot be controlled by Gods will and the stars. They are not compatible belief systems.

What if the stars reflected G*ds will?

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
The Bible has verses (some of which have been quoted) that condemn witchcraft/astrology/magic(k)/etc. I think the biggest concern the Bible-writers had was that people would begin to rely on their own powers rather than on God, and would think that they didn't need God anymore in their lives.

Exactly my point. We are encouraged to pray and have faith in God not conjure up God knows what. How can you be sure its not of the devil? If it's of the lord Jesus you should consider why are "magic" or "spells" are required. You guys seem to be a little overconfident in your own abilities to not be deceived in my opinion. If you guys want to play around with that stuff I am not condemning you. But I would not do it. I just think your on a slippery slope.

In reality, if you were to meet the devil, you would find him attractive, engaging and persuasive. Though he is really the prince of darkness, Satan successfully presents himself as "an angel of light"

14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. (2 Cor 11:14)





JPhish: "What if the stars reflected G*ds will"

Ashley did a good job addressing that. It appears from scripture they do but astrology has become paganized.




[edit on 7/1/2008 by Bigwhammy]