Kinross Ufo crash..could it still be there??

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posted on May, 26 2008 @ 02:03 AM
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On November 23, 1953, a US Air Force F-89C jet fighter interceptor was dispatched from Kinross Air Force Base near Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan, to identify an intruder that had appeared on radar. For thirty minutes, the jet raced out over Lake Superior under guidance from radar operators at a remote station on the Keweenaw Peninsula.

Suddenly, the return from the jet merged with that of the bogie it was chasing. The IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) signal from the jet was lost. The radar blip from the F-89 never reappeared.Radar blips of the aircraft and the UFO "merged" on the screen and the F-89 and its two-man crew were never found.

The F-89


General characteristics

Crew: 2
Length: 53 ft 10 in (16.4 m)
Wingspan: 60 ft 5 in (18.4 m)
Height: 17 ft 6 in (5.3 m)
Wing area: 606 ft² (56.3 m²)
Empty weight: 24,200 lb (11,000 kg)
Loaded weight: 42,250 lb (19,200 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 46,800 lb (21,200 kg)
Powerplant: 2× Allison J35-A-35A afterburning turbojets
Dry thrust: 5,600 lbf (24.9 kN) each
Thrust with afterburner: 7,400 lbf (32.9 kN)


Performance

Maximum speed: 636 mph (553 knots, 1,020 km/h)
Range: 1,367 mi (1,188 nm, 2,200 km)
Service ceiling 49,200 ft (15,000 m)
Rate of climb: 8,360 ft/min (42.5 m/s)
Wing loading: 69.7 lb/ft² (340.4 kg/m²)
Thrust/weight: 0.35 (3.4 N/kg)

Last position of impact!



Start Position and Time

The start position for the flight was Kinross Air Base at 18:22 EST.

End Position and Time

The end position for the F-89 when its return "merged" with its intercept target was 4800 N and 8649 W. The time the F-89 return merged with the target on radar is 18:55 EST.

Initial Bearing

The initial bearing for the F-89 was 300 degrees magnetic. Given magnetic declination of 1 degree 30 seconds west, the actual initial bearing would be 298.30T.

Final Turn and Bearing

The final bearing provided by GCI to the F-89 was a starboard turn to 20 degrees magnetic (18.30T) at 18:51 EST.

Previous to Final Turn and Bearing

The previous to final turn was a port turn to 270 degrees magnetic (268.30T) at 18:47 EST.

Pigeons to Home Plate

"Pigeons to Home Plate" was requested by the pilot about 18:50 EST. This was a request for a return bearing and distance to home base and was provided by GCI as "150 - 125 miles".

A large scale search was immediately launched. Its important to note that the aircraft was lost in late November and although the weather was stable, it was winter, snow covered the ground and the water of Lake Superior was freezing.



The Air Force later stated that the "UFO" turned out to be a Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) C-47 "On a night flight from Winnipeg, Manitoba, to Sudbury, Ontario Canada." The F-89 apparently had crashed for unknown reasons after breaking off the intercept. In answer to queries from the NATIONAL INVESTIGATIONS COMMITTEE ON AERIAL PHENOMENA (NICAP) in 1961 and again in 1963, RCAF spokesmen denied that one of their planes was involved. Squadron Leader W. B. Totman, noting that the C-47 was said to be on a flight plan over Canadian territory, said "... this alone would seem to make such an intercept unlikely."


Till this day the F-89, has never been found! but wait!

Amazing new photos have been released by The Great Lakes Dive Company concerning their discovery of the famous Kinross F-89 Scorpion jet fighter that disappeared over Lake Superior on November 23, 1953.


Radar information and the original search grid were available as to where the F-89 was believed to have gone down, so the company had area to investigate. They had just begun searching the area, using the new wide trajectory side scan sonar, and on their first pass located an object on the bottom. It was a plane and the scans proved it was a F-89. The port (left) wing was missing, probably sheared off as well as a piece of the rear tail wing. The starboard (right) wing was partially buried, due to the crash or the gradual build up of silt over the years.


Further evidence was uncovered using Hi Res scans which show that the canopy and the fuselage of the aircraft were intact. The groups took a total of 28 passes over the area, but were unsuccessful in finding the missing wing and tail section. "We have not been able to confirm that the bodies of the two pilots are inside the aircraft", explained Adam Jimenez, spokesman for the company ,"but with the canopy intact, one would assume that would be the case. However, the ROV survey would tell the tale."


< Jimenez stated, "We have confirmed the identity of the F-89 using several techniques. First, the general design of the aircraft is a complete match. Our scan shows an upswept tail section which is a design characteristic of only the F-89 (hence the model name "Scorpion"). Second, this aircraft has a wing pod. Also a design match to the F-89. Also the canopy location is a match. There are also other exact matches that I can't go into at this time. There were no other F-89s or similar aircraft lost over the middle of Lake Superior."


Initially, the object appeared to be large and almost tear-drop in shape. It was only 212.5 feet from the F89! Jimenez added, "But the scan showed something very interesting...a plow mark trailing behind the object (as if it had crashed). This plow mark caused us to focus our immediate attention on the object, we lowered our ROV (remotely operated vehicle) to it and confirmed that the mystery object was metallic, and also had a strike mark that matched the missing wing hole on the F-89c Scorpion. It is possible that the missing wing may be underneath the mystery object.
Low resoluton photo.

Blue - Trail from object as it crashed
Red - Object view from front
Yellow - Pushed lake bottom from impact
Black Box - Protects GPS and depth data
High resoluton photo.
Blue - Trial that object left when crashing
Red - Object partially buried
Yellow - Pushed up bottom sand from plowing of object
Black Box - Protects GPS and depth data
REFERENCES:

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.ufodigest.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.nicap.org...
www.ufobc.ca...

Let me know waht you think~!!




posted on May, 26 2008 @ 03:38 AM
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Here is some of the original documents!










posted on May, 26 2008 @ 04:58 AM
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Interesting story, star and flag, the last photo looks like a 'Lunar Sphere',
it would be useful to know the diameter of the craft, if all scans were at the same depth/magnification, then a comparison could be made with the aircraft's dimensions.
Good luck with the thread/investigation.
Regards,
Horsegiver.



posted on May, 26 2008 @ 07:09 AM
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reply to post by GUNSINWAR
 
Well researched and put together GUNS with documents and all very good. This report brung out to the open by you will give us more understanding of incedents of this nature which sometimes go by unnoticed if we don't dig into the past.

STAR & FLAG




posted on May, 26 2008 @ 08:17 AM
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You may want to check this link, www.ufocasebook.com...

It raises some serious questions about the authenticty of The Great Lakes Dive Company, and the images they claim are of the crashed aircraft.



posted on May, 26 2008 @ 08:22 AM
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Great thread. Star and flagged, great research.

I live in Sault Ste Marie, Ont. and this is something that has always intrigued me. Our local online news site ran the story of the plane discovery a few years ago. sootoday.com

Here is also the declassified report of the incident. Report

[edit on 26/5/08 by Rhain]



posted on May, 26 2008 @ 08:48 AM
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Thanks for bringing this story back, I remember reading about it a few years back. I checked www.americanchronicle.com... and www.ufocasebook.com... after a simple google search and the story,regarding the discovery, would seem either a hoax or ( dare i say ) a Canadian Government cover-up!? A very well presented post GUNSINWAR, lets hope someone can dig up the latest on the Great Lakes Dive Company.



posted on May, 26 2008 @ 09:29 AM
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Hiyah Guns!

Amazing report you put together here...the photos of the disc shaped object with the furrows/plow track leading to it is pretty amazing.

I have never heard of this incident, so it's great when these old unsolved UFO stories are brought up again!

I wondered the same thing as another poster...can the size of the jet be used to judge the size of the other object?

I'm surprised there's been no recovery effort, at least for the jet. The conditions must be formidable or something.

Great story and presentation as usual!
I love waking up to a good juicy
UFO story

Edit to add...

I just went to the ufocasebook.com site to read about their update...wow that makes it an even juicier mystery...Here's a statement by the owner of the Dive organization:


“Threats were made regarding the salvage of the object, essentially ‘tell us where it's at or else...’ The individuals represented themselves as producers for the Discovery Channel. We made a few calls, found out the group was fraudulent and told them we no longer were interested in any future dealings with them...that's when the threats started. As a security precaution we changed all phone numbers associated with GLDC and have not included any company or personal information (like background info on the team) on any interviews. Until this situation (returning to the object) is resolved we will not be providing any further information on the project or the team.”


www.ufocasebook.com...

He seemed reluctant to discuss his incorporated business status, said he was switching to an LLC...I for one know what a pain in the buttski that is, especially if you try to fill out the forms yourself.

Anyway the $1 Million dollar question is...is it a hoax and the man is just trying to hide the fact that it is, or was he really threatened as he said, and thereby wanting to dissociate himself from harm from the so-called agency that threatened him?

[edit on 26-5-2008 by LateApexer313]



posted on May, 26 2008 @ 11:20 AM
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Unfortunately the reporting of the discovery of the F-89 is almost certainly a complete and utter HOAX. Noone really knows anything about the mysterious Adam Jimenez, (if that is his real name). There is no evidence to support the existence of the Great Lakes Dive Company. The images are almost certainly fakes, and could easily be produced by a 12 year old using Photoshop. The original notice of the "discovery" was produced as a quote from an AP news story that was sent in an email to Francis Ridge of NICAP. The original quoted AP story turned out to be a HOAX so that tells you something right there.

The mystery of the missing F-89 is still an unsolved mystery. However, contrary to the claims of some UFO investigators, there was an RCAF C-47 flying over the Lake Superior. But the USAF did apparently lie when it claimed the purpose of the intercept was to confirm the identity of this plane as the pilot of the plane states emphatically that the plane was never flying off course as the USAF claimed. Also note the location the F-89 disappeared was over Canadian waters quite some distance north of the C-47 flight path as described by the pilot.




Note that there is nothing to support the idea that the UFO crashed into the lake. After the F-89 merged with the bogie on radar, the bogie continued on its tragectory. The altitude of both F-89 and bogie were tracked on radar. Neither was observed to crash into the lake (by observations on altitude radar) although the Air Force did conclude that the F-89 must have crashed into the lake shortly after its return merged with the bogie.

Unlike the 2006 hoax discovery claims, it is possible that real parts of the F-89 were discovered near the shore of Lake Superior in 1968. The government never released the identity of the military jet parts found and the Canadian government says they have no record of the discovery.



There is much more about this on the UFOBC website:
Kinross Incident



posted on May, 26 2008 @ 11:34 AM
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You can bet any wreckage of anything...be it sensitive military equipment or an exotic craft from another world/dimension....would have been fully and quickly recovered, destroyed or buried.... so to answer the question of the OP....


NOT BLOODY LIKELY...


BTW star and flag...very well authored post GOOD JOB!




[edit on 5/26/2008 by 1nL1ghtened]



posted on May, 26 2008 @ 12:40 PM
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Good Day GUNSINWAR,

The "Great Lake Dive Company" Hoax, to put it mildly was done in bad taste and at the expense of the family of the lost service men!

Personally, I feel the individual who called himself "Adam Jimenez" should be punished to the full extent of the law, if in fact there are any on the books in regards to the anguish he caused the family, as well as the falsehoods he published in regards to military property, and military personnel.

Obviously a "civil suit" can be brought against this character.

The so-called Jimenez was investigated throughly (by myself and many others including MUFON), as was the non-existent GLDC. The perp, when realizing the walls were falling in around him quickly folded up shop and disappeared.

At present he thinks he got away with this charade, but little does he know . . .

Cheers,
Frank



posted on May, 26 2008 @ 12:51 PM
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reply to post by Frank Warren
 


Hiyah Frank...

What a horrible jerk, I am glad you and MUFON got to the bottom of the hoax. And like you said...I hope he gets what he deserves, it would be a shame if he was allowed to get away with this cruel deed and remain unscathed legally or financially.

1nL1ghtened: I was thinking the same thing. All evidence would have long since been pulled from the lake I would imagine.



posted on May, 26 2008 @ 01:07 PM
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Hi LA313,


Originally posted by LateApexer313
reply to post by Frank Warren
 


Hiyah Frank...

What a horrible jerk, I am glad you and MUFON got to the bottom of the hoax. And like you said...I hope he gets what he deserves, it would be a shame if he was allowed to get away with this cruel deed and remain unscathed legally or financially.

1nL1ghtened: I was thinking the same thing. All evidence would have long since been pulled from the lake I would imagine.


This clown took his hoax to the highest levels; he did radio shows, published photographs, provided false background information etc.,etc. Apparently all done without a thought about the families who have no closure.

On a positive note, this was a fine example of "separating the wheat from the chaff." This guy and his charade were expeditiously investigated and exposed for the impostor he was and the hornswaggle he exuded.

Cheers,
Frank



posted on May, 26 2008 @ 02:21 PM
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Thanks Frank for your comments. From my personal conversations with Moncla family members, I think they were waiting for confirmation of the reports before rushing to conclusions. However, they have for certain always felt that they were not given the full story by the USAF. As an example, here is a letter written by the pilot Eugene Moncla's mother Yvonne to UFO investigator Donald Keyhoe:



Donald Keyhoe also received two letters from J.D. Koctar, a Texas attorney who pilot Gene Moncla met in Waco, Texas when he was doing his basic pilot training at Connally Air Force Base. It was J.D. Koctar who introduced Gene Moncla to his future wife, Bobbie, who was JD's sister-in-law.





As can be seen from these letters, the pilot's family and friends never felt they were given a proper explanation by the USAF in this matter and it appears the USAF itself had difficulties trying to explain the incident. The initial explanation to Moncla's widow was provided by Lt. Col. Harry Shoup who was the base commander at Truax Field in Madison, Wisconsin at the time of the incident. His explanation was his personal theory based on the limited information he was provided from other USAF officials at Kinross. He likely was completely unaware that the incident was probably a UFO encounter as air force regulations prevented those involved at radar stations from reporting this information to members of the squadron on temporary assignment in Kinross Michigan or to the home base in Madison, Wisconsin.



posted on May, 26 2008 @ 03:02 PM
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Very good article, The group or company has since been threatened severly... It is clear there is an object down there... What it is exactly I do not think we will ever know.



posted on May, 26 2008 @ 03:02 PM
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Very good article, The group or company has since been threatened severly... It is clear there is an object down there... What it is exactly I do not think we will ever know.



posted on May, 26 2008 @ 03:38 PM
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Originally posted by thefreepatriot
Very good article, The group or company has since been threatened severly... It is clear there is an object down there... What it is exactly I do not think we will ever know.


Huh? If you read through the links you will discover the "dive company" is non-existent and never existed or set foot in Lake Superior. It is a hoax. The reason they closed their website is because the hoaxer was challenged to provide some evidence to back up his story - which he never did. I hope you aren't saying that the crude photoshop images are evidence. If you followed the original story as it evolved on the Internet, you would know that the story went from suspicious to ridiculous. Originally it was claimed the images were side scan sonar. Then they made the claim they jerry-rigged a fish finder that they dropped down about 800 feet plus to take the "sonar photos" of the "UFO" as the object was emitting radiation. They mysterious Adam Jimenez claimed they had photographs of the aircraft taken from an ROV although these were never produced.

Anyone who was familiar with the Kinross Incident would know the idea that this was a UFO crash conflicts with all accounts that the bogie continued on its coarse heading after the F-89 merged with it on radar.

There is no company to be threatened. Its all a hoax until any evidence is produced which shows the contrary. It is of course possible that the F-89 does lie on the bottom of Lake Superior. The location it disappeared from radar is known. There is no evidence anyone has ever bothered to check out this location with a side-scan sonar and there is certainly no evidence to suggest the USAF or some "shadow government organization" covered up the hoax and themselves went rushing out to the middle of Lake Superior to recover the mythical "crashed UFO".

There was no "UFO crash", except in the hoax story.



posted on May, 26 2008 @ 04:08 PM
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Good Day "G"


Originally posted by bluestreak53
Thanks Frank for your comments. From my personal conversations with Moncla family members, I think they were waiting for confirmation of the reports before rushing to conclusions. However, they have for certain always felt that they were not given the full story by the USAF. As an example, here is a letter written by the pilot Eugene Moncla's mother Yvonne to UFO investigator Donald Keyhoe:


I'm glad to hear that the family was not too disrupted by the perp's "fun 'n' games." Sadly there seems to be a pattern by the military in the handling of UFO related incidents where a death is involved, e.g., Mantell, Brown and Davidson etc. In talking to family members of Davidson's, his mother believed the "UFOs had something to do with her son's death" up until the day she passed.

Your work on Kinross by the way is exemplary, and much appreciated by those of us who pay attention!

On the flip-side I hate to see band-width wasted on the likes of the impostor Jimenez and his flimflam; however, I realize some have come to the table late, and are not aware of his deceptions.

Keep up the good work . . .

Cheers,
Frank



posted on May, 26 2008 @ 04:38 PM
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Originally posted by Frank Warren
Good Day "G"
I'm glad to hear that the family was not too disrupted by the perp's "fun 'n' games." Sadly there seems to be a pattern by the military in the handling of UFO related incidents where a death is involved, e.g., Mantell, Brown and Davidson etc. In talking to family members of Davidson's, his mother believed the "UFOs had something to do with her son's death" up until the day she passed.


With regards to the GLDC hoax, I wish I had myself trusted my initial suspicions that the whole thing looked very questionable. I did feel I should tell one of Moncla's nephews and his daughter as I had told them I would tell them if there were any new developments. I did caution them that the claims of the discovery of the F-89 had to be confirmed as evidence was minimal at that point (back in early September 2006).

I was wondering what incident involved Davidson?

I did recently obtain the USAF accident report for the mysterious crash from Otis Air Force Base where pilot Lt. Suggs survived but the radar operator disappeared with the plane and neither were ever found. The report is wierd because it makes no mention of the wreck that should have been in shallow water in Buzzards Bay. This incident occured just a few weeks before Moncla and Wilson disappeared.

I also recently obtained the USAF accident report for the crash which killed Kinross F-89 pilot Lt. Moncla's friend and neighbour, Lt. John Schmidt on the same day Moncla and Wilson went missing. (Note: That is the news article at the top of this thread which I originally compiled and posted to the UFOBC website). One thing that is strange about the report is that it includes some cockpit conversation fragments that were apparently broadcast unintentionally from by Schmidt and/or Collins before their F-89 crashed. This is similar to the radio transmission that Lt. Mingenbach heard from Lt. Moncla 40 minutes after his F-89 disappeared from radar.

Thanks Frank to you and others such as James Carrion of MUFON who diligently investigated the GLDC hoax.



posted on May, 26 2008 @ 05:04 PM
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This was a while ago, but I do remember reading about this somewhere. I spent quite a bit of time on it. The GLDC did exist, I visited there website and even obtained some contact information for the company. I remember attempting to show a couple friends what I had found and the website was gone. There wasnt a trace left anywhere on the internet that I could find. Call it a hoax or whatever you want but I was reading about this when it all went down. It was a real company and on the GLDC website they actually talked about this find. There was a bit of confusion as to what country had rights to it if I remember correctly. Wow, cant believe I am hearing about this now when its been so long. It was definitely covered up.





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