Over 40 Million Dead Babies - Will Either Obama Or McCain Stop The American Abortion Holocaust?

Originally posted by pause4thought
reply to post by chickenshoes

 

An organ is not a human being. A vulnerable human being capable of feeling pain.

I have previously pointed out that an unborn child is a genetically separate individual. He/she is dependent on the mother, but not part of her body, as many unthinkingly argue.

An organ, on the other hand, is.

It's the ORGAN that got you into the trouble in the first place !

The quest for utopia is ongoing always.

Abortion obviously given scientific evidence is not the road to it

There is no denying the images, and the procedure itself is a nasty invasive thing that can have real negative consequences.

A womans right to choose, refers to her right to choose when she gets pregnant, the method of choice is up for debate. I am pro choice, I think the choice of abortion however should be eliminated

We have the pil, condoms and then there is the abortion pill which can be used within a day or two

My solution to eliminate Abortions of the invasive kind would be the morning after pill

In theory it is still and I have beliefs regarding the moment of inception honestly... But this would be a fair compromise...

You know when the rubber broke, you know if you forgot the pill or just screwed up.

Right to choose, then choose, you either want a child or you don't there is no need to waste 2 months and then scrape a formed humanoid shape however miniscule from inside your uterus, it's a repugnant practice that really should be emergency only.

and this wouldn't shut the religous right down entirely but it would sure make alot of people who believe in a human soul alot happier including myself

The right to choose, something women should be able to have and frankly that ability exists without the invasive abortion procedure, really without ru486 also, but for sake of arguments and accident happens... fair is fair

But I think the invention of the pil, makes abortion a non neccessary evil in 99% of the cases

I would suggest planned parent hood make it freely available so money isn't a factor

Originally posted by mopusvindictus

A womans right to choose, refers to her right to choose when she gets pregnant, the method of choice is up for debate. I am pro choice, I think the choice of abortion however should be eliminated

You contradict yourself, how can you be Pro Choice and then turn right around and say you want to take someones personal choice away? You can't have it both ways. It is none of yours or the governments business what a Woman or anyone for that matter does to their own body, it is their body so there for there consequence. I would say until you realize what Pro Choice actually means I would quit saying you was Pro Choice.

Myself being Pro Choice I can accept your CHOICE to stick you nose where it does not belong but I don't have to agree with it.

If everyone would just think instead of running their mouths on how "practical" abortion is they would see it for what it is. It is murder because we are human beings and the proof is simply, "us."

Here we are reading, typing and breathing but that isn't what makes us viable. The capabilities to do such things were being miraculously formed looooong before anyone we knew we were even coming to our life here, to our chair and even to ATS of all places.

This makes anyone standing up for abortion stupid. Not defending human life for what it is makes you a coward. Obama is the biggest of both.

Like I said. Quit yabbering and think about it. At least do that.

reply to post by MandM


There are already too damn many of us as it is. Also, you want babies brought into the world by people who don't want the child. Please stop thumping your bible in everyones face! We all don't subscribe to your belief that life begins at conception. Some of us believe that the soul doesn't enter the body until birth.

My esteemed opponent whatukno and I were recently assigned an ATS Debate on this subject:

Round 2: whatukno v Ian McLean: Abortion

The topic: “Abortion Should Be Illegal.”


It was a tough one for both of us to argue. Hopefully we did each side justice; we tried. So, bump to mention and link in this thread, and encourage feedback. Debate judges: please ignore any feedback, especially if anyone picks apart my arguments.

Christian Bush Sr. didn't stop it.
Fake Christian Bill Clinton didn't stop it.
Christian Bush Jr. didn't stop it x 2.


Do you think it can be stopped?

Neither of these presidential candidates will make that happen. That is up to state governments if they want to bring about a change.


It will remain a bartering chip for some kind of swing/fringe vote when the time comes, and will be ignored by either candidate.

Get real.

[edit on 16-9-2008 by DeadFlagBlues]

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
Christian Bush Sr. didn't stop it.
Fake Christian Bill Clinton didn't stop it.
Christian Bush Jr. didn't stop it x 2.


Do you think it can be stopped?

Neither of these presidential candidates will make that happen. That is up to state governments if they want to bring about a change.

It may very well pass into law someday and then what do you have....the black market street abortions? finding fetus in the trash bin and a dieing girl that could have went in to have the procedure done but was denied because a bunch of religious bible thumping I think my opinion should trump everyone that doesn't believe what I believe lunatics got passed into law something that should have been her choice and none of their business!!

I will say it again the Government nor you or anyone else should have the right to tell anyone much less pass a law on what to do with there bodies.... Nobody is forcing you to get an abortion nor is some other women getting an abortion your problem or affecting you in anyway other then stepping on your moral superiority. Why is it you think that this is your problem or better yet should be a problem for a presidential candidate... is there not more important issues wrong with this country that should be addressed? With all the unemployment, government shady doings, corporate profiteering, diseases that should be cured, wars for the sake of a select few individuals moneybags and a whole laundry list of other problems do you feel less important then abortion?

It makes me sad that a once great nation is at the brink of ruin and all you so called Christians can blast on about is taking someone else's choices away because you feel some twisted moral right to impose YOUR personal beliefs on everyone that dose not follow your religion.

I fully understand that these type of posts usually get skipped over because it doesn't clash with your moral beliefs yes abortion in some cases would be considered bad to me like the girl that likes having sex unprotected that gets out and keeps getting them because she doesn't believe in protection but that is still her choice and her emotional and psychological downfall not yours.

It appears to me that this world would be better off if people would try to fix crap that actually mattered instead of being a busy body and trying to police things that they have no business policing in the first place. How about passing something like politicians that accept bribes to be stripped of all their wealth and serve a slight prison term for betraying the peoples trust? I would vote on something like that before I would ever consider taking someones personal bodily choice away especially since it dose not pertain to me in the first place.

OH!! OH!! How about voting to set up a tribunal of 1 person per state every year to call all the corrupt officials we get stuck with every election to account for the betraying and lieing of the people?

If only people would wake up to the real problems troubling this nation and world....bah!!!!!!


BTW Ian McLean I liked your side of the debate and thought you did a good job

Once again this is my outlook on things and my opinion should someone take offense to something I said well... being a pro choice kinda guy I choose not to care. Like most of you use your RIGHT to CHOOSE to choose to stick your nose in the business of others.

reply to post by MandM


The OP is just wrong in my opinion. Why should this matter even consider the government? It is personal decicision whether people want to do abortion or not. If they keep creating Karma by fornication and seeding babies recklesly it is their matter, not governments. These kind of topics make me always think that how independent people really are? Can they actually decide anything by themselves or do they just want to pose their ideologies upon others??

Utter crap

Sincerely,

-v

Originally posted by Aleksander

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
Christian Bush Sr. didn't stop it.
Fake Christian Bill Clinton didn't stop it.
Christian Bush Jr. didn't stop it x 2.


Do you think it can be stopped?

Neither of these presidential candidates will make that happen. That is up to state governments if they want to bring about a change.

It may very well pass into law someday and then what do you have....the black market street abortions? finding fetus in the trash bin and a dieing girl that could have went in to have the procedure done but was denied because a bunch of religious bible thumping I think my opinion should trump everyone that doesn't believe what I believe lunatics got passed into law something that should have been her choice and none of their business!!

Well, I rarely say this, because I'm always right and backed by facts () IN MY OPINION, accountability for ones actions is always the best policy. It should be a matter of black market abortions, but of a young woman taking sole responsibility for not having safe sex. Life is beautiful, and because you're 16 and stressed is no reason to take a life that could possibly flourish into an incredible human being.

I don't much like the "They can do whatever they want with their bodies."

Firstly, it isn't their body.

Secondly, that's what has them in this predicament in the first place.

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues

Originally posted by Aleksander

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues


I don't much like the "They can do whatever they want with their bodies."

Firstly, it isn't their body.

Secondly, that's what has them in this predicament in the first place.

Edit: I removed my reply as it would do me no good to respond to you.

all i can say is IF that is what you believe then.

[edit on 16-9-2008 by Aleksander]

reply to post by Aleksander


OmGlolzzz.(Did I do that right?)


I'm in a midnight troll battle with a 15 year old. What has my life come to?

I'm speaking specifically the baby. At conception, there is a life within the mother. It may not technically be "aware" or developed enough to matter, but regardless. There is a baby, that may make it, may not. If it does, it's a life, and by proxy as precious as the mother's. As we should allow the mother to live, the same right to life should be given to the being inside her.

The right or all things to live is kind of a wild concept. Blowing your mind, I know.

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
reply to post by Aleksander

 

OmGlolzzz.(Did I do that right?) beats me sounds like gibbrish to me


I'm in a midnight troll battle with a 15 year old. What has my life come to?

I'm speaking specifically the baby. At conception, there is a life within the mother. It may not technically be "aware" or developed enough to matter, but regardless. There is a baby, that may make it, may not. If it does, it's a life, and by proxy as precious as the mother's. As we should allow the mother to live, the same right to life should be given to the being inside her.

The right or all things to live is kind of a wild concept. Blowing your mind, I know.

I'm sorry I edited my post to keep from personaly attacking you as i still will not attack you or will I?. You have no idea what my age is and i like many others believe life does not start at conception if you want to preach find yourself a religious forum you holier then thou attitude has been tried to many times and it falls on deaf ears I refuse to believe people like you have any right to tell another what they can do with their life. The mother was here first her life comes first, troll on that!! What is it with you religious types you don't like what you read so you start with your flaming and preaching if i wanted to hear that crap i would go to church. I will not reply to anymore of your post as i have read enough of your $#it to see that your just another overly religious troll that can't see through the crap to mind your own business and let others mind theirs. bye bye now

It's not just the woman's issue.
How easy or hard is it for guys to 'mess' around, get a woman pregnant and just give her half the money for an abortion?
Where's your son or daughter at?

Fact; Most abortions are for convenience. Getting rid of the fruit of sown wild oats!
It makes me so angry that people won't address the issues, just "Let a woman do what she (ignorantly) wants.

To the pro lifers: if your so pro life,
Why don't you take action and go block some cemetaries. now that'dd be really pro life


No seriously, wether or not someone should get an abortion is a PERSONAL choise and is different in every situation.

The governement should have NO say in it whatsoever. IMHO

Letting raped girls have the children of the ones that raped them is (at least to me) worse then aborting those children.

On the other hand, girls who use abortion as a form of birth control, are really wrong. And someday they'll pay the pshychologigal price for it.

For me it all boils down to personal choise, something no government can ever regulate.

I'm a Christian. I believe in reason and the benefits that science can bring to humanity. I'm a student of John Locke (well his work anyway - he's a bit crumbly now himself). I believe the 1st Vatican Council was correct in its declaration that reason and faith are not incompatible and that people can discover God through reason alone without revelation. So, I'm Catholic too. Catholic and reasonable (and I try my best to be both as well as I can). Abortion horrifies me emotionally but in today's world I think it should be entirely disassociated from religion and politics and in an age that (apparently) celebrates reason be dealt with according to reason.

Arguments about the "soul" etc are irrelevant and certainly not the purview of our politicians (which is why Pelosi and Biden galled me so much in their recent excursions into theology as politicians.)

On an objective level abortion is murder - i.e. the taking of a human life.

Is it human? Reason and science have demonstrated in recent decades that what defines, biologically, "human" is the particular genetic code. The zygote, blastocyst, fetus has this genetic identification as human.

Has it life? Science gives us seven characteristics of life (though not all are always essential):

1. Homeostasis: regulation of internal environment (manifest in zygote cells)
   
2. Organization: composed of one or more cells (clearly yes)
   
3. Metabolism: consumption of energy (yes)
   
4. Growth: (yes)
   
5. Adaptation: (yes)
   
6. Response to Stimuli: not (only) "pain" etc (yes)
   
7. Reproduction: potential (this is one of the not always essential characteristics, hence the infertile are not considered without life)
   

Objective reason and science without reference to "souls" etc declares that from, and including, the embryonic stage we are speaking of a human life. We are hence not speaking of a "potential human being" but a "human being with potential."

Where politics is concerned surely the most fundamental purpose of government is the protection of the lives of (all) those human lifes under its jurisdiction. Showing no favour for or against any individual for religious, theological or other such ethereal reasons.

[edit on 16-9-2008 by Supercertari]

Originally posted by LiquidMirage
This is the most idiotic statement I've ever read! Joseph Mengele performed "legitimate” medical procedures too. Are you going to defend that butcher as well? Something tells me you would as long as it advances your liberal agenda.

I knew it was only a matter of time before some lib-hater would resort to a logical fallacy known as "Reductio ad Hitlerum" (reduction to Hitler), or, in this case, "Reductio ad Mengelum".

Point is, as it relates to McCain etc, the next POTUS will have to make important decisions that will result in life and death situations of Americans, be it from diabetes, drunk driving or one of the wars we are fighting. Fetus' rights or lack thereof are an important issue, but so are lives of those of us who got to fully gestate and graduate from college.

To concentrate on wedge issues is just wrong.


[edit on 16-9-2008 by buddhasystem]

reply to post by Aleksander


I'm an Atheist there, rampage.

Originally posted by XyZeR
To the pro lifers: if your so pro life,
Why don't you take action and go block some cemetaries. now that'dd be really pro life

No seriously, wether or not someone should get an abortion is a PERSONAL choise and is different in every situation.

The governement should have NO say in it whatsoever. IMHO

Letting raped girls have the children of the ones that raped them is (at least to me) worse then aborting those children.

On the other hand, girls who use abortion as a form of birth control, are really wrong. And someday they'll pay the pshychologigal price for it.

For me it all boils down to personal choise, something no government can ever regulate.

Weak humor and weak argument.

1% of all abortions stem from rape and/or incest.

Where as the majority of aborted babies comes from "No/Improper use of contraceptives or prophylactics."

[edit on 16-9-2008 by DeadFlagBlues]

The Good Book clearly states you don't get your soul until you're born. So that right there lays waste to any "Its a human!" arguement.

Also, realize, those aborted were probably because the family couldn't handle a child, the mother was young, so forth. So you'd probably have 40million more people on welfare. Not to mention the mothers would have gotten welfare for the child as it grew up.

So imagine a much much much larger national deficit if all 40million had been born and getting welfare.