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How to Raise the Quality of This Forum's Threads

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posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 07:57 PM

Originally posted by jetxnet

Cloud of ignorance, how about a Cloud of research? Research that has obviously gleaned in several facets that Obama is a corrupt lieing Marxist, Muslim radical racist.
Here's a shocker for ya. More claims, zero evidence to back his opinion.

He voted "present" more times in his 3 year Senate term than take a stand on something.

A.) Where's the proof. I've seen Barack Obama vote on a LOT of things that i havent seen senators many years his senior do. But i dont have to prove it to myself, i've read the results. you just concoct them in your head

He has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to economics, thinks he'll find everything to pay for this, that and the other.

Where's the proof. A.) He'll raise taxes. Im against that. But if my money is going to go towards something it might as well be something *I* can use.

He believes in more taxes and bigger government.

Some Democrats (recently from Ohio and Oklahoma) no longer support him because they stated he is "too Liberal for me".

Very vague statement, especially since you say "some" democrats. That could be 1 or 2 democrats. Once again. No proof. Just conjectures

If that doesn't raise a control the Sheeple with a bigger dysfunctional govenrment and higher taxes and less freedoms than nothing will. You always be fooled.

What makes someone a sheep? Blindly beleving what a leader tells them. I dont blindly believe what Obama tells me, which i believe my numerous posts (backed with facts that you cant dispell) clearly show. I've talked about the good and the bad.

You just talk about the bad. Obama is "bad" because he thinks ice cream dont have bones! He thinks the moon is scary and Michelle has to make the boogeyman go away at night before he can fall asleep.

The next thing people liek you are going to do to the man is throw tirechips in his hair and dangle him from the Monkey Bars.

You can choose to further these 3rd grade playground arguments if you wish. Personally - i think they're provocative in the sense that i hope showing proof and real-world facts will open the eyes of an ignorant human being who's blindly believing what fox news/CNN/MSNBC has to say.

Though i see that education clearly isnt the cure for ignorance.

posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 07:59 PM
Revise my website? What is that supposed to mean? I think it's just fine, especially for a programmer/network engineer, think it is pretty good.

Your analysis didn't prove anything to me, because I could tell right away that you are missing some (or purposely leaving out) some key points.

Here is the correct analysis - don't forget to add Obama's plan to solve Global Poverty with your money and what that will cost in addition to the breakdown below:

Obama's Health Care Plan Will Cost Up To $65 Billion A Year; Equal To $260 Billion Over Four Years."[Obama] campaign officials estimated that the net cost of the plan to the federal government would be $50 billion to $65 billion a year, when fully phased in, and said the revenues from rolling back the tax cuts were enough to cover it." (Robin Toner and Patrick Healy, "Obama Calls For Wider And Less Costly Health Care Coverage," The New York Times, 5/30/07)

Obama's Energy Plan Will Cost $150 Billion Over 10 Years, Equal To 15 Billion Annually And $60 Billion Over Four Years."Obama will invest $150 billion over 10 years to advance the next generation of bio fuels and fuel infrastructure, accelerate the commercialization of plug-in hybrids, promote development of commercial-scale renewable energy, invest in low-emissions coal plants, and begin the transition to a new digital electricity grid." (Obama For America, "The Blueprint For Change,", Accessed 1/14/08, p. 25)

Obama's Tax Plan Will Cost Approximately $85 Billion A Year; Equal To $340 Billion Over Four Years."[Obama's] proposed tax cuts and credits, aimed at workers earning$50,000 or less per year, would cost the Treasury an estimated $85billion annually." (Margaret Talev, "Obama Proposes Tax Code Overhaul To Help The Poor," McClatchy Newspapers, 9/19/07)

Obama's Plan Would Raise Taxes On Capital Gains And Dividends, And On Carried Interest. Obama's tax plan includes: "Increasing the highest bracket for capital gains and dividends and closing the carried interest loophole." (Obama For America, "Barack Obama: Tax Fairness For The Middle Class," Fact Sheet,, Accessed 1/8/08)

Obama's Economic Stimulus Package Will Cost $75 Billion."Barack Obama's economic plan will inject $75 billion of stimulus into the economy by getting money in the form of tax cuts and direct spending directly to the people who need it most." (Obama For America, "Barack Obama's Plan To Stimulate The Economy," Fact Sheet,, 1/13/08)

Obama's Early Education And K-12 Package Will Cost $18 Billion A Year; Equal To $72 Billion Over Four Years."Barack Obama's early education and K-12 plan package costs about $18billion per year." (Obama For America, "Barack Obama's Plan For Lifetime Success Through Education," Fact Sheet,, 11/20/07, p. 15)

Obama's National Service Plan Will Cost $3.5 Billion A Year; Equal To $14 Billion Over Four Years."Barack Obama's national service plan will cost about $3.5 billion per year when it is fully implemented." (Obama For America, "Helping All Americans Serve Their Country: Barack Obama's Plan For Universal Voluntary Citizen Service," Fact Sheet,, 12/5/07)

Obama Will Increase Our Foreign Assistance Funding By $25 Billion."Obama will embrace the Millennium Development Goal of cutting extreme poverty around the world in half by 2015, and he will double our foreign assistance to $50 billion to achieve that goal." (Obama For America, "The Blueprint For Change,", Accessed 1/14/08, p. 53)

Obama Will Provide $2 Billion To Aid Iraqi Refugees."He will provide at least $2 billion to expand services to Iraqi refugees in neighboring countries, and ensure that Iraqis inside their own country can find a safe-haven." (Obama For America, "The Blueprint For Change,", Accessed 1/14/08, p. 51)

Obama Will Provide $1.5 Billion To Help States Adopt Paid-Leave Systems."As president, Obama will initiate a strategy to encourage all 50states to adopt paid-leave systems. Obama will provide a $1.5 billion fund to assist states with start-up costs and to help states offset the costs for employees and employers." (Obama For America, "The Blueprint For Change,", Accessed 1/14/08, p. 15)

Obama Will Provide $1 Billion Over 5 Years For Transitional Jobs And Career Pathway Programs, Equal To $200 Million A Year And $800Million Over Four Years. "Obama will invest $1 billion over five years in transitional jobs and career pathway programs that implement proven methods of helping low-income Americans succeed in the workforce." (Obama For America, "The Blueprint For Change,", Accessed 1/14/08, p. 42)

Obama Will Provide $50 Million To Jump-Start The Creation Of An IAEA-Controlled Nuclear Fuel Bank. Obama:"We must also stop the spread of nuclear weapons technology and ensure that countries cannot build -- or come to the brink of building -- a weapons program under the auspices of developing peaceful nuclear power. That is why my administration will immediately provide $50million to jump-start the creation of an International Atomic Energy Agency-controlled nuclear fuel bank and work to update the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty." (Sen. Barack Obama, "Renewing American Leadership," Foreign Affairs, 7-8/07)

posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 08:10 PM
reply to post by jetxnet

Oh, so what you're saying is that barack obama will spend our tax dollars on things that benefit the world, and even more things that will benefit us?
I dont think that UHC is *the* answer. I've made a post on this i think reducing the COST of the procedures is the answer, BUT

UHC is CERTAINLY better than what we have now.

So - in order to make it easier for all, i direct you to a website (call it biased if you want - you cant argue with results) that outlines pointless government spending.

Royal Flush Baby

Read 'em and Weep

But i suppose its better to spend money on such things as in the link above, instead of using it to make a better world, not only for us, but for everyone?

posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 08:10 PM

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin

your video no longer exists

Here the direct link:

anyone who's ever challanged your radical ideals with facts and proof has seen you tuck tail and run. We're trying to improve the quality of discussion here, not degrade it further.

now run along until you can learn how to have a meaningful discussion, instead of troll for ATS points

I think you will find contrary opinions in this very thread. Please stick with discussing the issues, not the poster.

posted on Jun, 16 2008 @ 08:10 PM
reply to post by jetxnet

Wow, did you really type this all up in 8 minutes? Why post it here?

posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 03:14 AM
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Here is the book that is causing causing the problems with staying with the issues. It is quite funny and uses humor to show how to win elections without ever discussing issues.

Republican Playbook by Andy Borowitz

I agree that there should be a place to discuss issues. It can be done.
It would help ATS to stay a first class forum.
I support your work on dogs and politics.

posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 08:50 AM

Originally posted by Andrew E. Wiggin
reply to post by Bombeni

If you dont like it here at ATS, then why are you posting here?
You remind me of the millions of people who say "Walmart is an evil corporation"

but go shop there because its more convienient.

if you dont like it here, head back to your other forum

I'd like to report this poster as what I see as one of the problems here, that is, if I am allowed to. He is outright hateful, directing hateful dribble to other posters--not just me-- rather than "improving the quality" of the board as he claims. It is hateful people like this who make the forum a place where a lot of people are afraid to post. They're afraid if they post someone like this is going to come along and rip them to shreds. I have no problem whatsoever with a person stating facts, experiences or theories that disagree with another person's post/comment, but this hateful dribble is the problem, IN MY OPINION.

posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 09:03 AM
reply to post by Bombeni

All I can suggest is "Be the Change You Wish to See." Just because you deem someone is "hateful" does NOT mean you have to respond in kind or react at all. And if you feel someone is breaking the T&C, report the post.

This thread got pretty far off track and I'd like to respectfully request that it get back on topic.
One point of this thread was that we cannot control what others say (within the T&C), so the only real control we have is over what WE say.

As long as we think, "if only he would change, I could do better", then we are under the control of another person's behavior. So, my suggestion, to make this forum better, is to do better, regardless how others are.

The height of responsibility and accountability is to live to one's own standards, NO MATTER the standards of others.

posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 10:07 AM
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Good advice. Can I comment on your avatar? Maybe I should u2u, but I have such a great story about Shepherds, that others might want to read. Maybe this will be moved to another thread but here goes.

My son bought a little house in a neighborhood that was a little rundown but was in the midst of many renovations, which my son was doing also. He decided he wanted a good guard dog and bought a female shepherd, named her Rudy. She is really pretty, she it a white shepherd, but gentle as a lamb. My son expected the females to be aggressive but she was not at all, so he went out and bought a male from champion bloodlines----named him Boss and he grew to fit his name. He is that beautiful black and tan like your avatar. Well Rudy and Boss got very friendly and a couple years later there was a litter of 10 pups. I helped him and eventually sold all the pups. Well a year later, he came home from work to find a young shepherd hanging around his yard and was sure it was one of the pups someone returned, for whatever reason. (He had told every buyer if they ever could not take care of the dog for any reason to please return it.) He kept him for a few months, but 3 dogs was just too much for him, along with his job and other things. I put a sign in the street outside the condos where I live, for a good home to a German Shepherd. I got a call the same day. The people lived about 3 miles from my condo. My son brought the dog over, and the people picked it up from my condo. The very next morning I heard a little yelping and there the dog was. Somehow this dog had found his way back to my condo, a place he had never been before, because that is the last place he had seen his master. I called my son, he came over and later we called the people who had taken the dog. They said they had the whole neighborhood looking for the dog, the wife was crying, they felt soo terrible about it. They had bought a new doghouse the day before and were afraid he would jump the fence until he got used to them so they put a chain on him. He broke the chain, traveled almost 3 miles back to a place he had only been for a few minutes. I was just speechless. I knew they were smart, but I then understood why the police use them, they are not just intelligent but the most loyal dog in the world. There is just not another animal like a German Shepherd. I live in a condo but if I ever move to a house you can bet I will get a shepherd. They are amazing. It's ok if this post has to be moved.

[edit on 17-6-2008 by Bombeni]

posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 12:10 PM
BH does have a great point here.
And we're all guilty of this (even myself, many times)

When someone posts something that grossly goes against the norm, its our initial reaction to lash out at that person in a manner we still see appropriate, because we may think that nobody else will catch it, and we have to point it out to reveal this persons ignorance.

When im able to set back adn think about things, i come up with this conclusion

ATS is a magnet for intellectualism.
Intellectuals are a magnet for the "im going to bash you" crowd

So, i guess what i mean is there are a lot of very smart people that come to ATS. Unfortuantely there are also a lot of very "not-smart" people that come here as well.

What BH is saying is leave those ignorance-driven threads alone and dont respond to them. If all the smart people refuse to respond - they wither away and dry up very very fast.

If one smart person reads it, and has opinion A, you can rest assured the rest of the "smart" people that read it will share the same opinion.

Posts that say "i hate ATS, its so biased here" do not belong in ATS, IMO, just as much as posts that say "that guy is hateful"
but my post also doesnt belong in this thread, becuase it derailed the topic. (my apologies, BH)

So, i respectfully withdraw my post that calls out the anti-ats'er. Despite how i feel, ill not post about it here again

ill head to the skunkworks forums

So next time you go to hit that reply button to say "OH YEAH!?!?!?!?!?!?"
just remember to back up anything you say with some kind of proof, and do so in a constructive way (its a very hard thing to learning as i go along)

Thanks for the great post, again, BH.

-Andrew E. Wiggin

posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 01:00 PM
The only problem I'm having now is that the reports for T&C are going un-addressed...

I know I'm not crazy..

1g.) Political Baiting: You will not engage in politically-charged rhetoric, politically-inspired name-calling, and related right-versus-left political bickering while posting outside the Politics forums at

I can't believe that 85% of the posts we are discussing don't fall into political baiting.

posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 01:29 PM
coven, Just my opinion - every once in a while, the political baiting gets out of hand and the staff has to come down with a big hammer to remind everyone about the rules of play. This is a HIGHLY-charged political season and we're in the Election forum. A certain amount of political baiting in inevitable. It would be nearly impossible to stop it.

The best thing to do is do your best and look the other way. When staff gets tired of it, or it gets out of hand, they'll do something about it. They're a pretty cool group of people and I trust them quite a bit. Just be responsible for what YOU do and leave the rest alone. That's just my unsolicited advice. Feel free to disregard.

posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 01:48 PM
reply to post by jamie83

I see that the controling number of views on your thread dominate the questions and answers. When given an answer you become defensive, and repeat the question like it hasn't been answered before. You could answer the question why isn't Mc Cain getting slammed on this site, instead of suggesting that people are slamming the country, Bush, or Republicans. Why can't the two be slammed at the same time?

posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 04:28 PM

off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 05:54 PM
reply to post by LLoyd45

This particular post for example strikes me as a lame attempt at getting the moderators to intercede on the behalf of Obama supporters. I know you're going to say that wasn't your intention, so spare me the rhetoric.

CORRECT, my feelings exactly, nothing more needs to be said.

My! how much the forum has changed in the short time I have been here. before the Bush bashing was the norm.

posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 07:28 PM

I have decided to handle this in a rational manner.


To Jamie83 or JetxNet...

Debate Challenge Page

I will be posting this in all threads related to this particular topic.


posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 07:34 PM

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

I want to talk about the issues

There are no issues. Obama will raise taxes, increase welfare, gut the Constitution when it comes to individual rights, we will have a racist for a first lady, radicals for presidential advisers, and emboldened Muslims around the world. He is also the least experience senator in Congress. He won't be a president, he will be an intern. And, if he loses there will be rioting.

[edit on 17-6-2008 by Straight Razor]

posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 08:59 PM
I see no difference in the behavior of those on either side of this issue. Both sides blind to the fact they are acting in exactly the same manner.

I'm not supporting either candidate, so perhaps my lack of emotional involvement makes things clearer.

Those against Obama are clearly hammering the same points home, over and over again trying to force their views on others.

Obama supporters are in fact slandering those who refuse to mirror their love of Obama.

No winners in this game that I can see. Both sides seem to be mad with Political Bias.

This thread is as good of an example of how the monsters in both parties keep us at each others throats, instead of focusing our attention on them as we should be.

Both McCain and Obama have won as you all are acting exactly as they knew you would.

posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 10:12 PM
reply to post by Rilence

"Like I said, choose wisely guys...This is potentially the most important presidential election in your history... "

A part of the problem is I, personally, don't know enough about Obama to want to vote for him. There are things in McCain's past that are pretty sour. So, being partly uninformed. I just won't vote.
When B. Clinton was elected, for me he came out of nowhere. I'd never heard of him. I was not happy with Carter and that is when I stopped voting. I don't plan to vote again because I feel the elections are manipulated. The nominee that is elected was already chosen it seems like but by whom?

posted on Jun, 17 2008 @ 10:24 PM

Originally posted by jamie83
I posted this thread on June 5:

The TRUTH is that many times even questioning Obama has led to direct accusations of racism, and repeated personal insults.

The problem here, if there is one, is how Obama supporters are handling the valid criticisms.

[edit on 16-6-2008 by jamie83]

The post that follows is just one of many racist posts from one of your threads. I don't see this as a "valid criticism" nor did you respond to the poster asking them to stick to the topic at hand. As best I can tell you are serially creating places for people to show various shades of racism. That said I have bumped into a few intelligent anti-obamists that seem to have legitimate criticisms..actually I can only think of one from your threads...the rest...mostly facades of intolerance.

Originally posted by rocknroll
Please tell me why this kind of talk is shocking coming from a black man?
This doesn't surprise me at all. I'm glad this idiot is showing his true colors. He's not a black man, he's an [snip]

Mod edit: removed derogatory reference.


[edit on 15-6-2008 by Dr Love]

The most telling thing is when anybody, pro-obama or other, presents any documented fact contrary to the smear you have presented as "PROOF!" they are ignored and the crazy ignorant comments continue. And I have yet to see one of your claims that couldn't quickly be dismissed with 2 minutes of googling. The goal of your threads has nothing to do with finding the truth. You should just create a thread for proud racists and cease the subterfuge.

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