Personal Revelation on Evil....

Evil exists as a potentiality because of the differing levels of perfection and since we are imperfect beings and endowed with free will, evil becomes so often a reality. I don't think it is part of a dual system good-evil.

Alexandros

reply to post by EagleTalonZ


To tell you the truth, it took me a while to even read any of your posts, just because of your screen name.
A little scary, that name is, eagle talon. Maybe I was afraid of getting hurt.
You are right that I find your take on that story in the Gospel interesting.
My point comes from looking at a Protestant concept of the Bondage of the will.
I take the Protestant side vs. the Catholic side.
In so doing, I have to support the view that we have no free will.
I have to avoid going so far as to become Calvinistic.
I think we have choices, but we can never stand on our own merits.
We may be good in the eyes of men, but will always fall short, in the eyes of God.
I would encourage everyone to take advantage of any opportunity, to make good choices in this life.
We constantly make bad choices.
If we get to a point where we are acting so well, we may fall prey to something worse, like pride.
If we ever got to thinking we were pretty good, and could stand on our own merits, then we have already fallen.
We have to come to the ends of our lives knowing, that no matter how good we think we are, we still need the covering of Christ.

reply to post by EagleTalonZ


I will respond to your thread as a non-religious person. Formerly religious like you, but left it because it no longer worked for me.

One of the hardest things for me to accept was the concept that Jah and Satan may - to one degree, or another, be actually on the same team. It goes so contrary to religion. This is not to say that there are not demons that are very adversarial.

We needed as humans, the adversarial role that Satan took on as a contrast for; choice. We definitely were created with free will. But God created in us the wisdom to know the difference, based on knowledge and personal experience! If he influences us too much, we lose our free will. Religion creates subliminally - automatons (borg). If our will is broken - we become a good candidate for being sheep-like. The irony is; the Bible promotes this idea. My thoughts are on this thread; www.abovetopsecret.com...'

It was necessary to create good and evil as a choice for us lemmings to differentiate between what is right, and what is wrong. Adam & Eve relinquished the right to learn this lesson on Gods time. They never gained the wisdom to know the difference. They lacked the knowledge and experience, and so were gullible. I did a thread on Adam & Eve: www.belowtopsecret.com...

So it was passed down to us; this dualism to accomplish the same thing that learning from the "tree" was supposed to do. Free will helps us to defend what is right from wrong. We become our own conscience instead of using others to be that for us, so we do not turn our will over to anyone or anything else.

Evil has a Godly quality to it. The Bible speaks of God doing evil acts at times. The definition would vary according to how the word is being used. The demons have run with this enigma since the beginning, and have lent a very negative connotation to it. And the fact that we have inherited 'shame' from the beginning would also obscure the definitions of both evil and good!

So, I agree with you...it is very subjective. I think that if we can get out of our box we can learn much!

The psychology writer Alice Miller, whose website is at the link below, developed an interesting biological definition for good and for evil:

The good is that which nurtures and protects life.

Evil is never merely the reverse of good, it is the destroyer of good. That is why evil is such a problem, because the good which it destroyed can never exist again.

(These statements on good and evil are paraphrased from her writings, not exact quotes.) And here's that link:


www.alice-miller.com...


On that link, "The Untouched Key" is the title of her book that I think you will find most of interest in examining issues of good and evil. The examination of Picasso's childhood, in particular, sheds an amazing amount of light on some of his paintings which have always been controversial, such as Guernica. The examination of the childhoods of Stalin and Hitler, on the other hand, reveal basically how to make a monster.

[edit on 5/19/2008 by Uphill]

What is Evil? Evil is subjective in nature. The one saying "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" the acts of good and evil are subjective and it is to the individual who decides what is good and what is right. It is up to you to decide what is morally right and wrong.

It’s like the old Indian saying "a man has two wolves in his heart, the good one and the bad one. It is up to him to which one he feeds" So to say nonetheless it is hard to come up with a moral law of good and evil that EVERYONE will abide by or accept.

reply to post by Uphill


I like Alice Miller and have read some of her books. They deal with abuse in its worst forms and show a truly evil side to life. Along with M. Scott Peck - "People of the Lie." This is where the definition of evil takes on a terrible connotation and reality. A lot of us have experienced true evil. In that context there can be no denial!

Many words take on different meanings. As I said, evil can take on a righteous meaning - God doing it, verses the terrible evil that are demon influenced, or are due to how we have been environmentally raised.

Awesome! I'm very glad to see other people joining the discussion. This is what I was hoping for. Now if I can get everyone to see the NECESSITY of evil in order to have free will. That would be wonderful, but, I find wisdom in listening and debating many points of view. So keep em' coming!! lol

As for my name, it's actually a car that I owned that I fell in love with. Eagle Talon. Much like the Mitsubishi Eclipse, or Plymouth Laser. lol I was a huge DSM fan, so I have always kept the name. (DSM- Diamond Star Motors), so don't be afraid, it has nothing to do with the bird, or of an evil intent on seeking out prey. lol

As for my views on this subject, I still stand by them. I think if you view the bad things as necessity in growing, you can overcome so much more, and I think you grow pretty much immediately just from that revelation. I just don't see things as evil, wicked... I see them as still not good, but also not as destruction. Hope that makes sense.

Also, Matrix, I'm glad you joined. You and I have enjoyed some awesome debates, and I always appreciate your wisdom and insight.

Thanks again to everyone else for sharing your thoughts.. as I said... keep em' coming. I really enjoy it...

reply to post by EagleTalonZ

As for my views on this subject, I still stand by them. I think if you view the bad things as necessity in growing, you can overcome so much more, and I think you grow pretty much immediately just from that revelation. I just don't see things as evil, wicked... I see them as still not good, but also not as destruction. Hope that makes sense.

I agree with aspects of this comment. We need to have the wisdom to know the difference. If we cannot see the difference between good and evil we cannot take a stand in life, and grow.

But...I have lived with evil. There is a very dark side to life, and some very evil people out there. There are actually those that have the evil intent of driving you insane in a literal sense. There are those that have no conscience, and no good, in them.

My husband had the opportunity to interview Ted Bundy. Talk about someone who was evil! There is an aerie-ness about them that you never forget. I have been in homes that were possessed. Perpetually cold, no matter how many times someone comes out to check the furnace. You never forget when you have been attacked by demons and those possessed! I do recommend reading M. Scott Peck's book (author of "The Road Less Traveled") "People of the Lie." It is a little creepy but helpful in understanding the covert evil that exists in families and in society.

I am a counselor and I have seen many Satanic ritually abused clients and have heard stories beyond ones imagination. Once a person actually physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually experiences evil - you cannot go backwards. Often unfortunately, it is something that has to be experienced in order to believe.

Also, Matrix, I'm glad you joined. You and I have enjoyed some awesome debates, and I always appreciate your wisdom and insight.

Why, thank you!! I can say the same!

reply to post by MatrixProphet



I completely understand what you're saying. I my thoughts on what you said are this: People can become completely infatuated with the power they feel in choosing either side. You mentioned Ted Bundy, but a few others would be Charles Manson, Adolf Hitler, and in all truth, anyone who loses the value of life, and only has truly selfish intent. They all sought out the power of making others suffer by their hands, in their evil choices.

On the flip side, some men believe they are so good, as if empowered by God to rid the world of "evil", that they too hurt people. Look at all the religious murders. People killed in the name of God, and the power of good. The witch trials would be a great example. And this wasn't good, it was pure intolerance, but they didn't see it that way. It's just a matter of perception.

I was thinking about this topic as I woke up. I think biblically speaking, it could be best said like this: "All things work together for the good..."

How many times does the bible use trials to show us that it is the only way we learn? In truth, you can't learn without having been taught a lesson. Nothing just comes to you. You must suffer, to know pain. And you must heal, to know the value of patience and to be able to connect with others on that level. Your eyes are opened, and BOOM!... new revelation.

While I have not been in a cell with a mass murderer, or had to flee the genocide of millions... I have faced the evils of men on other levels. The lack of understanding, and bad choices... and while it is not the extremity of evil that you mentioned, it would still be the opposite of good. And I still got deeply hurt. But in the end, I grew. And I continue to grow. And I once heard a wise man say something like this, "If you ever feel you have stopped growing, it's time to raise your horizons. There is always more to learn." And I would have to agree.

reply to post by MatrixProphet


I heard you were not allowed to even say, Satanic ritually abused, in court.
How do you deal with that when we have a government that refuses to admit that such a thing exists?

reply to post by EagleTalonZ

On the flip side, some men believe they are so good, as if empowered by God to rid the world of "evil", that they too hurt people. Look at all the religious murders. People killed in the name of God, and the power of good. The witch trials would be a great example. And this wasn't good, it was pure intolerance, but they didn't see it that way. It's just a matter of perception.

Absolutely true! I have seen a number of evil things within religion. Religion in of itself, through the un-saids, and through guilt and shame, can also be a form of evil. It gets down to motives. Are we doing something out of love or control? How does it affect the lives you are controlling? If the end result is one of destroying everyones 'will' to enmesh with the masses, then, we can have anything but a righteous, loving, honest, result.

Note: I am not saying this of all religion or all of the religious. I have seen and heard too much though, so I am against religion. I prefer the straight connection! LOL!

I have become really in tune through life experience to understand all the covert evil that exists. Everyone does have a choice, but often don't realize it, or are brainwashed to believe that they are going against the will of God if they go against their leaders. It is such mind control! The irony is; "What does God have to do with any of it?"

Like you, I am really grateful for my life experiences. I wouldn't want to go through a lot of it again, but...I am grateful for it. For all the experience we have - we can share it with others. We can have all the knowledge in the world, but first hand experience over-rides it.

And my relationship with God has grown expediently with it. He seems to have demanded it.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Good question. I don't go to court. You are right. It is hardly acknowledged and is just starting to get more recognition in the mental health field.

The influx of people allegedly saying they had experiences in this arena is staggering. I talk to other professionals and many of them don't have a clue as to how to handle them!

Quite honestly, I try to avoid these clients as much as I can. There are numerable reasons why. Unfortunately, it connects one to the dark side in, at times; a significant way. I am a grief counselor. You can imagine the grief these clients have!

I certainly will have nothing to do with exorcising.

reply to post by MatrixProphet



See, that is basically all I'm saying. It's a matter of perception on most levels. I agree that men do bad. But how do they and others around them perceive those acts? Evil is a broad word. But as I said, also very necessary to have true growth.

You said it well, life experience is where it's at. I am completely thankful for where I am. No offense to Christians, but I can't imagine being back in that circle now. I remember thinking often of what I couldn't do, more than what I could. But of course at the time, I didn't mind. I saw freedom in serving Him and Him alone. Now I feel as if looking back, I was a caged animal in the vast expanse of space. I thought my world was so big, but now.... wow. I feel extremely free. It's very sobering to open your mind.

reply to post by EagleTalonZ


How long has it been since you left religion? I call it; leaving the God Box!

reply to post by MatrixProphet



It's been almost a year. When I first left, I wasn't really searching out other options. Or anything. I just hated religion and God. But then it eventually became a search for Truth. I can't live in nothingness. So I became interested in knowing more. Which to me was like jumping on a train that goes very fast. And has opened my eyes in such ways that I couldn't imagine going back.

"God box" is an accurate description in my opinion.

reply to post by EagleTalonZ


I starred you because I had a very similar experience or feelings. I left religion almost 12 years ago.

I was on a treadmill when I talked to God and told him how I felt. "If this is your religion and they have the truth and your approval, then I want nothing to do with it. If this is your religion and this is what I'm meant to do, then I guess I will just have to die! Because I will not be part of anything that says they love one another - yet prove that they don.'t. You can no longer be my God!"

It took a relatively short time for him to show me that I was on the right track. But I had so much to overcome! "If you leave the religion...God will leave you...(expletive)." I then had to go on gut. I joined some ex-religion sites and found that I did not want what they had. For one thing, most turned to atheism. They threw the baby out with the bath water. That did not make sense to me. Why should God be punished for what religion taught, and does?

You sound real willing. So was I. I just asked him to show me, teach me everything. Then the floodgates opened! It was a little much at first, but soon I could let go of all the brainwashing to move forward. Always with the devils advocate thinking in the background. It took a while to overcome that stage.

Anyway, this is interesting to talk about. It also involved getting a different perspective on evil as we have been discussing.

The God Box came from elsewhere, but I loved it when I first heard it. To grow spiritually, one must be willing to get out of a box that determines who, and what, God is, and his teachings!