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Why books were left out of the bible?

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posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 09:22 AM
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Originally posted by ScienceDada
Protestant Christian faith claims to rest on the scriptures alone, defined by the 66 book Protestant Canon, as the definition of the Christian Faith. The problem with this is 2-fold:

1. What comprises the scriptures was not clearly defined for a minimum of 300 years and what were eventually considered non-canonical writings were often quoted in similar ways as the canonical writings


So? The assumption here is that that non-canonical writings in some way negate the canonical writings...or am I reading this wrong?


Originally posted by ScienceDada
2. The identification of which writings were considered Holy scriptures was based on the Tradition of the Church, according to councils in the 300's C.E., more than 250 years after they were written

Thus, to claim to be "scriptural" and reject Tradition is circular logic, since it was the Tradition that identified the scriptures.


Even in a previous post of yours, we'd both identified and agreed upon (for the most part) the criteria for the canon...and no, it was not tradition that defined scripture.

Scripture is the foundation, as you've put it Sola Scriptura (which to me is a bit of a misnomer anyway). The 'tradition' that comes from it is merely "following scripture".


Originally posted by ScienceDada
The choice of canonicity was not a court matter, and the Church is not a court.


Paul tells us that the church is to be serving the role of The Court, and that we should not be seeking 'justice' (which oft is masked as vengence) outside of it. So yes, it is the court on earth, whereas God being the . overseer.


Originally posted by ScienceDada
Why is it so hard for many to admit that Sola Scriptura is a tradition that is not historical?


On 'circular logic' how can one say "Scripture Alone" when scripture tells us that the purpose of the faith is to have a personal relationship with God? This is why it is a misnomer. What did Christ say about the written law? Misnomer yet again.


Originally posted by ScienceDada
When you read the writings of the early Christians, it becomes quite apparent that they argued as much, if not more, from the Tradition of the Church than they did from canonical scriptures.


Yes, which is exactly why we really need not argue about it again. All we have to do is understand their positions and validate what is correct and why.

[edit on 10-9-2008 by saint4God]




posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 10:05 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God

What comprises the scriptures was not clearly defined for a minimum of 300 years and what were eventually considered non-canonical writings were often quoted in similar ways as the canonical writings

So? The assumption here is that that non-canonical writings in some way negate the canonical writings...or am I reading this wrong?

No negation of canonical writings is involved---and this is a biased statement. Actually, quite the opposite: the Early Christian writings show how the scriptures were interpreted, either clarifying ambiguities, filling in gaps, or interpreting seeming contradictions. What the non-Canonical writings do is guide how scripture is to be interpreted. And what they demonstrate is that Sola Scriptura is just a fancy way of justifying interpretation of the scriptures in ways that they were not intended to be interpreted, nor is there a precedent before certain men decided it was a good idea. This is why the Apostle wrote hold to the Tradition which was handed down by word or by epistle, because both are important.

Most people recognize that there are many teachings of men that are not evidenced in the scriptures. Some of these that are high profile are teachings on sexual relationships (adultery/fornication/abuse), ownership of property and wealth, the role of faith in the Christian life, warfare, contraception/abortion, women's roles, idols, lying, greed/money, drug use/abuse, etc. And to say one does "what is right in their heart" is to deny the very words of Christ ""Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" and the words of the Prophet "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" How can one claim to be a Christian and yet do not live as those why sat at the foot of the Apostles and even Christ himself?



Originally posted by ScienceDada
2. The identification of which writings were considered Holy scriptures was based on the Tradition of the Church...

Even in a previous post of yours, we'd both identified and agreed upon (for the most part) the criteria for the canon...and no, it was not tradition that defined scripture.

Scripture is the foundation, as you've put it Sola Scriptura (which to me is a bit of a misnomer anyway). The 'tradition' that comes from it is merely "following scripture".

The Tradition of the Church is much more than simply following the scriptures. In the very least, the Church in the first 50 years after Christ was almost exclusively based on Tradition, since the canonical scriptures had not even been authored yet.

I guess this is the simple bottom line. Scripture is only as good as the interpretation and the honesty involved in the reading. People can read the scriptures and genuinely disagree on the meaning or the priority given to various parts. The chaos of the various Protestant Churches is a testimony to this problem. Saying that God will tell you what is important and what is not is a cop out and is inconsistent with the writings of the Early Church and how they interpreted the scriptures. There are many such examples.

This is not to say that the Early Christians were a monolithic group---indeed, there were variations in readings even then. But the same could be said of the Apostles themselves. The relativism of modern Christians goes against what the Apostles and the Early Church fathers held as the true faith, which they defended and even went to death for. I have cited multiple examples in previous posts, one big one being pacifism and warfare.


Paul tells us that the church is to be serving the role of The Court... So yes, it is the ultimate court.

The Church is given the authority to judge, and Christians are commanded to not take their brothers to the courts. But if you insist, then I suppose then the Church could be likened to a court or a tribunal, sure. And even in tribunals and courts, the weight given to tradition (i.e., previous interpretations of law, precedent, and spirit of the law) is tremendously influential. So if you insist on such an analogy, then I will drop the argument in favor of the metaphor---but then Tradition becomes even weightier. So then, this "court" has historically given judgments on what the scriptures mean, so why do many modern Christians ignore these judgments? If an example is needed, one HUGE issue to illustrate this point is "salvation by grace through faith apart from works." This is not scriptural nor Traditional.



Originally posted by ScienceDada
When you read the writings of the early Christians, it becomes quite apparent that they argued as much, if not more, from the Tradition of the Church than they did from canonical scriptures.

Yes, which is exactly why we really need not argue about it again. All we have to do is understand their position and validate what is correct and why.

This validation cannot be done using the scriptures alone, nor by "asking Jesus into your heart" and place ones self in the role of judge. There are too many ambiguities and ways to take the scriptures out of context. If this point is to be argued, then that is fine. One huge one is the doctrine of "salvation by faith alone, through grace alone." This is not "scriptural" unless one cherry picks the scriptures; nor is it consistent with the faith of the Early Christians, as evidenced by their writings. There are many such things. So, the scriptures alone are necessary, but not sufficient, to define the Christian faith.



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 03:47 PM
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I like the clarification you'd started out with, so I'll skip to the more contentious points. Also, careful of the pot calling the kettle black on the "biased statements"
It's weird having this dialogue. One moment you've put forth some history, some logic, then out of nowhere a very negative bias. I've brought it up before, but will continue to do so of course. Not because I'm offended, but because I care enough about both of our progression to do so.


Originally posted by ScienceDada
And to say one does "what is right in their heart" is to deny the very words of Christ


Agreed, and is why this is commonly addressed by Protestant Pastors. If you need to proof, I'll send you the CD's. It's a human rationalization, not a Christian one, not a Protestant one.


Originally posted by ScienceDada
How can one claim to be a Christian and yet do not live as those why sat at the foot of the Apostles and even Christ himself?


Many people call themselves many things, yet fall short at fulfilling the role. However, while fingerpointing, remember, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."


Originally posted by ScienceDada
The Tradition of the Church is much more than simply following the scriptures.


Then there is a problem with this tradition.


Originally posted by ScienceDada
In the very least, the Church in the first 50 years after Christ was almost exclusively based on Tradition, since the canonical scriptures had not even been authored yet.


Which prompted the authoring AND and canon.


Originally posted by ScienceDada
I guess this is the simple bottom line. Scripture is only as good as the interpretation and the honesty involved in the reading. People can read the scriptures and genuinely disagree on the meaning or the priority given to various parts.


This is a problem with people, not the scripture.


Originally posted by ScienceDada
The chaos of the various Protestant Churches is a testimony to this problem.


The what? Mind posting a few riot photos for me?


Originally posted by ScienceDada
Saying that God will tell you what is important and what is not is a cop out


Really? Is that what scripture says? Do you not have a personal relationship with God?


Originally posted by ScienceDada
The relativism of modern Christians goes against what the Apostles and the Early Church fathers held as the true faith, which they defended and even went to death for.


We agree here. Relativism has no place in Christianity nor Protestantism.


Originally posted by ScienceDada
The Church is given the authority to judge, and Christians are commanded to not take their brothers to the courts.


Amen.


Originally posted by ScienceDada
But if you insist, then I suppose then the Church could be likened to a court or a tribunal, sure. And even in tribunals and courts, the weight given to tradition (i.e., previous interpretations of law, precedent, and spirit of the law) is tremendously influential. So if you insist on such an analogy, then I will drop the argument in favor of the metaphor---but then Tradition becomes even weightier. So then, this "court" has historically given judgments on what the scriptures mean, so why do many modern Christians ignore these judgments?


Simply put, when things are not in our favor, we refuse them. It is a selfish way to behave.


Originally posted by ScienceDada
If an example is needed, one HUGE issue to illustrate this point is "salvation by grace through faith apart from works." This is not scriptural nor Traditional.


"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." - Ephesians 2:7-9


Originally posted by ScienceDada
This validation cannot be done using the scriptures alone, nor by "asking Jesus into your heart"


It's this kind of phrase that has me worried about you, in all honesty. Why would Jesus being in your heart be insufficient?


Originally posted by ScienceDada
and place ones self in the role of judge.


Of course not oneself. God alone is judge as we both know.


Originally posted by ScienceDada
There are too many ambiguities


Intentionally so, so that we may discuss, grow, learn...and think. Do you not think God wants us to do these things?


Originally posted by ScienceDada
and ways to take the scriptures out of context.


Again, the fault of the person, not scripture if taken out of context.


Originally posted by ScienceDada
If this point is to be argued, then that is fine. One huge one is the doctrine of "salvation by faith alone, through grace alone." This is not "scriptural" unless one cherry picks the scriptures; nor is it consistent with the faith of the Early Christians, as evidenced by their writings.


Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace." - Luke 7:50

"but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works." - Romans 9:31-32

My dear friend, this is not "cherry picking", this is the message that continues book after book from John until Revelation. I haven't the character allotment to quote them all.

"This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." - Romans 3:22

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand." - Romans 5:1-2


Originally posted by ScienceDada
So, the scriptures alone are necessary, but not sufficient, to define the Christian faith.


True, knowledge does not save, so scripture alone does not save. The scriptures are a guide to help oneself establish a relationship with God.

[edit on 10-9-2008 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." - Ephesians 2:7-9


Ok, so to take point by point, this will require more simple posts. I am ok with that. And this is not off-topic, because what exactly "canonical" and "scripture" means totally depends on interpretation, which is what the argument rests upon. Yet even within the canonical scriptures, their meaning rests greatly upon what the language means.

This scripture quoting by verses is deceptive because the terms are often loaded so as to make scripture have a specific meaning when quoting verses. Please define your terms:
* Salvation
* Faith
* Works
* Boast



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 04:40 PM
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This is just a snippet out of ONE of those Dead Sea Scrolls

This is one supposedly about the child Jesus
Please read this (Christians) and do tell me how this can be the same Jesus of the bible .


Chapter 5, V
How the people of the city were grieved against Joseph because of that which Jesus did.

1. After that again he went through the village, and a child ran and dashed against his shoulder. And Jesus was provoked and said unto him: Thou shalt not finish thy course (lit. go all thy way). And immediately he fell down and died. But certain when they saw what was done said: Whence was this young child born, for that every word of his is an accomplished work?

Chapter 4, IV
1. And after certain days, as Jesus passed through the midst of the city, a certain child cast a stone at him and smote his shoulder. And Jesus said unto him: Thou shalt not finish thy course. And straightway he also fell down and died. And they that were there were amazed, saying: From whence is this child, that every word which he speaketh becometh a perfect work?

Chapter 5, V
How the people of the city were grieved against Joseph because of that which Jesus did.
1. And after some days as Jesus walked with Joseph through the city, there ran one of the children and smote Jesus on the arms: but Jesus said unto him: So finish thou thy course. And immediately he fell to the earth and died. But they when they saw this wonder, cried out saying: From whence cometh this child?
And the parents of him that was dead came unto Joseph, and blamed him, saying: Thou that hast such a child canst not dwell with us in the village: or do thou teach him to bless and not to curse: for he slayeth our children.

2. But they also departed and accused Joseph, saying: Thou wilt not be able to dwell with us in this city: but if thou wilt, teach thy child to bless and not to curse: for verily he slayeth our children: and every thing that he saith becometh a perfect work.
And they said unto Joseph: It is not right that such a child should be among us. And he departed and took him with him. And they said to him: Depart out of this place; and if thou must be with us, teach him to pray and not to blaspheme: for our sons are put to death by him (lit. lose their senses).


Does that sound like the same Jesus we know in the NT ?
NO

www.pseudepigrapha.com...


And this is just one itsy bitsy piece out of one book ..
It would take me all day and thousands of posts to show how these books are CONTRARY to what the word of God says..

Most of them speak of Mary as Lady Mary a saint like woman with powers like Christ who also healed etc (Catholic Mary comes to mind)
I can see why the Catholics added these to their bible as it just helps the Mary Worshipping (and angel worship and Saints this is in those texts too) stuff along ....

The only book (after reading every one of them) that I would even consider not to contrary to the word is the Ethiopian Enoch book ..And even it is questionable (at least to me ) because some of it just doesnt jive with what scripture says ..


Now this is just my own personal opinion .based on me reading them ..knowing what the bible says (about those subjects) and then reading up on the Essenes (who were an extreme jewish sect )they cannot be trusted either.
And they were the ones who supposedly wrote some of them ..some they had in their library etc ....Do some reading on the Essenes you will see what I am talking about.



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 04:50 PM
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Originally posted by Simplynoone
This is just a snippet out of ONE of those Dead Sea Scrolls... Does that sound like the same Jesus we know in the NT ?


Which scroll fragment was this? Do you mean the Nag Hammadi Library instead of the Dead Sea scrolls?



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 05:46 PM
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That one was the Infancy Gospel of Thomas
www.pseudepigrapha.com...



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 05:53 PM
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Originally posted by Simplynoone
That one was the Infancy Gospel of Thomas
www.pseudepigrapha.com...


The Infancy Gospel is not from the Dead Sea Scrolls. The only ones listed on that site that were are the "Community Rule" and "The 'Zadokite' Document."

The Infancy Infancy Gospel of Thomas was not among the Qumran texts.



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 05:54 PM
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Here is more from the Book of
The Avenging of the Saviour
www.pseudepigrapha.com...

This one is really out there.


Here is just small tidbit from this one ..
The first Gospel of the INFANCY of JESUS CHRIST
CHAPTER XIX

On another day Joseph sent his son James to gather wood and the Lord Jesus went with him; 2 And when they came to the place where the wood was, and James began to gather it, be- hold, a venomous viper bit him, so that he began to cry, and make a noise. 3 The Lord Jesus seeing him in this condition, came to him; and blowed upon the place where the viper had bit him, and it was instantly well.

4 On a certain day the Lord Jesus was with some boys, who were playing on the housetop, and one of the boys fell down, and presently died. 5 Upon which the other boys all running away, the Lord Jesus was left alone on the house-top. 6 And the boy's relations came to him and said to the Lord Jesus, Thou didst throw our son down from the housetop. 7 But he denying it, they cried out, Our son is dead, and this is he who killed him. 8 The Lord Jesus replied to them, Do not charge me with a crime, of which you are not able to convict me, but let us go ask the boy himself, who will bring the truth to light. 9 Then the Lord Jesus going down stood over the . of the dead boy, and said with a loud voice, Zeinunus, Zeinunus, who threw thee down from the house top? 10 Then the dead boy answered, thou didst not throw me down, but such a one did. 11 And when the Lord Jesus bade those who stood by to take notice of his words, all who were present praised God on account of that miracle.

12 On a certain time the Lady St. Mary had commanded the Lord Jesus to fetch her some water out of the well; 13 And when he had gone to fetch the water, the pitcher, when it was brought up full, brake. 14 But Jesus spreading his mantle gathered up the water again, and brought it in that to his mother. 15 Who, being astonished at this wonderful thing, laid up this, and all the other things which she had seen, in her memory.

16 Again on another day the Lord Jesus was with some boys by a river and they drew water out of the river by little channels, and made little fish pools. 17 But the Lord Jesus had made twelve sparrows, and placed them about his pool on each side, three on a side. 18 But it was the Sabbath day, and the son of Hanani a Jew came by, and saw them making these things, and said, Do ye thus make figures of clay on the Sabbath? And he ran to them, and broke down their fish pools. 19 But when the Lord Jesus clapped his hands over the sparrows which he had made, they fled away chirping. 20 At length the son of Hanani coming to the fish-pool of Jesus to destroy it, the water vanished away, and the Lord Jesus said to him, 21 In like manner as this water has vanished, so shall thy life vanish; and presently the boy died.

22 Another time, when the Lord Jesus was coming home in the evening with Joseph, he met a boy, who ran so hard against him, that he threw him down; 23 To whom the Lord Jesus said, As thou hast thrown me down, so shalt thou fall, nor ever rise. 24 And that moment the boy fell down and died.

www.pseudepigrapha.com...

NO way do I believe that when Jesus was a boy that he did any of these things ..no way would GOD do this when he came to SHOW HIS LOVE to the WORLD ....


[edit on 10-9-2008 by Simplynoone]



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 06:03 PM
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www.pseudepigrapha.com...

It says Lost Books of the Bible ...it includes them all
LOST BOOKS OF THE BIBLE
* Dead Sea Scrolls
o Community Rule
o The 'Zadokite' Document
* Narrative of Joseph of Arimathaea
* Epistle of the Apostles
* Report of Pilate the Procurator
* History of Joseph the Carpenter
* Apocryphon of James (Another version)
* The Letter of Peter to Philip
* Book of John the Evangelist
* Ptolemy's Commentary on the Gospel of John Prologue
* Avenging of the Saviour
* The Apocryphon of John (Long Version)
* The Sentances of Sextus
* Book of Thomas the Contender
* Lost Books of the Bible
o The GOSPEL of the BIRTH OF MARY
o The PROTEVANGELION (Another version)
o The first Gospel of the INFANCY of JESUS CHRIST
o The Infancy Gospel of Thomas Composit
+ Greek (A)
+ Greek (B)
+ Latin
o Infancy Compilation (all)
o The Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew
o THE EPISTLES of JESUS CHRIST and ABGARUS KING of EDESSA (Another version)
o The GOSPEL of NICODEMUS (or ACTS of PONTIUS PILATE) (Another Version)
o Letters of HEROD and PILATE
o The APOSTLES' CREED
o THE EPISTLE of PAUL the APOSTLE to the LAODICEANS
o The EPISTLES of PAUL the APOSTLE to SENECA (w/SENECA's to PAUL)
o The ACTS of PAUL and THECLA
o The FIRST EPISTLE of CLEMENT to the CORINTHIANS
o The SECOND EPISTLE of CLEMENT to the CORINTHIANS
o The GENERAL EPISTLE OF BARNABAS
o The EPISTLE of IGNATIUS to the EPHESIANS
o The EPISTLE of IGNATIUS to the MAGNESIANS
o The EPISTLE of IGNATIUS to the TRALLIANS
o The EPISTLE of IGNATIUS to the ROMANS
o The EPISTLE of IGNATIUS to the PHILADELPHIANS
o The EPISTLE of IGNATIUS to the SMYRNAEANS
o The EPISTLE of IGNATIUS to POLYCARP
o The EPISTLE of POLYCARP to the PHILIPPIANS
o HERMAS
o The First Book of HERMAS (or VISIONS)
o The Second Book of HERMAS (or COMMANDS)
o LETTERS OF HEROD AND PILATE
o THE LOST GOSPEL ACCORDING TO PETER
o THE GOSPEL of PETER - LAST
o The EPISTLE of IGNATIUS to the PHILIPPIANS
o The MARTYRDOM of IGNATIUS
o The MARTYRDOM of POLYCARP
o TERTULLIAN on SPECTICALS
o TERTULLIAN on PRAYER
o TERTULLIAN on PATIENCE
o TERTULLIAN on MARTYRS
o The Report of Pilate to Caesar
o Gospel of Bartholomew
o Gospel of Thomas
o Gospel of Phillip
o Secret Gospel of Mark
o Book of Marcion
o Excerpts from the Gospel of Mary
o The Letter of Aristeas
o The Didache


[edit on 10-9-2008 by Simplynoone]



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by Simplynoone
www.pseudepigrapha.com...
It says Lost Books of the Bible ...it includes them all


Usually, "The Bible" means the scriptures that Christians recognize as genuine Apostolic writings (although it can also be applied to the Hebrew Writings alone, as in 'Hebrew Bible'). Some of the books here were not written until after the year 200 C.E. Since Christ died sometime around 30-35 C.E. A blatant example of this is the listing of Tertullian who wasn't born until about 160 C.E.

So you found a website that claims a bunch of books were once part of "The Bible" but so what? Demonstrate that these actually were considered canonical. I cannot following your reasoning here.



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 06:29 PM
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I dont believe they belong anywhere near the bible nor taken as part of the bible.

Thats my opinion ..

As I said before even the books of Enoch are questionable .
There are things in there that dont really jive with what scripture says.



posted on Sep, 10 2008 @ 06:44 PM
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Originally posted by Simplynoone
I dont believe they belong anywhere near the bible nor taken as part of the bible.

Thats my opinion ..

As I said before even the books of Enoch are questionable .
There are things in there that dont really jive with what scripture says.


Oh... I gotcha. I am not sure that case is consistent. Several of these works do jive with scripture.

The Shepherd (Hermas) was very widely used in the Early Church, and many attributed it to Hermas, whom Paul mentions. The Didache (also called "The Teaching of the Twelve") was a very early work, and also widely used. There is a very legitimate argument for the First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, as Paul referred to Clement in his Epistles also.

Some might go so far as to include the Epistles of Ignatius, as he was a student of the Apostle John, but because he was not an Apostle himself many would say that he does not belong in the canon. But if this argument were consistent, then the Epistles of James and Jude would be omitted, as would the Apocalypse of John (i.e. Revelation), the Gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles (since Luke was not an Apostle either).

The other works given on the site (unless I have missed some) have no substantial arguments to support their inclusion in "The Bible" since the Church has always rejected them.



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by ScienceDada
Yet even within the canonical scriptures, their meaning rests greatly upon what the language means.


Probably not as much as many may think. The great thing about the Bible is it repeats itself many times in many different ways (parables included), thereby reducing the need for interpretation and causality of error.


Originally posted by ScienceDada
This scripture quoting by verses is deceptive because the terms are often loaded so as to make scripture have a specific meaning when quoting verses. Please define your terms:
* Salvation
* Faith
* Works
* Boast


My hope is that everyone owns a dictionary and can render useless the need to create our own personal definitions. The result otherwise would be a generation of confusion instead of a clarification thereof. We'd also be duplicating the efforts of the eight year exercise compiling the New Internation Version, but with the few scholarly people here instead of those listed in their multi-year project. We don't have to take "their word for it" but when several translations matching by several translators, is there really a need? Unless of course one believe that all of these translators and translations are in league of some kind of multi-millenium conspiracy...


[edit on 11-9-2008 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 12:25 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by ScienceDada
Yet even within the canonical scriptures, their meaning rests greatly upon what the language means.


Probably not as much as many may think. The great thing about the Bible is it repeats itself many times in many different ways (parables included), thereby reducing the need for interpretation and causality of error.


Originally posted by ScienceDada
This scripture quoting by verses is deceptive because the terms are often loaded so as to make scripture have a specific meaning when quoting verses. Please define your terms:
* Salvation
* Faith
* Works
* Boast


My hope is that everyone owns a dictionary and can render useless the need to create our own personal definitions. The result otherwise would be a generation of confusion instead of a clarification thereof. We'd also be duplicating the efforts of the eight year exercise compiling the New Internation Version, but with the few scholarly people here instead of those listed in their multi-year project. We don't have to take "their word for it" but when several translations matching by several translators, is there really a need? Unless of course one believe that all of these translators and translations are in league of some kind of multi-millenium conspiracy... [edit on 11-9-2008 by saint4God]


No, it really matters. Because by changing the meaning of words, you can completely manipulate the meaning of the scriptures. And this is the hidden agenda of Sola Scriptura... that in the end, it just ends up being Sola, where every reader gets to make up their own mind. And this is both against what the scriptures themselves state:

2 Peter 1:20-21 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Defaulting to dictionary meanings and trusting translators is a cop-out, and I know because I have done translation work. The translators have great influence over the readers because their is as much interpretation of meaning as there is of definition. I am able to show numerous examples from a translation (such as the NIV since you brought that up in a previous post) where the theological bias of the translators is evident.

Even in Roman Catholicism where the Greek word "mystery" is translated as "sacrament" or "repent" is translated as "do pennance," it totally changes the connotations of the words because they don't map 1-to-1 in Latin, let alone English. Probably one of the biggest loss in translation is the mapping of "agape" or "phileo" or "eros" into "love." It might not change the meaning from the point of view of a translator, but it does to someone who is building a theology or a "church" from a blueprint. So yes, it totally matters.

Again, I request that you define the terms, or at least provide a "standard" definition, and it likely takes one of two forms:
* The definition is ambiguous enough to allow for multiple interpretations
* The definition is precise to conform with a specific tradition, but then the word is used in various ways as to render the text of the "scriptures" ambiguous or inconsistent

Given this problem, Sola Scriptura is quickly rendered as either a tradition of man or it is admitted that the text of the scriptures is ambiguous, which then makes it clear that Sola Scriptura is an attempt to recreate the Christian Church from an ambiguous document. From this point, the debate usually degenerates into either an appeal to leading by the Holy Spirit and the ensuing relativism (i.e., the chaos in the Protestant church where "every man does what is right in his own eyes") or a flat out refusal to admit that there is any ambiguity in the scripture, denying that any chaos exists within "Bible-based" Protestantism.

I am not trying to play poker here, and I don't mind "showing my hand" because I have hammered on this so much for so many years. Protestant doctrine is internally inconsistent while touting itself to be consistent, logical, and reasonable. If we need to delve into the scriptures to demonstrate this, I am up for it.
So, I reiterate my previous request to define the terms. And while you are at it, why don't you also define "scripture" (just to make sure that the moderators do not see this as an off-topic post). Then we can let the facts speak for themselves.



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
...Unless of course one believe that all of these translators and translations are in league of some kind of multi-millenium conspiracy...


I will see what I can find on the web concerning the background of the committee, but I imagine that it was dominated by Protestants, lacking input from Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic scholars. As such, it would have a Protestant bias. Does this qualify as a conspiracy? I suppose it would, yes.

(Update) I found this quickly on the web NIV Committee(s). Is this accurate? If so, then it was populated entirely by Protestants (or people refusing to supply an affiliation, which are almost certainly from a Protestant-like tradition). If this is true, than I wouldn't trust the NIV to be accurately translated as far as my "salvation" is concerned, no.

I anticipate your reply



[edit on 2008-9-11 by ScienceDada]



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 12:35 PM
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The key to communication is to have agreeable definitions to words. The reason why English is taught in school and the reason why the dictionary was "birthed" was so that all people speaking the same language (English in this case) can relay through words specific meanings. While there are slight variations of a word, on the whole they are the same. Again, biblically messages are repeated. Messages are re-phrased. Messages are even put into allegorical parables! How many modes of communication does one require? If two people cannot agree on the staple (in this case being the English classes we've attended and the dictionary which is the known staple of the language) then seriously, there's no logical reason to attempt to communicate at all. We can all just make up our own definitions, tickle ourselves silly with how creative we are individually, and live in a world isolated from meaningful exchange.

"For English, press 1"

[edit on 11-9-2008 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 12:38 PM
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Originally posted by ScienceDada
I anticipate your reply


What do you mean by "anticipate"? Do you mean "eagerly await"? Or do you mean "with expectation"?



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 01:27 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by ScienceDada
I anticipate your reply
What do you mean by "anticipate"? Do you mean "eagerly await"? Or do you mean "with expectation"?

Eagerly await.

After all, the prevelant answer on this entire thread for the choosing of what was "scripture" was either (a) Tradition or (b) internal consistency with "the Bible." I assert that it was not (b). Thus, I am "showing my hand" as to why... because it was in fact Tradition of the Church. And Traditionally, many of the non-canonical books (which are not anti-scriptural at all) have been used in the Church for teaching, reproof, and correction. They are just not considered Apostolic; neither are the Law, the Prophets, or "the writings" (i.e., the Tanakh). It does not mean that because their contents are outside of the canon and therefore may be ignored if they don't agree with Protestant theology or practice.

The treatment of canonical scriptures as "God's word" or "God breathed" is fine within context. But to the extent that many Protestants take this to extend "necessary and sufficient" to "perfect, exact, absolute, and essential" is idolatry, and I have no problem identifying it as such. Subjugating the non-canonical writings to a Protestant interpretation of the canonical is a travesty. Case in point: The Shepherd (Hermas)... it totally decimates the Protestant worldview. Why is that?

It is devastating to Protestant apologetics, theology, and practice when these fact are exposed. I try to lessen the blow, but I cannot ignore the truth because then I would be denying God himself.



posted on Sep, 11 2008 @ 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by ScienceDada
Eagerly await.


That doesn't sounds like a made up answer. How did you come to that definition?


Originally posted by ScienceDada
It is devastating to Protestant apologetics, theology, and practice when these fact are exposed.


Help! I'm being devastated by someone else's opinion being stated as fact! Who was is it that 'turned against you' in the Protestant faith?


Originally posted by ScienceDada
I try to lessen the blow, but I cannot ignore the truth because then I would be denying God himself.


Yet you'll deny a personal relationship with God? Why is this?

[edit on 11-9-2008 by saint4God]



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