Originally posted by jamie83
So rather than say these discussions have no place in educated society, I would suggest the the purpose of an educated society is to allow people discover the truth. This can never happen if the issues aren't discussed.

But there is no discussion. There is just smear, more smear, paranoid scaremongering and more smearing.

Let me put it this way - McCain isn't getting this kind of smear.

Why?

Originally posted by schrodingers dog

Well, the second post in the thread characterized critiques of Obama like this: "These attacks are usually false, racist, xenophobic, and ugly."

I addressed these comments and their context. So don't keep bringing it back up to make a point which they do not address.

You definitely did not address how you justify calling people racists who raise questions about Obama. You simply blew it off and tried to change the subject.

The truth is the time after time the posts made by people defending Obama have accused people who criticize Obama as being racists. Your post was just another in a long series of such posts.

What I see here is for some people Obama supporters seem to think they should be entitled to bash George Bush, bash the Republicans, and bash America all they want while expecting that Obama should be free from such criticism.

Originally posted by neformore

But there is no discussion. There is just smear, more smear, paranoid scaremongering and more smearing.

Let me put it this way - McCain isn't getting this kind of smear.

Why?

You're incorrect that there is no discussion. The "Obama and the Bilderberger" thread I started had a lot of discussion. Everything I posted in that thread was factual. It was posted before the MSM ever heard of James Johnson.

The thread on Obama's birth certificate is still in progress. The Certificate of Birth released by the Obama campaign has been misrepresented as a "birth certificate" on Obama's site, and it has been photoshopped. Maybe there is something to the story, maybe not. That's what the purpose of discussing it is about. But the Obama supporters seem, in unison, to prefer the idea that we should just accept the released photoshopped document as proof of something. That's not what we do here.

I would suggest that McCain isn't getting much attention because he's been around for 25 years. People know him and know where he stands. Democrats respect him and have worked with him in the past. He's not perfect, but he's been vetted over the years.

Obama is a completely unknown commodity who's campaigning on one of the most nebulous platforms in history -"Change" and "Hope". He is being criticized time after time because of things that come out of his own mouth, and the mouth of his wife.

He's being criticized for claiming he stands for one thing and yet time after time saying things that aren't congruent for what he claims to stand for. This is why he lost many major primaries in the last few weeks by double-digits. He couldn't get over 30% in some states once people started seeing who he really is.

When a politician continually has to make public appearances to "explain what he really meant" or "explain what Michelle really meant" it's not a good sign.

Originally posted by Hal9000
You know BH, for once I don't know if I totally agree with you on this. If we ignore these threads, and they continuously get bumped by those who do agree, to me it is like flashing an advertising banner in the recent posts.

I totally understand your point. And I have the same mixed feelings about it. But I know for a fact that most ATS members that I know and respect would rather talk on more of an intellectual level, even if we DO disagree. Disagreement and debate are great! And those CAN happen in those threads, they just don't often do.

To me, it's like playing in the mud. It's fun, but you're probably going to get dirty. I decided to stay out of those threads after I felt "dirty" defending Obama from some insane rumor. If people want to think his brother knows something about the way he was raised, even though they didn't meet each other until Obama was 24, let them think that! It's not like I'm going to convince them otherwise. They think Obama has "Muslim ties" (whatever that is) and has a terrorist agenda for this country. They're scared to death and shaking in their boots. I can't help that.

They're not going to vote for him anyway. They're scouring the Internet trying to find everything bad about him that they can. Why? Because on the issues, he looks pretty good for this country, but they have fears and doubts about him because he's different than anything we've had in the White House.

"He's a Muslim"! they cry. "He and his wife are racist"! "He hates America"! "He wasn't even born here - He can't be president"! "He's a felon"!

People who are thinking these things and making thread after thread about them are afraid of something else and FINDING and MANUFACTURING reasons to get people to fear Obama. And defending these ridiculous notions only gives them power. After all, if they're ridiculous, why give them credence by arguing with them? That's just the conclusion I came to.

I think ATS is being used to spread this gossip, and I don't want it to go unchallenged.

I have the same exact feelings. I totally understand. That's why the threads are seductive to me. Because I feel I need to do something about it. And I hope people aren't dumb enough to just believe this stuff. Maybe I have faith that they aren't. But I do hope they look stuff up and find out for themselves. Think with a critical mind.

I think I will continue to do so, but I will try to remain as civil as possible. I think that will also help to reach your goal of raising the quality of this forum.

I totally support you in that and wish you good luck!

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I'm going to stand behind BH on this one. As they have already said we can raise the quality of this forums threads by simply ignoring the trash that appears on it. It is a self filtering process. We can do the same in this very thread by using the little Ignore button.


That said...

lets remember to stick to the topic at hand... How to raise the quality of this forums threads. If you insist on talking about another topic... Why not create a New thread for it?



Coven


[edit on 6/16/2008 by coven]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I have been seduced into the defense of "my candidate" one too many times on these ridiculous threads. And I'm making a personal pledge to NOT participate in these meaningless, mudslinging threads any more. I invite you to join me.

If you feel you can no longer participate in discussions of this nature, that's fine, and you have every right to opt out. What you don't have is the right to decide what other posters choose to discuss.

This particular post for example strikes me as a lame attempt at getting the moderators to intercede on the behalf of Obama supporters. I know you're going to say that wasn't your intention, so spare me the rhetoric.

I want to talk about the issues, not the rumors of the religion of the candidate and not his birth certificate and not what his estranged brother supposedly said or what he called his wife. We have an important election coming up and we need to vote on what's important, not nonsensical rumors and trivialities.

What you really want is for everyone to stop looking at all the racist affilliations Obama has, all the examples of poor judgement he's demonstrated, and exclude his Muslim heritage and familial connections from the discussion. I'm sorry, but these are valid issues for a man who wants to be the President of the United States.

Do you honestly believe a man with such racist viewpoints, poor judgment, and ties to the Muslim religion will have the best interests of Americans at heart? I don't.

I'm a dog trainer and the VERY best way to train a dog not to do something is to IGNORE the bad and PRAISE the good. Now, I'm not saying that ATS members are dogs, but some dog psychology actually works on humans, too, if you know what I mean. Ignore a behavior and it will fizzle out.

A poor analogy at best. Human beings are a lot more complex intellectually than dogs. If you really believe the training you use on dogs will work on people, you're seriously misguided.



[edit on 6/16/08 by LLoyd45]

Originally posted by LLoyd45
If you feel you can no longer participate in discussions of this nature, that's fine, and you have every right to opt out. What you don't have is the right to decide what other posters choose to discuss.

I agree. And I have not done that.

This particular post for example strikes me as a lame attempt at getting the moderators to intercede on the behalf of Obama supporters.

If I wanted the moderators to intercede, I would ask them to by sending a U2U or Complaint.

What you really want

Thanks for your opinion.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Thanks for your opinion.

You're Welcome, and your reply demonstrates that you have no true desire to debate anything intellectually. You simply expect other people to agree with you despite the facts at hand.

[edit on 6/16/08 by LLoyd45]