Kinross Ufo crash..could it still be there??

"G,"

Originally posted by bluestreak53

Originally posted by Frank Warren
Good Day "G"
I'm glad to hear that the family was not too disrupted by the perp's "fun 'n' games." Sadly there seems to be a pattern by the military in the handling of UFO related incidents where a death is involved, e.g., Mantell, Brown and Davidson etc. In talking to family members of Davidson's, his mother believed the "UFOs had something to do with her son's death" up until the day she passed.

With regards to the GLDC hoax, I wish I had myself trusted my initial suspicions that the whole thing looked very questionable. I did feel I should tell one of Moncla's nephews and his daughter as I had told them I would tell them if there were any new developments. I did caution them that the claims of the discovery of the F-89 had to be confirmed as evidence was minimal at that point (back in early September 2006).

I think all of us that have been doing this any length of time have a "built-in sense of skepticism" that comes into play in these matters; the perp did a good job in presentation and appearance, it gave us all pause . . . in short he was a "fair con-man"; however, like most con-men, they either get to greedy or stay in their respective game to long, and then the walls come tumbling down.

I was wondering what incident involved Davidson?

Davidson and Brown were the first military UFO investigators (that we know of) who gave their lives while investigating the UFO phenomenon; the specif case at the time of their demise was "Maury Island."

I did recently obtain the USAF accident report for the mysterious crash from Otis Air Force Base where pilot Lt. Suggs survived but the radar operator disappeared with the plane and neither were ever found. The report is wierd because it makes no mention of the wreck that should have been in shallow water in Buzzards Bay. This incident occured just a few weeks before Moncla and Wilson disappeared.

I also recently obtained the USAF accident report for the crash which killed Kinross F-89 pilot Lt. Moncla's friend and neighbour, Lt. John Schmidt on the same day Moncla and Wilson went missing. (Note: That is the news article at the top of this thread which I originally compiled and posted to the UFOBC website). One thing that is strange about the report is that it includes some cockpit conversation fragments that were apparently broadcast unintentionally from by Schmidt and/or Collins before their F-89 crashed. This is similar to the radio transmission that Lt. Mingenbach heard from Lt. Moncla 40 minutes after his F-89 disappeared from radar.

Fascinating! I applaud your efforts! Are the fragments "transcripts" or do you actually have the "audio" on site?

Thanks Frank to you and others such as James Carrion of MUFON who diligently investigated the GLDC hoax.

An excellent report was also prepared by "Dave Watson" (MUFON) as well and I received some help personally from a (local to the area) mainstream reporter who paid heed to the story.

Cheers,
Frank

reply to post by Boruma


Yes, the information was posted to a website. No, there is no evidence the company ever existed. Note that because someone puts a a website and creates a forum, that doesn't mean that any of the information is true, right?

There is no evidence of a coverup and there is no evidence that the man who calls himself Adam Jimenez was ever on Lake Superior. "Adam" did talk to people through email and cell phone. I corresponded with him by email myself and he told me that he had obtained some of his information on the Kinross Incident from our website. That doesn't mean that Adam Jimenez is his real name or that anything he said was true. You may recall that there was no photographs of any persons from the alleged company or any photographs of their boat, sonar equipment or ROV. Noone in the Great Lakes diving and wreck hunting community has ever heard of "Adam Jimenez" or the Great Lakes Dive Company.

Note that they did choose a name that is very similar to a real company name (which still has a website) and this appears to have been deliberately done to create confusion.

Please people. Don't believe everything you read, especially everything that gets posted to the Internet. There are unfortunately, some very mischevious and ill-intentioned people who love to create confusion.

Good Day Boruma,

Originally posted by Boruma
This was a while ago, but I do remember reading about this somewhere. I spent quite a bit of time on it. The GLDC did exist, I visited there website and even obtained some contact information for the company. I remember attempting to show a couple friends what I had found and the website was gone. There wasn't a trace left anywhere on the internet that I could find. Call it a hoax or whatever you want but I was reading about this when it all went down. It was a real company and on the GLDC website they actually talked about this find. There was a bit of confusion as to what country had rights to it if I remember correctly. Wow, cant believe I am hearing about this now when its been so long. It was definitely covered up.

There is in fact a "Great Lakes Dive Company"; I contacted them early on (along with a good many other researchers) and they knew nothing of Kinross, or this so-called Adam Jiminez.

The web-site of course was there, but was part of the charade (the biggest part). I also talked to the Canadian authorities who similarly were never contacted by anyone, let alone someone called "Adam Jimenez." or "GLDC."

Let me repeat, there was no cover-up in regards to GLDC, because there was no GLDC, pertaining to Kinross!"This case was thoroughly investigated--it is a hoax period!! No ifs ands or buts!"

Respectfully,
Frank

Originally posted by Frank Warren
Davidson and Brown were the first military UFO investigators (that we know of) who gave their lives while investigating the UFO phenomenon; the specif case at the time of their demise was "Maury Island."

That was a very strange and tragic incident. I did read that the aircraft which crashed was recently "re-discovered" in Washington.

Originally posted by Frank Warren

Originally posted by bluestreak53
I also recently obtained the USAF accident report for the crash which killed Kinross F-89 pilot Lt. Moncla's friend and neighbour, Lt. John Schmidt on the same day Moncla and Wilson went missing. One thing that is strange about the report is that it includes some cockpit conversation fragments that were apparently broadcast unintentionally from by Schmidt and/or Collins before their F-89 crashed. This is similar to the radio transmission that Lt. Mingenbach heard from Lt. Moncla 40 minutes after his F-89 disappeared from radar.

Fascinating! I applaud your efforts! Are the fragments "transcripts" or do you actually have the "audio" on site?

The conversation fragments are quoted in several statements submitted by USAF members to the Investigation Board and in some of the sworn testimony.

Most members of Schmidt's squadron seemed to believe that Lt. Schmidt put the F-89 into a dive in an attempt to break the sound barrier - as a sonic boom was heard. I have a different opinion that Schmidt put it into a dive for different reasons and tried to conceal this from Collins by indicating the plane had gone into a dive through a mechanical fault.

Lt. William Gilmore states in his statement to the Accident Investigation Board regarding the Schmidt/Collins crash:

I heard someone on Channel 3, UHF, say "Oh sh_t", then a pause and someone said "Son-of-a-bitch" then a very slight pause and someone said "Down boy, down boy", then I heard someone say "It won't come up." Also, at some time, either after the first or second statement, I heard someone say "Check your interphone." The voices that swore sounded very panicky.

I found it to be of personal interest because the statements seem to be consistent with the recording that I seem to remember viewing (as a Moncla related memory while he was held captive).

Most people will not know that the pilot of the first F-89 that went out to search for the missing F-89 from Kinross thought he heard Lt. Moncla make a short radio transmission about 40 minutes after his F-89 disappeared from radar. The transmission sounded like an unintentional transmission from internal communication between pilot and radar operator on interphone. What he recalls hearing was "I think we had better.." which I believe was what Moncla was saying to Wilson when he caught view of the bogie during the intercept "I think we had better head back" or something like that.

"G"

Originally posted by bluestreak53

Originally posted by Frank Warren
Davidson and Brown were the first military UFO investigators (that we know of) who gave their lives while investigating the UFO phenomenon; the specif case at the time of their demise was "Maury Island."

That was a very strange and tragic incident. I did read that the aircraft which crashed was recently "re-discovered" in Washington.

Actually that's a misnomer, as the plane was never lost in the first place. Anyone doing a tiny bit of research would/could find out the location of the wreckage.

Unlike Roswell, Maury Island stayed in the papers for weeks due the death of Davidson & Brown, and the post investigation.

Originally posted by Frank Warren

Originally posted by bluestreak53

I also recently obtained the USAF accident report for the crash which killed Kinross F-89 pilot Lt. Moncla's friend and neighbour, Lt. John Schmidt on the same day Moncla and Wilson went missing. One thing that is strange about the report is that it includes some cockpit conversation fragments that were apparently broadcast unintentionally from by Schmidt and/or Collins before their F-89 crashed. This is similar to the radio transmission that Lt. Mingenbach heard from Lt. Moncla 40 minutes after his F-89 disappeared from radar.

Fascinating! I applaud your efforts! Are the fragments "transcripts" or do you actually have the "audio" on site?

The conversation fragments are quoted in several statements submitted by USAF members to the Investigation Board and in some of the sworn testimony.

Most members of Schmidt's squadron seemed to believe that Lt. Schmidt put the F-89 into a dive in an attempt to break the sound barrier - as a sonic boom was heard. I have a different opinion that Schmidt put it into a dive for different reasons and tried to conceal this from Collins by indicating the plane had gone into a dive through a mechanical fault.

Lt. William Gilmore states in his statement to the Accident Investigation Board regarding the Schmidt/Collins crash:

I heard someone on Channel 3, UHF, say "Oh sh_t", then a pause and someone said "Son-of-a-bitch" then a very slight pause and someone said "Down boy, down boy", then I heard someone say "It won't come up." Also, at some time, either after the first or second statement, I heard someone say "Check your interphone." The voices that swore sounded very panicky.

I found it to be of personal interest because the statements seem to be consistent with the recording that I seem to remember viewing (as a Moncla related memory while he was held captive).

Most people will not know that the pilot of the first F-89 that went out to search for the missing F-89 from Kinross thought he heard Lt. Moncla make a short radio transmission about 40 minutes after his F-89 disappeared from radar. The transmission sounded like an unintentional transmission from internal communication between pilot and radar operator on interphone. What he recalls hearing was "I think we had better.." which I believe was what Moncla was saying to Wilson when he caught view of the bogie during the intercept "I think we had better head back" or something like that.

As is usually the pattern, there is more to these cases then meets the eye.

Cheers,
Frank

WHAT is the object in the bottom pics is it a ufo or the jet please verify thank you.

Originally posted by blasphemusbudda
WHAT is the object in the bottom pics is it a ufo or the jet please verify thank you.

They are both just junk because neither is or was a photograph. They were originally presented as a sonar image but in either case, they are still nothing more than someone's half hour of effort on photoshop to direct people's attention away from the real mysteries involved in the Kinross incident.

reply to post by Rhain


Your avatar is really creepy because it reminds me so much of a memory I have where I was sitting in a line up waiting for a vehicle inspection at an ICBC in Burnaby, BC and I heard Eartha Kitt singing "Santa Baby" on the radio. It was while I was lost looking at the raindrops flowing down the window of my car window that I remembered listening to Eartha sing this song while I was sitting in the ready room on alert at Kinross. I liked the song so much I had pulled up a chair beside the counter where the radio was and I was trying to hear every word. Lt. Mingenbach was sitting at a table in the center of the room and was giving me a hard time about enjoying the song and pointing out the artist was a black singer as if that would make any difference. Bill didn't seem to remember this when I talked to him about it but I tell you that the memory sure seems real to me. In any case, the song was for certain being played on the radio the week before Moncla disappeared in 1953.

Insane, I live in thunder bay, makes me wanna chill on the beach and watch for UFO's flyin over the lake all day... crazyness!

intersting story and thanks for sharing,but i doubt the craft is still there...lol the governemnt are all over these things like white on rice.

no way they would just let it sit there imo.

Originally posted by bluestreak53

Originally posted by thefreepatriot
Very good article, The group or company has since been threatened severly... It is clear there is an object down there... What it is exactly I do not think we will ever know.

If you read through the links you will discover the "dive company" is non-existent and never existed or set foot in Lake Superior. It is a hoax. The reason they closed their website is because the hoaxer was challenged to provide some evidence to back up his story - which he never did. I hope you aren't saying that the crude photoshop images are evidence. If you followed the original story as it evolved on the Internet, you would know that the story went from suspicious to ridiculous.

He said she said.... I'm guessing you heard of "Spin"? It's a matter of perspective and at what extreme will those in power go to so they can discredit those who seen or know to much. Some have been threatened.. some have been killed/assassinated and then those who disappeared.

Just because we don't know the whole story.. and we make up things to justify why things occur does not mean it's factual or the truth. Saying it often enough or having other sources does not make it so also unless one is connected in the know 100%.

That could be Photoshop.. it could also be a small pebble someone threw in the water where the crash occurred there by giving actual accounts of the object and location. Hence why some are asking for "size" of this object.

Can an institution put a gag order on other companies? You decide what the powers be are able to do.. but you can only "imagine" unless like I said you're in the "know".

The CIA also has issued NSLs to obtain personal financial records and other types of information, although agency officials claim to have issued fewer than the military.

That the US military and the CIA are now conducting domestic surveillance, building up their own independent intelligence records on US citizens without any judicial oversight whatsoever, is a significant step in the direction of a police state.

National Security Letters are administrative subpoenas that have been used primarily by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). The use of such subpoenas, first authorized in the 1970s, was greatly expanded by the passage of the Patriot Act in 2001. That law allowed the letters to be issued in connection with the surveillance of US residents or visitors who were not the immediate targets of an investigation, and it allowed other federal agencies, including the Department of Homeland Security, to use NSLs. The act did not mention the CIA or the military.

Recipients of NSLs—i.e., banks or other institutions—are placed under a gag order. They are forbidden to reveal the contents of the NSLs or even acknowledge their existence. Those whose personal financial records have been requested by the government and turned over by their banks, credit card companies, etc. are never informed. Unlike other subpoenas and warrants, no approval from a judge is required for the issuance of these letters.

source;
www.wsws.org...

Editted for spelling...

[edit on 27-5-2008 by Willbert]

Hi Wilbert,

Originally posted by Willbert
He said she said.... I'm guessing you heard of "Spin"? It's a matter of perspective and at what extreme will those in power go to so they can discredit those who seen or know to much. Some have been threatened.. some have been killed/assassinated and then those who disappeared.

I think the point of your post is that those in power can silence those who know too much. This point I don't dispute.

My point is that there is no evidence of a UFO crash associated with the Kinross incident. This is a completely new "spin" introduced by the person who called himself "Adam Jimenez" and made various claims on a website and to various other sources back in August and early September 2006.

There are many original sources that provide the background for the incident. These include The official USAF Accident Report, newspaper stories from 1953 and Donald Keyhoe's book "The Flying Saucer Conspiracy". The key facts pertaining to the disappearance are:
- an F-89 from Kinross Air Force Base was scrambled on an Air Defense Mission to identify and unknown
- the F-89 flew out to the middle of Lake Superior under the guidance of USAF personnel at two radar stations
- the F-89 was observed to merge with the bogie on radar. At the time of the intercept both vehicles were at 7000 or 8000 feet altitude.
- the IFF signal from the F-89 was lost from radar
- radar operators initially assumed the F-89 was flying in formation with the bogie as the bogie continued on its original track
- when the F-89 failed to separate from the bogie on radar and failed to respond to continued radio calls, it was assumed the F-89 was lost and a search was begun

There has always been questions and theories about what happened to the F-89. The official USAF theory as presented to the public and written in the Accident Investigation Board's report is that the F-89 probably crashed into Lake Superior soon after it disappeared from radar. Another theory is that the F-89 was captured by the UFO. The reason for this theory relates to the fact that the last observed altitude for the F-89 was at 7000 or 8000 feet above the lake.

There is no evidence that Adam Jimenez "knew too much" and was silenced by the authorities for this reason. He made false claims that the Canadian government was blocking his access to the site as he had never even requested access to the site. The original quote of an Associated Press news story was a hoax. It is certainly true that many of the people who were posting on the GLDC website forum in before it was shut down were very diligently asking questions of "Adam" trying to obtain evidence to confirm his claims and this was certainly making him quite uncomfortable.

Good Day Wilbert, et al,

Originally posted by Willbert

Originally posted by bluestreak53

Originally posted by thefreepatriot
Very good article, The group or company has since been threatened severly... It is clear there is an object down there... What it is exactly I do not think we will ever know.

If you read through the links you will discover the "dive company" is non-existent and never existed or set foot in Lake Superior. It is a hoax. The reason they closed their website is because the hoaxer was challenged to provide some evidence to back up his story - which he never did. I hope you aren't saying that the crude photoshop images are evidence. If you followed the original story as it evolved on the Internet, you would know that the story went from suspicious to ridiculous.

He said she said.... I'm guessing you heard of "Spin"? It's a matter of perspective and at what extreme will those in power go to so they can discredit those who seen or know to much. Some have been threatened.. some have been killed/assassinated and then those who disappeared.

Just because we don't know the whole story.. and we make up things to justify why things occur does not mean it's factual or the truth. Saying it often enough or having other sources does not make it so also unless one is connected in the know 100%.

This has nothing to do with "spin, and or perspective" or "people in power" and or "threats"; this has everything to do with "research and investigation" as well as a "con" and a "con artist." Go here for one example of the investigation into GLDC.

The point you're missing is "we do know the whole story"; one of the biggest mistakes the perp made was providing so much rope (data that could be scrutinized) which he eventually hung himself with.

That could be Photoshop.. it could also be a small pebble someone threw in the water where the crash occurred there by giving actual accounts of the object and location. Hence why some are asking for "size" of this object.

What the images are is irrelevant, as there is no Adam Jimenez, or "Great Lakes Dive Company."

Can an institution put a gag order on other companies? You decide what the powers be are able to do.. but you can only "imagine" unless like I said you're in the "know".

Again, since the company doesn't and never did exist, the ability for the PTB to enact "gag orders" is moot.

Finally, although we don't know the motive for certain, it's my belief that this individual pulled this charade just to see how far "he could go" before he was "exposed." All this done without consideration of the families that have no closure for there "still missing" loved ones.

As stated before, if in fact there are "laws on the books" pertaining to lying about military equipment and or personnel, particularly when it concerns their ultimate demise (regarding the latter) then hopefully this individual will still get his just deserts.

Respectfully,
Frank

reply to post by Frank Warren


I agree with everything you say Frank, and I have read 90% of the posts in this thread.

I also agree that it must be a hoax, and a sick one at that since personnel died in the incident.

I just find the facts that the person responsible can't be tracked down and how on earth they planned to profit on this hoax very bloody suspicious.

BUT I'd still reserve judgement on this one due to that hoary old chestnut 'there is no smoke without fire' Radar contacts are not just 'lost' at 7000 feet, Even in 1953.

The transcripts of the radio tapes are very interesting if genuine.

Originally posted by angus1745
reply to post by Frank Warren

 

I agree with everything you say Frank, and I have read 90% of the posts in this thread.

I also agree that it must be a hoax, and a sick one at that since personnel died in the incident.

I just find the facts that the person responsible can't be tracked down and how on earth they planned to profit on this hoax very bloody suspicious.

BUT I'd still reserve judgement on this one due to that hoary old chestnut 'there is no smoke without fire' Radar contacts are not just 'lost' at 7000 feet, Even in 1953.


The transcripts of the radio tapes are very interesting if genuine.

The radio transcripts I quoted are from the Madison crash involving pilot Lt. John Schmidt. I don't know if you have read the testimony from Lt. Mingenbach about what he heard when he was sent to search for the lost F-89 over Lake Superior.

I am not sure on the motivation for this hoax, but I do see the possibility that it might be intentionally done to create confusion about the Kinross case. If that is the case, then they have succeeded in spades.

Whats next, the "Travis Walton UFO Crash"??

The "Titanic UFO Crash .. is it still there?"

I do think that it would have been possible to track down "Adam Jimenez" back when the hoax was still active if someone had put up the money to hire a private investigator to follow through the cell phone and email trails.

Unfortunately, the people who were doing this investigation were all involved part time with quite limited resources. I myself am not sure if the motive was profit or some other reason. I don't agree with some of those who have elaborated some quite specific scenarios for how this might have been used to generate profit.

I have concluded that whoever did this was doing this for more than "a personal laugh" and it is certainly true that whoever did this was quite willing to invest quite a bit of time in developing the website, running the forum, answering emails, and appearing as a radio guest with Linda Moulton Howe. Whoever did this was also quite familiar with the "UFO community" - by the way they specifically targeted NICAP and used that to get their message out on the UFO Updates list.

The point of the radar contacts being lost at 7000 feet is still one of the most mysterious aspects to this case however, if true, it does tend to point to the possibility the F-89 was "swallowed by the bogie" as has been allegedly stated by one of the radar operators from that time.

My belief is that the F-89 was captured by the bogie but the reasons for this belief are way too complicated for this forum.

Mornin' Angus,

Originally posted by angus1745
reply to post by Frank Warren

 

I agree with everything you say Frank, and I have read 90% of the posts in this thread.

I also agree that it must be a hoax, and a sick one at that since personnel died in the incident.

I just find the facts that the person responsible can't be tracked down and how on earth they planned to profit on this hoax very bloody suspicious.

BUT I'd still reserve judgement on this one due to that hoary old chestnut 'there is no smoke without fire' Radar contacts are not just 'lost' at 7000 feet, Even in 1953.

The transcripts of the radio tapes are very interesting if genuine.

The person responsible can has been tracked down; I don't believe "profit" was a factor, as the perp certainly knew his charade would come to an end, it was only a matter of time.

Let me be clear: with the exception of this person choosing this case to perpetrate a hoax, the "GLDC charade" has nothing to do with "factual events" that took place in regards to what has become known as the "Kinross Incident"; it does not negate any possible UFO explanations or the fact that "wreckage" may be resting on the lake bottom waiting to be found.

Aside from the "lack of sentiment" for the families involved., these acts tend to "muddy the waters" (no pun intended) in regards to research of "actual events" in the matter.

Cheers,
Frank

This is a case of ET 'Staging' the event way back in 1953, and allowing the plane to be found only recently. ET grabbed Lt Moncla and his plane, then put Moncla into a 'Stabilized specimen container' for storage.

The ET intervention is all about nuclear weapons and the plans of our nuclear war fighitng elite central bankers, to use them on us.

Frank Warren has all of the classic intelligence operatives pattern of planting 'Disinformation.'

We are the LIVING DEAD.

When that thought finally penetrates into your head, you will undertsand it all.

Another thread on this, with back and forth info added....

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Boruma;

There is a real company called Great Lakes Dives, but there never was a company named Great Lakes Dive Company. They claimed first to be an L.L.C. company, and then GLDC, Inc. According to the Michigan Secretary of State's Office, no company was ever registered in the State of Michigan by either GLDC, LLC or GLDC, Inc. MUFON spoke to the owner of Great Lakes Dive, and he stated that he was aware of the claims made by GLDC, but had no information as to who they were.

Just because a "company" claims to exist, it doesn't make it so. In addition, anyone with a computer can create a web site and call themselves anything they want. But the bottom line is that the company calling itself GLDC (or Great Lakes Dive Company) never existed. I worked this case extensively. I had the alleged side-scan sonar images evaluated by Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute, and they concluded that the side-scan sonar images were, in fact, photographs heavily edited to resemble side-scan sonar images "... and not very well at that".

I believe this was a "money grab" hoax. I fully expect that the plan was to allegedly go back out the next year to continue their research only to "find" that the UFO and F-89 were gone! "Of course", everyone would say, "the goverment sneaked in and recovered it". Then it would have been time for GLDC to announce, "But, hey, we've got these ROV videos from last year which you can purchase from us for only $???.?? (plus shipping and handling). Just send your credit card number to......"

Thanks to the hard work by MUFON, UFO*BC and other organizations, it never made it that far.


[edit on 7-6-2008 by NoStaw46]

[edit on 7-6-2008 by NoStaw46]