Cuba Denounces new and cowardly action by the U.S. government

reply to post by velvet

Originally posted by velvet


Also just because I now live in the USA, does not mean I don't appreciate what this country has given me. The number one thing that pisses me off about this country is the people who are running it and trying to ruin it.

[edit on 18-5-2008 by velvet]

Well, that's the same thing that pisses us of about Cuba - the people who are ruining it. And that means the Castros and the other commies.

Many of these postings are typical of what I have come to expect when a lot of them derive their sense of history from Hollywood.

Apparently Cuba has forgotten John F. Kennedy.

I have personally visited Cuba 3 Times. Twice as a civilian, starting in 1974. Once to install medical equipment in an infirmary at Gitmo.

Practically 100% of the average citizens I spoke to would love to join the USA either by migrating if they could bring all of their family; or by Cuba joining the USA as a state.

The majority I spoke to live in daily debilitating poverty based on US standards. They are also very loyal to Cuba and their history but long for leadership that promotes honest growth and stability with equality for individual achievement. Sounds very much what I long for. I feel very fortunate to have made several Cuban friends in Cuba and in other countries. They do not seem very different from people I have met anywhere else in North or South America.

The current media sabre rattling from Cuba strikes me as more machismo posturing while seeking foreign aid and a relaxing of trade embargoes.

They might do better by declaring war, firing a couple of shots, surrendering, and then demand infrastructure and economic rebuilding from the conquering victor.

Originally posted by kerontehe
...The majority I spoke to live in daily debilitating poverty based on US standards. They are also very loyal to Cuba and their history but long for leadership that promotes honest growth and stability with equality for individual achievement. Sounds very much what I long for. I feel very fortunate to have made several Cuban friends in Cuba and in other countries. They do not seem very different from people I have met anywhere else in North or South America.

I'm not sure I've understood your stance. I think your drawing parrallels between Cuba and the US to demonstrate that although financially Cuban's are poorer than US citizens and have less access to mod-cons both nations are similarly lead - neither government "..promotes honest growth and stability with equality for individual achievement."

I've never been to Cuba thus my knowledge is second and third hand. However, I thought that the new Castro was working toward de-restricting the lives of Cubans and working toward a more open and accessible nation. This is in contrast to both the US and Britain which now tend toward restricting people's lives, removing wealth from the people and limiting national access and egress.

The current media sabre rattling from Cuba strikes me as more machismo posturing while seeking foreign aid and a relaxing of trade embargoes.

I agree here - it's hard to believe that Cuba has to throw a wobbly in order to receive foreign aid and to be able to freely participate in global trade. Where's the equality and right to live freely without intimidation and fear of reprisal for being different. We keep harking on about it but I don't see it in action (maybe we substitute the actions of our mouths for the actions involved in the doing).

Here are are few questions to anyone to ponder: excluding Western mod-cons, in Cuba,

What's the real quality of life for Cubans?
How happy are they compared to other Westerners?
Do they have access to real education?
Do they have proper health-care?
How long do they live?
What's the infant mortality rate?
How many of them are currently registered as suffering depression?
How are their mentally ill treated?
What does equality mean there ? Recently, there was a Cuban state sponsored march/festival against homophobia.
How much corruption is there at local government/leadership level? In the U.K, there is a lot (try getting planning permission for property development)
Do Cuban's have access to legal assistance?
In daily life, for what do Cuban's have to pay? For what do they not have to pay?

A note for anyone who answers: anyone who willfully lies or manipulates the truth without intention to self-correction for the purpose of "winning" an argument or debate loses their argument by default. It's fine to twist and lie to make a point but not to prove a point and to maliciously, deliberately mis-inform.

I think that had Cuba not been restricted in participation with the global community then perhaps the Cuban people would be less poor financially. I could be wrong but it will take a Cuban living in Cuba to point out my errors.

In regards to the questions posed concerning Cuban people's health and well-being, these question could be answered if we could visit Cuba more freely. Cuba has some very innovative ideas with respect to the conservation of non-renewable energy. I like the 'urban agriculture' idea. Where citizens can utilize urban green-spaces to plant small crops. The plan itself is similar to community gardens except that it is implemented on a larger scale.
Cuba has one of the highest doctor to resident ratios, though in reality a Cuban worker could make more money working at a co-op farm. When Russia (Soviet Union) cut of fuel supplies the price for produce shot up exponetially, due to the cost per unit to transport these items. So, Cuba needed to find a silution, and fast! So with large estates now being turned over to the government, Castro and friends passed legislation to make it possible to plant a crop on any 'open' plot.
Regarding the new 'fees' imposed on people who visit Cuba, I think it is due in-part to multiple factors. Firstly, I believe economic factors are of primary concern. When a citizen of country (X) spends his/her salary in country (Y), country (Y) has, in a sense, taken that money out of country (X)'s economy. This is a major issue for any government. Secondly, I belive that Cuba is now, and has been for a while, more of an icon than actual political enemy. Cuba is an example of just one country that has begun it's road to socio/economic freedom. The same road both Canada and the United States of America had to travel not so long ago. And this act of emancipation brings a loss of economic and political control by those in positions of power. When that control is lost one way of re-establishing it is to impose blocades, terrifs, taxes and so forth. This has happened to many countries in South-America, and will continue to happen as more peoples become disillusioned by corporate influence on their way of life.
I believe corporate success depends on formulaic (sp?) economic plans, that do not effectively calculate social variables. Meaning; the formula that brought corporate success to country (X) might not be as affective in country (Y). Cuba is an example of an uncalculated social variable with-in the foreign 'business plan' used to profit from Cuba itself.

*It must be noted that Cuba's agricultural export is mostly sugar, but a large quantity and of high quality.*

Many of these embargos that were placed on Cuba were used to show other nations of the consequence(s) of any typ of social revolution. Ofcourse, this is my oppinion and we have all swayed from the OP a bit, but discussion about Cuba is hard to come by in my neck of the woods.

"I believe time and luck are the two most powerful factors in the world, and these factors are not easily calculated by heartless corporations. We will always overcome oppression, sometimes with a lesser form of oppression, but always working towards some idea of freedom."

-Cuauhtemoc

Originally posted by WhatTheory
Cuba is stll a communist country and should be treated as such.
Nuff said.

This is the Cuba of today :

Communism is not the same everywhere. You cannot compare Cuba with North Korea or USSR

reply to post by jsobecky



Ahh you see what pisses the people of the US off at the Cuban regime are not the same reasons that the Gov, and US corporations are pissed. It's all about the money...I should invite my mother to this site.(Don't know if she'll bother). She may be able to help with this conversation.

Originally posted by Ownification
I never seem to agree with any of your comments lol, once again this comment is very ummm how can I say this without hurting your feelings, 'idiotic' is good enough. Just because Cuba embrace communism as their way of lifestyle doesn't give you the permission to harbour terrorists against them.

Yes it does.
How can I say this without hurting your feelings, 'naive' is good enough.
Have you ever heard of the Cuban Missle Crisis? I'm sure you have, so I have every right to be weary of Cuba and not to trust them. What you don't realize is that the governments of communist countries consider Capitalism their enemy and want to destroy any country that supports it.
Plus, communist run countries oppress their people severly and this is just the opposite of what America represents. Almost all citizens who live in these commy countries wish there government was more democratic. People by nature want to be free.

If a group of people decide to live their lives how ever they wish they have the right to do so, you shouldn't force them to live your way of lifestyle. It's their decision not yours.

Again, naive.
People of communist countries cannot decide anything. What part of the government controls everything don't you understand. Like I said, most of the people who live in these countries wish their governments were not so oppressive. If you don't think people should be forced to live a certain way, then why are you supporting communism which does just that.
Don't you understand communism is a government run dictatorship and the people must obey and they have no choice. Come on man, start thinking for yourself instead of being brainwashed by the liberal media.

reply to post by pai mei



What American media and government has ignored for so long is the progress in Cuba. On both sides of the Isle. And since very few people have access to Cuba the rumors will fly...You know, Cuba has also become a technological society over the years. And is in the heights of innovation. If the American market were fairly opened up to Cuba and vice versa, then we could have some of the best educated minds on Earth contributing to our economy. As well as producing concepts and products that could be environmentally beneficial to everyone. Remember folks, Cuba has a 98 percent literacy rate, and everyone goes to a University.

reply to post by WhatTheory



Fidel kicked the Soviets out(contrary to popular belief) after they figured out they they were using Cuba as a pawn in their little chess game with the US. That's why there was NO Soviet involvement in Cuba beyond 1964 or so. That's why Cuba needs to be approached differently, They didn't want ANYONE exploiting them so they said "F-You' to both sides. Now what? It's been 50 years and no toppling of the regime has taken place by the Embargo(as American leadership said it would). So what do we do? How much time needs to pass before we decide to open a dialog with Cuba and see if we can get a positive ball rolling?

Originally posted by projectvxn
Fidel kicked the Soviets out(contrary to popular belief) after they figured out they they were using Cuba as a pawn in their little chess game with the US. That's why there was NO Soviet involvement in Cuba beyond 1964 or so. That's why Cuba needs to be approached differently

Sorry, but that is just wrong. Are you purposefully revising history?
Castro did not kick out the Soviets. The soviets left only after the U.S. used the naval blockade and gave them an altimatum.

Your comment that Castro had no idea that the soviets invaded their country and had set-up bases and missiles is just proposterous. This must be the most ludicrous statement I have heard in a long time. Come on, you know better than this. Why are you purposefully trying to distort history?

Originally posted by WhatTheory

Originally posted by projectvxn
Fidel kicked the Soviets out(contrary to popular belief) after they figured out they they were using Cuba as a pawn in their little chess game with the US. That's why there was NO Soviet involvement in Cuba beyond 1964 or so. That's why Cuba needs to be approached differently

Sorry, but that is just wrong. Are you purposefully revising history?
Castro did not kick out the Soviets. The soviets left only after the U.S. used the naval blockade and gave them an altimatum.

Your comment that Castro had no idea that the soviets invaded their country and had set-up bases and missiles is just proposterous. This must be the most ludicrous statement I have heard in a long time. Come on, you know better than this. Why are you purposefully trying to distort history?

I never said that. After the Missile Crisis the Soviet Union wanted to remain in Cuba for political reasons. Fidel said no because he didn't want to be part of Soviet-American squabbling. This is actual fact. The Soviets, as a sort of punishment, decided to halt weapons sales to the Cubans. That's when Cuba and China became friends.

reply to post by WhatTheory


China is stlll a communist country and should be treated as such.
Nuff said.

Originally posted by rancelot
China is stlll a communist country and should be treated as such.

I agree, so I don't see your point.
I don't agree with the current state of relations with China.

To the last two posters,

I appreciate the ATS points your posts have just netted me but please stay on topic as stated in my opening post - Cuba and Cuba's relations with the USA. China isn't Cuba, nor is it the USA and as such China being a communist nation has no bearing on this thread.

Thank-you.

Plus there has been changes. They're starting to give the people in Cuba technology like computers and cellphones. It might be slow progress but Cuba is getting their. I think Cuba can become independent, they don't need the USA.

Originally posted by WhatTheory
Yes it does.
How can I say this without hurting your feelings, 'naive' is good enough.
Have you ever heard of the Cuban Missle Crisis?

Soooo now it's the missile crisis that worries you ummm I guess them choosing the communist lifestyle is not good enough??

Originally posted by WhatTheory
What you don't realize is that the governments of communist countries consider Capitalism their enemy and want to destroy any country that supports it.

umm making such claims, the least you could do is bring me some proof. If I make the claim that America sees all communist states as their enemy and want to destroy or take them down, I would bring you proof. My proof would be Afghanistan, and how America supported terrorists just to get rid of Communism in that country.

Originally posted by WhatTheory
Plus, communist run countries oppress their people severly and this is just the opposite of what America represents. Almost all citizens who live in these commy countries wish there government was more democratic. People by nature want to be free.

Do you think that the Cuban people are sooooooo stupid that they don't even have the brain to decide that ahhh it's time to stand up against this govenment which according to you they hate sooooo, sooo much?? You got a good imagination. The only people who are complaining in Cuba are the rich folks because they want more profit, you get what I'm saying. If the people saw anything wrong with their government they would stand up just like the ol Iraqi's did against Saddam. Remember?? And while the Iraqi's were fighting Saddam, America was pilling more weapons in to the hands of Saddam and now we see the out-come.

You need to go to this link and read about Cuba's Domestic politics, it will help you alot in judging them. Anyways their politics is no different than the American one, I mean come on, you elect an individual and that individual will dictate you for four year, are you seriousely telling me that your dictatorship is better than the Cuban one lol. fire breathing terrorists hahaa...

Like it or no, right or wrong, you have to give Castro credit for outlasting how many presidents? 50 years worth anyway. And never an inkling of a Cuban counter-revolution in all those years, even with the US financing everything. He must have been doing something right in order to retain the popular support he enjoys to this day. Of course, the disenfranchised landowners are going to be upset at losing their wealth. That's natural. But, what are you going to do? I do believe these formerly wealthy people are willing to starve their fellow Cubans, out of spite or revenge, a human thing to do.

A bit off-topic but I'd like to address the poster who said that Cubans built Miami. It was entirely done with coc aine money and mostly by Colombians. While there were some Cuban criminal types involved, those that came over when Castro emptied his jails into Florida (ala Scarface), they were generally small fish in big Colombian pond. The fact is everyone was getting it off of the Colombians. Now, that's not to say that there weren't many honest hardworking Cubans settling there, but Miami is what it is today because of drug money.
When the rest of the US was going through a recession in the 70s, and early 80s, Miami was prosperous, catering to the drug kingpins. There were luxury car dealerships and a bank on every corner. When the war on drugs took off in the mid 80s, these businesses dried up, but where did all the cash go? It was reinvested legally by the car dealers, jewelry store owners, real estate agents, etc. that got rich by taking the cash from the kingpins. For more info check out the documentary Cocaine Cowboys. A bit low budget but still interesting.

Originally posted by Ownification
Soooo now it's the missile crisis that worries you

No, that is one reason why they cannot be trusted.

I guess them choosing the communist lifestyle is not good enough??

Umm....they did not choose anything. That lifestyle as you say was forced upon them. Why do you think Cubans risk their lives trying to get to the U.S.?

Do you think that the Cuban people are sooooooo stupid that they don't even have the brain to decide that ahhh it's time to stand up against this govenment which according to you they hate sooooo, sooo much?? You got a good imagination.

Boy, you just don't get it.
This has nothing to do with how smart they are. They cannot stand up to their government because they would be killed. Castro ruled with a iron fist. Again, why do you think so many fled Cuba at great risk to their lives in order to escape the tyranny and reach U.S. shores?

Originally posted by WhatTheory
Why do you think Cubans risk their lives trying to get to the U.S.?
....
Again, why do you think so many fled Cuba at great risk to their lives in order to escape the tyranny and reach U.S. shores?

I hate seeing this argument because it only takes 10 seconds of rational examination to find its critical flaw. Has it ever occurred to you that the people of Cuba may be just as oppressed as the people of Mexico who also flee their country to come to America? The people of both countries face economic hardships that push some to search for opportunity in a different country though for slightly different reasons.

Mexico is capitalism incarnate. It has thousands of American owned factories paying low wages to poorly educated people who receive very little service for the income and sales taxes they pay.

Cuba is socialism under 50 years of constant war. Cuba is a socialist dictatorship with free education and medical care with an economy that is strangled from decades of embargo.

The people fleeing these countries are fleeing hardships not ideologies or cartoon-like evil leaders. They are fleeing hardship inflicted upon them because they don't live in America. The people fleeing those countries are the citizens who decided that the adage, "If you can't beat them join them," was good enough for them.

50 years of economic warfare on Cuba and in Mexico's case, several centuries of economic looting from America and several European countries have all taken their toll on the people of those countries and not some illusionary evil inherent in complex political and economic systems that 99% of Americans have been mislead in their understandings of.

Jon

Originally posted by Voxel
I hate seeing this argument because it only takes 10 seconds of rational examination to find its critical flaw. Has it ever occurred to you that the people of Cuba may be just as oppressed as the people of Mexico

The people fleeing these countries are fleeing hardships not ideologies

Umm.....the ideology is causing the hardships. It's the same difference.