Three words people don't seem to like very much:

Originally posted by jbondo
I crave knowledge and hope I never stop learning. Seems the people with the most wisdom (Senior Citizens) are usually the ones we listen to least. I am just amazed at how America takes their old and hide them away in a place where we can keep them out of sight and out of mind. What a shame.

Well, some people remember the way the "senior citizens" slavishly accepted any form of government that came by. Other people remember the way these "senior citizens" easily gave up on their Jewish neighbours in wwII in Europe.
Still others remember the eugenicist ideals that a lot of these "senior citizens" adhered to.
Also a lot of the "senior citizens" have a distinctly racist worldview.
And lots of the "senior citizens" were so unthinking to fully accept the christian or other nonsensical religious dogma AND to aggressively force this idea upon their children.
Dont get me wrong, I am NOT against senior citizens per se and I wouldnt ever put my mother in a old-people's home, but I believe it is obvious that the way the world has become is a direct result of the unwillingness of our predecessors to think for themselves or act against gross injustice.
These were the people who fully accepted the forceful milk-lobby here in holland who gave us the untrue adagio "three glasses of milk a day" because they overproduced.
These were the people who forced work-ethics upon their children. Who did not oppose segregation, who allowed a Ku Klux Klan.
And dammit, these were the people who started the wars for oil. Who liked wearing uniforms. Who allowed their kids to be raped by their priests, because they wanted to believe in a fantastic book of lies. Who aggressively forced their children into believing nonsense and to stop rational thinking, having to accept blatant lies from guys in dresses who adore a male god...
These were the people who, rather than accept their children's ideas, pushed them into obeying the power structures that have been proven to be against, rather than for the people.

No, there is not much wisdom in the elderly, these days. More likely they will condemn what they themselves have set in motion years ago.
When a culture is based upon money-production and entertainment, thru the sheepish acceptance of the ones before, the time has come for change. On a global scale.
This time we will have to try come up with a more dynamic set of ideals. No more fascist ideals, no more forced labour, no more politics of exclusion and exploitation. No more oil and fossil fuels to generate a tiny bit of energy that can be wasted by useless industries that have been set-up to suppress people, to keep them docile.
No, the docility (if that is the word) of our predecessors was NOT positive for anything but their slavers.

I am aware that this has become a rant, but I just had to react.
Wisdom is not in years, wisdom is in intelligent use of information, combined with humaneness (or is that humanity?).
Forcing dogma on kids is oppression, brainwashing.
What I see here and everywhere is that a lot of people prefer to just echo the knowledgable tone of our elders and forget to imply knowledge or to learn more than old knowledge.
Fercryingoutloud, a culture sucks if it doesnt grow. And that our western culture isnt growing is undeniable. Or do we think that an empty society of brainless entertainmentjunkies is 'the zhit'?
I dont know, man!

"I don't know" is often the wisest and most truthful answer can give. The utterance of those words is the first step out of ignorance. This is why my favorite archetype in the Tarot is The Fool. Being a woman, my insight into that and the High Priestess is that one cannot be the High Priestess without being embracing that fact that one is also The Fool.

I know since I am an experiencer with Alien life forms as most call them I couldn't believe that people on the whole hadn't a clue what is going on.

When I told my best friend years ago about me she llistened and said it's hard for her to imagine because she has never experienced anything at all but she told me that without a doubt she believed me because she has known me for decades and I have never lied to her and she was right about that.

She woke me that there are people that don't have a clue and I realized I had to understand that and be open minded about denial the same as she was open minded to Alien existance.

I will be honest and say it is hard for me even now (but I try hard to understand)

All I can say is the Universe is full of life, and what we need to exist many of them do not.

Knowing what is out there to me is not unique it is just the way it is no big deal to me. One thing I have learned is live for now and enjoy and do the best you can do now. This Planet called Earth is a gift, treasure it it's priceless.

Maybe everyone needs to just take that extra few minutes they have in there busy lives to sit and think about life and friendship.

Good thread a star and flag from me.

I love this thread. There is one time when you can be attacked for an "I don't know" response, though. That is, when you develop a position, are confronted with damning evidence, and refuse to reconsider. That is, essentially, making yourself intellectually immune and ignoring other arguments. "I don't know" in response to a question is only one step in intellectual honesty; you have to make it apply to your entire system of beliefs, which should be constantly evolving.

reply to post by Johnmike


I agree, with one exception: the existential possibility that I can't necessarily trust our senses to be honest with us about said evidence. IN general though, I tend to at least take evidence I'm confronted with and assimilate it into my general view. For instance, if I thought the sky was red, and everyone in the world presented me with evidence that it was in fact blue, I would accept that it was probably blue. I would leave open the possibility, however, that they were incorrect, too. (Any scientist after all will readily admit that 100% certainties are difficult if not impossible to arrive at.)

That's why I prefer to say that while I don't know _________, I do believe (or tend to believe) __________.

I try to place things I say in the proper context by prefacing them with statements such as, "Assuming my senses aren't lying to me," or, "Assuming the laws of physics are what everyone says they are," etc. lol

I am not disagreeing with any of the points made by the OP but I would like to share an opinion that I feel has yet to be expressed on this thread.

I personally loathe hearing "I don't know," not because the speaker is thinking, but more that they are NOT thinking in many cases. I hear "I don't know" most often employed by pseudo skeptics who would rather leave the conversation at a stand still than admit any credibility exists in an opposing argument. Don't get me wrong, I'm not obsessed with vindication or being right. It's just really annoying and to me, somewhat transparent, when a person says "I don't know" then mysteriously wishes to discontinue a conversation. It just doesn't come across as an indicator that you are thinking about what I say. It comes across as an indicator that you are thinking about how to refute what I just said.

We ARE ignorant. But metaphysical progress is NOT aided by people simply admitting to it. Too many people get hung up over entry level philosophical concepts like "everything is subjective" and seem to lose sight of the fact that progress is inherently dependent on our decisiveness (not lack there of) as thinkers. Bias is derived from experience and its there for a reason. The reason: TRUTH EXISTS. And most people I talk to say "I don't know" as a means to pretend it doesn't.

Again, we ARE ignorant. But we also have our bias and sadly, many self-proclaimed "thinkers" would rather blurt out "I don't know" than admit to this.

Good post, i like to think i'm pretty informative when it comes to certain issues, but when it comes to others i haven't the fogiest clue, and yea i was one of those people who thought that he knew a ton, which in a way i guess is true with some topics but when my ignorance is applied as wisdom to the topics i don't know much about we all know that can cause damage.



As human beings we all make mistakes if someone tells you other wise there lying, the best bet i think is to sit back and learn but also give advice on topics you think you understand and if you didn't be man enough to admit your mistakes, yea i know hard for some of us even me but i'm learning, good read.

reply to post by Aeternus


What you say seems true to me and I would tend to agree with it.

At the same time, though, one could respond to the statement that, "Truth exists," with, "There may be truth, and I personally believe that there is truth, but I do not yet personally know that there is truth." One may not agree with that statement, but I can hardly fault anyone for holding it as a point of view if they themselves haven't yet discovered what they would term truth.

As you say, we have certain forms of bias for reasons (to discern between the probable and improbable based on known information among them) it would seem, but it's a bit of a paradox, because no matter what I learn there will always be the possibility, however seemingly small, that my learned bias is incorrect.



[edit on 5/18/2008 by AceWombat04]

reply to post by dervishmadwhirler


I'm sorry you feel that way. I owe my elders a great deal and I was certainly able to discern between legitimate teaching and nonsense.

Furthermore, I am a Christian and discovered it on my own. My parents did make us go to church as children but also gave us the option of making up our own minds once we hit 12 yrs of age. I left but came back on my own terms in my late 20's.

I think you misinterpret what learning means. To just throw all elderly (accept your mother ironically) into one group is short sighted IMO.

My apologies to the OP for getting of course there.

reply to post by AceWombat04

I'm glad we understand each other Yeah I would have no qualms if someone dropped that reason on me... the only problem being that no one has. Maybe people just need to learn to communicate or perhaps even learn to speak English
Personally I just tend not to believe people that say "I don't know" because when I call them on it and assert that they must have SOME opinion they become hostile (usually but not all the time). Good ol human condition.

[edit on 30-5-2008 by Aeternus]

Originally posted by seenitall
I can think of 3 words people like even less, but they can't be repeated on this forum. =)

If the middle word is my, then I can assure you that here are many who very much enjoy hearing those words. And of course the best answer is the name of one of my favorite bands. YES