How to Raise the Quality of This Forum's Threads

Originally posted by jamie83
So rather than say these discussions have no place in educated society, I would suggest the the purpose of an educated society is to allow people discover the truth. This can never happen if the issues aren't discussed.

But there is no discussion. There is just smear, more smear, paranoid scaremongering and more smearing.

Let me put it this way - McCain isn't getting this kind of smear.

Why?

Originally posted by schrodingers dog

Well, the second post in the thread characterized critiques of Obama like this: "These attacks are usually false, racist, xenophobic, and ugly."

I addressed these comments and their context. So don't keep bringing it back up to make a point which they do not address.

You definitely did not address how you justify calling people racists who raise questions about Obama. You simply blew it off and tried to change the subject.

The truth is the time after time the posts made by people defending Obama have accused people who criticize Obama as being racists. Your post was just another in a long series of such posts.

What I see here is for some people Obama supporters seem to think they should be entitled to bash George Bush, bash the Republicans, and bash America all they want while expecting that Obama should be free from such criticism.

reply to post by jamie83


Dude, you do realize you're talking to yourself now. The point of this OP is to ignore you.
I'm off to look at some good old fashion fuzzy ufo vids now.

[edit on 16-6-2008 by schrodingers dog]

reply to post by jamie83


Ok....Just to understand where you're coming from, are you suggesting that McCain would be "playing it safe" so to speak ?

If so, I'd love to hear the arguments that would see the US economy better off in 2013 than it is now, if McCain was elected....90% of economists I've read across the globe say a McCain presidency would further erode the value of the US dollar and hence cause further increases in the price of crude, which would be underpinned by McCain's commitment to the conflict in Iraq...

How pretel, would this benefit the US...?

Obama seems to be a bit of an unknown quantity...I would suspect, if he were elected, an initial surge in retail spending and consumer confidence in the US...Whether that translates to a "recovery" in the US economy depends on a
whole heap of things...

I guess if I were in the US, given your economy may well collapse inside 10 yrs, I'd choose change...

The "old ways" caused this current financial and economic predicament to occur, pretty much....So much for small spending conservative governments...

We had the same thing here in AUS, the recently disposed conservative govt spent way more than a corresponding labor/liberal govt...

All I can say is, I hope you guys choose right, for your own sakes...

Because...

You have to understand, a partial collapse of the US economy would not necessarily mean doom and gloom worldwide like it would have 10 yrs ago...

Due to the growth of the EU, Asian markets and resource based economies fuelled by demand from Asia over traditional demand from NAmerica and Europe, many of these economies would be somewhat insulated by a partial "collapse" of the US economy...Much of the effects would be felt domestically...

Like I said, choose wisely guys...This is potentially the most important presidential election in your history...

Originally posted by neformore

But there is no discussion. There is just smear, more smear, paranoid scaremongering and more smearing.

Let me put it this way - McCain isn't getting this kind of smear.

Why?

You're incorrect that there is no discussion. The "Obama and the Bilderberger" thread I started had a lot of discussion. Everything I posted in that thread was factual. It was posted before the MSM ever heard of James Johnson.

The thread on Obama's birth certificate is still in progress. The Certificate of Birth released by the Obama campaign has been misrepresented as a "birth certificate" on Obama's site, and it has been photoshopped. Maybe there is something to the story, maybe not. That's what the purpose of discussing it is about. But the Obama supporters seem, in unison, to prefer the idea that we should just accept the released photoshopped document as proof of something. That's not what we do here.

I would suggest that McCain isn't getting much attention because he's been around for 25 years. People know him and know where he stands. Democrats respect him and have worked with him in the past. He's not perfect, but he's been vetted over the years.

Obama is a completely unknown commodity who's campaigning on one of the most nebulous platforms in history -"Change" and "Hope". He is being criticized time after time because of things that come out of his own mouth, and the mouth of his wife.

He's being criticized for claiming he stands for one thing and yet time after time saying things that aren't congruent for what he claims to stand for. This is why he lost many major primaries in the last few weeks by double-digits. He couldn't get over 30% in some states once people started seeing who he really is.

When a politician continually has to make public appearances to "explain what he really meant" or "explain what Michelle really meant" it's not a good sign.

Originally posted by schrodingers dog
reply to post by jamie83

 

Dude, you do realize you're talking to yourself now. The point of this OP is to ignore you.
I'm off to look at some good old fashion fuzzy ufo vids now.

[edit on 16-6-2008 by schrodingers dog]

Dude, the point of ATS is to Deny Ignorance.

Why not just apologize for calling ATS members racists. Ironic that in your attempts to defend against "smears" of Obama you decide to smear ATS members who don't agree with you.

Let us know if you find any good ufo videos. When you're done, maybe you could check out the fuzzy in sections, clear in other sections, photoshopped certificate of birth released by Obama.

[edit on 16-6-2008 by jamie83]

reply to post by jamie83


And this post is beneficial to the discussion carried on this thread, how ?

Quit being antagonistic....If you have REAL issues that will affect peoples day to day lives, then go for it...

But quit the backbiting....Its just lame...

Originally posted by Rilence
reply to post by jamie83

 

Ok....Just to understand where you're coming from, are you suggesting that McCain would be "playing it safe" so to speak ?

All interesting and valid points you raise. However, I do not want to derail the topic of this thread, which is how to raise the quality of the forum's threads.

Generally speaking, I would suggest that POTUS = Democrat + Congress = Democrat = 99% chance things will be screwed up worse in 4 years. The last time this happened was when Jimmy Carter was President. Enough said.

Republican President + Democratic Congress = 50% chance that things will be worse in 4 years. When the Congress and White House have been from opposite parties, the country seems to have moved in a better direction. If we can take the best policies from both sides and reach some agreement in the middle I think we'll be better off than with single party rule.

Originally posted by Rilence
reply to post by jamie83

 

And this post is beneficial to the discussion carried on this thread, how ?

Quit being antagonistic....If you have REAL issues that will affect peoples day to day lives, then go for it...

But quit the backbiting....Its just lame...

I removed the line that you found offensive out of respect for your point of view. You're right. I should have left it out of this thread to begin with.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

You know BH, for once I don't know if I totally agree with you on this. If we ignore these threads, and they continuously get bumped by those who do agree, to me it is like flashing an advertising banner in the recent posts. I believe this because of the way some of the titles are worded and I shall leave it at that.

I think ATS is being used to spread this gossip, and I don't want it to go unchallenged. I think I will continue to do so, but I will try to remain as civil as possible. I think that will also help to reach your goal of raising the quality of this forum.

Originally posted by Hal9000
You know BH, for once I don't know if I totally agree with you on this. If we ignore these threads, and they continuously get bumped by those who do agree, to me it is like flashing an advertising banner in the recent posts.

I totally understand your point. And I have the same mixed feelings about it. But I know for a fact that most ATS members that I know and respect would rather talk on more of an intellectual level, even if we DO disagree. Disagreement and debate are great! And those CAN happen in those threads, they just don't often do.

To me, it's like playing in the mud. It's fun, but you're probably going to get dirty. I decided to stay out of those threads after I felt "dirty" defending Obama from some insane rumor. If people want to think his brother knows something about the way he was raised, even though they didn't meet each other until Obama was 24, let them think that! It's not like I'm going to convince them otherwise. They think Obama has "Muslim ties" (whatever that is) and has a terrorist agenda for this country. They're scared to death and shaking in their boots. I can't help that.

They're not going to vote for him anyway. They're scouring the Internet trying to find everything bad about him that they can. Why? Because on the issues, he looks pretty good for this country, but they have fears and doubts about him because he's different than anything we've had in the White House.

"He's a Muslim"! they cry. "He and his wife are racist"! "He hates America"! "He wasn't even born here - He can't be president"! "He's a felon"!

People who are thinking these things and making thread after thread about them are afraid of something else and FINDING and MANUFACTURING reasons to get people to fear Obama. And defending these ridiculous notions only gives them power. After all, if they're ridiculous, why give them credence by arguing with them? That's just the conclusion I came to.

I think ATS is being used to spread this gossip, and I don't want it to go unchallenged.

I have the same exact feelings. I totally understand. That's why the threads are seductive to me. Because I feel I need to do something about it. And I hope people aren't dumb enough to just believe this stuff. Maybe I have faith that they aren't. But I do hope they look stuff up and find out for themselves. Think with a critical mind.

I think I will continue to do so, but I will try to remain as civil as possible. I think that will also help to reach your goal of raising the quality of this forum.

I totally support you in that and wish you good luck!

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I'm going to stand behind BH on this one. As they have already said we can raise the quality of this forums threads by simply ignoring the trash that appears on it. It is a self filtering process. We can do the same in this very thread by using the little Ignore button.


That said...

lets remember to stick to the topic at hand... How to raise the quality of this forums threads. If you insist on talking about another topic... Why not create a New thread for it?



Coven


[edit on 6/16/2008 by coven]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I have been seduced into the defense of "my candidate" one too many times on these ridiculous threads. And I'm making a personal pledge to NOT participate in these meaningless, mudslinging threads any more. I invite you to join me.

If you feel you can no longer participate in discussions of this nature, that's fine, and you have every right to opt out. What you don't have is the right to decide what other posters choose to discuss.

This particular post for example strikes me as a lame attempt at getting the moderators to intercede on the behalf of Obama supporters. I know you're going to say that wasn't your intention, so spare me the rhetoric.

I want to talk about the issues, not the rumors of the religion of the candidate and not his birth certificate and not what his estranged brother supposedly said or what he called his wife. We have an important election coming up and we need to vote on what's important, not nonsensical rumors and trivialities.

What you really want is for everyone to stop looking at all the racist affilliations Obama has, all the examples of poor judgement he's demonstrated, and exclude his Muslim heritage and familial connections from the discussion. I'm sorry, but these are valid issues for a man who wants to be the President of the United States.

Do you honestly believe a man with such racist viewpoints, poor judgment, and ties to the Muslim religion will have the best interests of Americans at heart? I don't.

I'm a dog trainer and the VERY best way to train a dog not to do something is to IGNORE the bad and PRAISE the good. Now, I'm not saying that ATS members are dogs, but some dog psychology actually works on humans, too, if you know what I mean.

Ignore a behavior and it will fizzle out.

A poor analogy at best. Human beings are a lot more complex intellectually than dogs. If you really believe the training you use on dogs will work on people, you're seriously misguided.



[edit on 6/16/08 by LLoyd45]

Originally posted by LLoyd45
If you feel you can no longer participate in discussions of this nature, that's fine, and you have every right to opt out. What you don't have is the right to decide what other posters choose to discuss.

I agree. And I have not done that.

This particular post for example strikes me as a lame attempt at getting the moderators to intercede on the behalf of Obama supporters.

If I wanted the moderators to intercede, I would ask them to by sending a U2U or Complaint.

What you really want

Thanks for your opinion.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Thanks for your opinion.

You're Welcome, and your reply demonstrates that you have no true desire to debate anything intellectually. You simply expect other people to agree with you despite the facts at hand.

[edit on 6/16/08 by LLoyd45]

reply to post by LLoyd45


I'm sorry. What did you wish to debate?

- whether or not I have the right to decide what other posters choose to discuss? I've already said I agree with you on that, so there's no debate there.

- whether or not I'm trying to get the moderators to intercede on the behalf of Obama supporters? I told you. I'm not. If I were, I would ASK them to. Believe it or not. I don't care. No debate there.

- My real desires for starting this thread? I have made that clear in the first post. Again, believe it or not.

- whether or not Obama is a man with racist viewpoints, poor judgment, and ties to the Muslim religion? There might be a debate there. And there are several existing threads specifically on two of those subjects. If you wish to debate those subjects, I suggest you check them out. As far as his alleged poor judgment, that opinion is scattered throughout several forums. Or perhaps you'd like to start a thread of your own about it.

I'll put links to just some of the existing threads:

Does Barack Obama Really Hate America and Is he Really Racist?
On the Topic of Racism
Malik Obama Confirms Brother Barack Obama is a MUSLIM!
Muslims Back Barack Hussien Obama for President

But I am not going to debate MYSELF or any of those issues in this thread. THIS thread is not the place to debate those subjects. Read the title. This is for ideas how to raise the quality of this forum.

Got any of those?

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
I have no intention of debating you in this thread over the subject of Barack Obama.

My problem stems from your insinuation that any thread posted regarding Barack Obama that doesn't show him in a positive light is somehow subststandard. He may be your hero and Messiah, but not everyone sees him the same way as you. It's difficult to deny ignorance when you bury your head in the sand all the time.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic



I want to do my part to raise the quality of the threads in this forum. Please join me.

Go to On the Issues or another similar site and tell us what you think of the issues of your favorite (or least favorite) candidates. You can post in the thread in my signature or start a thread of your own about a particular issue you wish to talk about and explore.

Just out of curiosity, isn't it against the T&C to promote another site and encourage ATS members to take discussions there?

You're basically trying to undermine ATS with this thread, encouraging people to leave ATS and go to another site that competes with ATS.

I'm pretty sure this isn't cool.

Originally posted by LLoyd45
I have no intention of debating you in this thread over the subject of Barack Obama.

Good.

My problem stems from your insinuation that any thread posted regarding Barack Obama that doesn't show him in a positive light is somehow subststandard.

I didn't insinuate that at all. And that is not, in fact, my opinion. I have even said negative things about him, as I disagree with him on some issues. But I'm glad you see it as your own problem.

He may be your hero and Messiah, but not everyone sees him the same way as you.

I do see him as a bit of a hero, but I'm not religious, so Messiah really doesn't apply. And I am fully aware that not everyone shares my opinion about him.

reply to post by jamie83


Perhaps you should contact a moderator. The site I listed is not a discussion board, but a neutral database that chronicles the various candidates' voting histories and positions on the issues. It, in no way, competes with ATS. If you had taken the trouble to click on the link, you would know that.

In fact, you should go there and read about the candidates' positions and how they have voted over the years. It's pretty interesting.

reply to post by LLoyd45

What is your problem Loyd? She has given you the same explanation in as many ways possible.

What is it that BH is saying that really has you're panties in a bunch?

Are you afraid more people might take her advice and ignore you folks? Don't worry I'm still here. I promise not to ignore you.