Personal Revelation on Evil....

Yesterday while I was at work, I began thinking about my next tattoo. I wanted something that would have personal meaning to me, and in my search for truth. So, I thought maybe getting the Ying Yang symbol would be appropriate. This led me to think of the meaning behind the symbol, which is good and evil are and must be balanced.

Then it hit me. Evil isn't really bad. It is necessary. Without evil, there would be no good. And without good, there would be no evil. They must coincide. And that means that there is no such thing as bad evil. Or really evil, for that matter. The concept is flawed.

what do you all think? I think it's important to note that everyday seems like I've grown more. So if you don't agree... give me a couple of days and I'm sure I'll have found the error anyways. lol

reply to post by EagleTalonZ


As you are aware, bsbray11 advocated this attitude recently:

(Originally posted by bsbray11)

I don't even think the concepts of "right" and "wrong" have any real meaning anymore.

I offered the following reply:

People can just rape their children and abuse others as much as they see fit. Nice philosophy. Maybe that guy in Austria shares your beliefs...

on this thread: www.belowtopsecret.com...

Your statement

Evil isn't really bad.

is simply deplorable. Evil constitutes behaviour such as cruelty, injustice, oppression and the ruining and destruction of other people's lives.

Your statement that good and evil must be balanced suggests you have lost sensitivity to the suffering that evil causes. While your philosophy might sound satisfying in the realm of the abstract, in the real world it can only promote evil, and is consequently itself in the same category.

pause 4 thought is 100% correct..

Tell the ones who get killed by cerial rapest that evil is a good thing.....

God makes good come out of some evils and he tries to, but one day evil will be nomore and there will be a world heaven which will finally have nomore evil in it.....

peace.

[edit on 13-5-2008 by JesusisTruth]

reply to post by EagleTalonZ


The Taoist conception of yin and yang, where the symbol has its roots, speaks of the complementary energies of earth & sky, male and female. I'm not sure good and evil, in our modern Judeo-Christian since, would fit the symbol.

See, even as I typed my original thought, I knew those answers would come. And as I was thinking about this last night, I began to prepare for them. It is not the negative energy that is bad. It is the perception of THAT energy that men have misinterpreted. Which makes the statement that, "good and evil are not what the yin and yang represent" correct. Because it is not to advocate for that principle.

The people who do wrong. The ones who murder without question. Who rape children. Who bring about the misery of so many lives for their own selfish pleasure... they are wrong. And I can't agree with their mentality. And to say I have lost sensitivity with right and wrong, is also not correct. I still understand the pain. I still see the hurt that it causes. But you must ask yourselves this question if you wish to take the religious stance against my point:

Why did God allow it in the first place? Why did He create it? Why was the possibility of it even given in free will? You said soon there will be no more evil, which means that men must lose their free will. Because as long as there IS free will, there can be evil. Satan cannot create, if you choose to take this route. And many have argued that God did not create evil, that it is simply the absence of good. So does that make good the absence of evil? Do you assume that in the holy and revered times of God's reign on earth.. that once He tosses satan into the abyss, that all evil will vanish? I think perhaps you should reconsider your position. It contradicts itself.

What I am saying... is that good and "evil" will always exist. But they are neither great, nor negative in all truth. They are both necessary. They balance one another. And neither can exist without the other. If you say you want a world without evil, then you will have a world void of any emotion, or "good".

And also, don't assume that because people are allowing more possibilities, that they are losing sight of what is happening. Perhaps you live in the land of a flat world, while we are sailing the Oceans of Insight and Understanding.

...that's just a thought.

reply to post by EagleTalonZ


WOW. That is one of 'THE' most intelligent replies to being that I have ever had the pleasure to read ... here or anywhere else 'bravo'.

After reading the OP and the replies that followed I had my response to those who see in 'dog-vision' (black and white) all draughted and ready to post ... then I read your reply and it says it all !

I would just like to add a few words to all those who replied before;

Try to switch off the 'dog-vision' and look at the message as it was intended ... only seeing the 'superficial' can lead to knee-jerk reactions ... as you all demonstrated with expert precision above.

The words GOOD and EVIL seem to have provoked an inflamatory reaction so substitute them for LIGHT and SHADOW ... take a deep breath ... and relax.

Now tell me with a sane mind and a straight face, that (however good someone might be), we don't ALL have both a 'light' and a 'shadow' side.

Hopefully after contemplating that for a moment most / some / one of you might begin to see the OP's point.

I was originally going to say something about the need to ackowledge the 'shadow' ... so that we can appreciate the 'light' and become balanced, well-rounded human-beings, but EagleTalonZ has put it much better than I ever could.

Woody

reply to post by EagleTalonZ

Because as long as there IS free will, there can be evil.

People engage in morally wrong behaviour because they want to. If the will can be changed, the inclination to do wrong can also.

This is what happens when a person realises that Jesus Christ really was the Son of God who voluntarily allowed himself to endure the punishment for their own personal guilt. When a person is born again they receive a new nature that finds morally wrong behaviour as defined in the Scriptures repugnant, but finds delight in living God's way. This is God's solution to the human condition: change the will.

Do you assume that in the holy and revered times of God's reign on earth.. that once He tosses satan into the abyss, that all evil will vanish? I think perhaps you should reconsider your position. It contradicts itself.

No. Your conclusion is incorrect because you have not grasped what God is going to do. Once people have been born again they detest evil in any shape or form, from lying to immorality. They cannot avoid doing wrong completely, however, because there are still enemies at work which can lead them astray.

Once the such a person leaves this body they are in line for a new body: one which is not subject to the same weaknesses. The result is: a nature that desires only what God defines as good (received here) and a body that is capable of living according to the renewed will. All that opposes God's will in the form of temptation will have been banished for eternity. The result - evil in all its forms will no longer be practiced by those who love God.

Those who did not want to change here will inhabit a place where God leaves them to their own devices, free to rail against their Maker and His ways, but trapped there for all eternity.

pause4thought

Thank you for replying. Allow me to ask the question I asked my mom when she brought up the same thing.

Do you wish to be a robot? Because the problem with God's defined perfect Heaven is this: He will eliminate evil. Therefore, there won't really be free will. You will only be ABLE to do good, because you won't have a choice to do otherwise. You would say, "we wouldn't WANT to" which would be true. And perhaps you would say, "Our nature and our desires will change" which would also be true. However, it's you wouldn't have a choice anyways. Your new bodies would come complete with a loss of free will.

The reason I say "evil" is not bad, is because if you love having free will, you must also appreciate what evil is. And part of the problem with this, is because I don't really know another word to describe it. When I say evil, you automatically raise flags. My friend calls it the Shadows. Regardless... if you love free will, you have to get beyond yourself and see that we need it. It balances out everything. It doesn't mean that hurting others is right. But it means that the choice of not doing so, was your own, and not forced upon you.

But go ahead... keep asking for what I will term, "Imprisonment". If President Bush called Martial Law tomorrow, and said, "I want the people put in concentration camps. No more freedom of speech for them. It's in their best interest" would you say, "SWEET! We can't argue or call him names anymore. Now we'll all be happy!" or would you say, "Hey, this is a loss of my freedoms." The concept is basically the same. However, could be hard for some to connect the dots I suppose.

Anyway... you have to get beyond your normal logic. Stop letting doctrine and religion hold you back from understanding. Even if you didn't come to understand what I'm saying, it would be beneficial in overcoming bad events in your life. You would perhaps see them as a learning experience. A trial that you benefited from. And I think it's important to realize that without storms, trials, challenges... you don't have any rainbows, or victories. Where is the excitement in that?

Evil isn't necessarily bad... it is just necessary to have free will.

reply to post by EagleTalonZ


In your previous post you asked:

Why was the possibility of evil even given in free will?

Yet now you say that removing the possibility of evil makes free will impossible!

You are tying yourself in knots by trying to avoid the simple truth: people who love God will enjoy Him forever. They will have no need or desire for any alternative.

Who needs temptation when this ruined world has already proved perfectly well where it can lead?

As to why God permitted it in the first place - the answer lies in the realm of 'the deep things of God'. After studying the Bible for nearly three decades on a daily basis I can only claim to be able to put my feet on the first rung or two of an answer. Before getting anywhere near being able to profit from such a discussion a person needs to grasp the elemental principles of the oracles of God. I.e. without firstly accepting that Christ was who He said He was, becoming His disciple and following His teaching, such musings will inevitably lead to endless fruitless speculation, nothing more my friend.

pause4thought

*ahem* Allow me first to make sure you understand. I feel for sure, that you do not. Nor do I really expect you to. I understand it's not a concept easily accepted, especially when someone is so deeply rooted in religious doctrine.

My purpose for saying, "why was it even allowed...?" was to prove that God created it. And why would God create something that was so bad? He KNEW it had to be created, or else you wouldn't HAVE free will.

Why is that so hard to understand? IF God eliminates evil, He removes your ability to choose. And that means, your free will is no longer there. You don't choose. You only do as you "desire". Call it what you want.. free will doesn't exist anymore.

You have to overcome the simple intellectual concept that has been rooted within you from religion. I have stood where you are. I know it's hard to comprehend. But... there is much wisdom in it. It is the eternal balance. And is completely necessary.

It's time to step outside the box...

[edit on 15-5-2008 by EagleTalonZ]

reply to post by EagleTalonZ


God does not allow evil to continue in order to give us a choice.
Evil exists because our ancient ancestors chose evil.
We inherited an evil world that they created for us.
We no longer have the ability to be good, even if we want to.
If we had that ability, there would be no reason to have a Savior.

Evil is bad. Necessary? maybe, or at least you seem to believe that the possibility to do evil is necessary, rather than actually doing evil as being necessary. Perhaps true, perhaps not. That doesn't justify evil, however. Evil actions are not necessary. Inevitable? perhaps. Good doesn't need to be balanced by evil. Evil needs to be balanced by good, because there is no purpose for evil without good.

Seems to me that only the religious have found this thread. lol

The concept is simple, people. The balance is there. And MUST be there in order for there to be free will. Prove to me that this is not true. If you remove evil from the world, and only good exists... the world would be an awesome place, true. However, if you couldn't choose to DO evil, then you really don't have free will. And vice versa.

It is necessary. And you should learn to see it that way. It has actually helped me a lot since I learned this only a few days ago. That doesn't mean I'm doing anything evil, in fact.. I still believe in karma, so I'm still striving to do all the good I can.

And also, evil wasn't created by our ancestors. That isn't even biblical. The first demonstration of "evil" would have been recorded when Lucifer thought himself higher than God and was tossed from Heaven. Still.. whether you are a believer that evil is just the absence of good... or that satan created it.. (which he can NOT)... evil was born then. (according to the bible) But still... God created it somehow. And no one can prove otherwise. But that still isn't my point, because I personally don't even believe in that concept. I'm just using your argument for the sake of this lovely debate.

If evil is so bad, why does God allow satan into Heaven? Doesn't the bible say no sin can enter into heaven? Yet, satan enters it repeatedly to accuse. Just look up the story of Job.

blah blah.. this is all besides the point.

Good/Evil coexist. Believe it or not, you must have both to have true free will. If you can't CHOOSE good, or evil... then you don't really have free will. Hence, free will. That ability to choose is what determines true freedom. Today, I want to lie. That's my choice. And tomorrow, I will feed a homeless man. That is also my choice.

See my point? It's not complicated. But hey... if you want to be robots, go for it. I like the ability to choose, personally. And I accept the balance.

reply to post by EagleTalonZ


My point is that there is no free will.
There may be for people living on other planets that have not fallen.
Our planet is a fallen planet and we have lost free will.
It is too late for us to decide to follow Gods instructions for what is good for us.
Adam is the father of the human race, for our planet.
Adam fell, and all his decedents, with him.
We can follow the example of Job and try to resist openly cursing God for the evil that has befallen us, be we really only have scarce ability to do even that.
Besides, the Satan myth is a metaphor to explain why God allows extreme evil to exist.
The real Satan is an agent of God to bring down the would-be rulers of the world, who would otherwise cause the world to not have a single person left alive.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by EagleTalonZ

 

My point is that there is no free will.
There may be for people living on other planets that have not fallen.
Our planet is a fallen planet and we have lost free will.
It is too late for us to decide to follow Gods instructions for what is good for us.
Adam is the father of the human race, for our planet.
Adam fell, and all his decedents, with him.
We can follow the example of Job and try to resist openly cursing God for the evil that has befallen us, be we really only have scarce ability to do even that.
Besides, the Satan myth is a metaphor to explain why God allows extreme evil to exist.
The real Satan is an agent of God to bring down the would-be rulers of the world, who would otherwise cause the world to not have a single person left alive.

How can you say we do not have free will? Can you not choose to do good or bad? We all have our battles each day. You are Adam/Eve in each step of your journey. Your beliefs are completely confusing to me. You argue that Adam cost us our free will, yet... you also call satan a metaphor. Would you care to explain which version of the "Good Book" you're reading from? Or at least give me an example of which doctrines you have chosen as truth. Clearly you're not standing on the entire bible for your statements.

Allow me to help you:
Free Will - the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies. (as defined by: Princeton Definition of Free Will )

You alone control what you do or do not do. You are not forced, you freely choose. To say otherwise is to speak without being aware of truth. You CAN go murder someone. That would be your choice. However, you would face consequences. But that doesn't eliminate the original ability to do so.

In conclusion, I would remind you: To completely have free will, the ability to choose... you must have both GOOD and BAD. Left, or right. It's very simple.

You can even prove this by responding or not responding. You can choose to, or not to. Free will. In fact, you can cuss me out... or you can reply intelligently. lol Choices everywhere. And they can be either good, or bad choices. That is your right. So you should learn to appreciate the necessary balance.

[edit on 16-5-2008 by EagleTalonZ]

reply to post by EagleTalonZ


The metaphor is what you were talking about.
I was raised to believe there was a counter-kingdom set up by the highest created being.
He was jealous of Jesus, or who he was before he was born as a Human.
God exalted Jesus to a higher position than Lucifer, because Jesus was not created, but begotten.
Lucifer tricked one third of the angels to follow him.
God did not kill Lucifer because He did not want the others to think He was unjust.
Lucifer went and lied to Eve and caused her to fall.
That is the story.(or part of it)
This is based on an old misunderstanding of the Book of Isaiah.
Isaiah was using a myth of his time that probably was an explanation of the shift of pole stars.
It was used to compare to the king of Babylon.
It had nothing to do with Satan.
The real Satan is like this story in 2Kings:
I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. And the Lord said, 'Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?'
One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, 'I will entice him.'
'By what means?' the Lord asked.
'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the Lord. 'Go and do it.'
So now the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you

Your definition of free will does not apply in this discussion.
This is not a case like a cop standing over you and watching who you vote for.
This is internal restraint.
Even Jesus said, "Why do you call me good? Only God is good."
If we are better than Jesus, we can choose to be good.
We are not, and God created the plan of salvation to deal with a problem that we can not deal with.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Your definition of free will does not apply in this discussion.
This is not a case like a cop standing over you and watching who you vote for.
This is internal restraint.
Even Jesus said, "Why do you call me good? Only God is good."
If we are better than Jesus, we can choose to be good.
We are not, and God created the plan of salvation to deal with a problem that we can not deal with.

I think you're still missing the point. And you're arguing over semantics. At least that is what I'm understanding. It sounds like you're saying we can't choose to be "good". Is that right?

We can choose to do good. Helping someone out, or demonstrating love.. is good. Love is another name for God. So when we do loving things, we are demonstrating Him.

To be honest, I really don't care what the bible says. The fact of the matter is that we can choose to do either good, or bad. But both are necessary in order to have free will. And my definition completely applies. And it's not saying anything about God, it's saying we have the ability to choose, without force or involvement from an external source. No one will force you to give money to a homeless man. And on the opposite, no one would always stop you from beating up or murdering the same homeless man. It's your choice. Your free will. You alone make that decision.

How can you be oblivious to the truth of what free will is? (no offense meant)

I look forward to your response.

reply to post by EagleTalonZ


Sorry to delay my response.
Some times I will discuss things with people who are expert in certain fields.
I have a friend who studies it, a lot.(free will)
He did not say I was wrong when I said we do not have to live in a world full of evil, in order to have the choice to do evil.
Eve had free will to choose evil, despite living in a sin free world.
Once her husband joined her, it was all over for those that are their descendants.
Cain and Able had a choice, to follow God, or not.
But they had sin, to deal with, no matter what that choice was.
We can choose to not be a son of Cain, in a spiritual way.
But even that desire, to do good, does not come from us, but from God.
If we reject God's calling, we are a son of Cain.

[edit on 18-5-2008 by jmdewey60]

jmdewey60

No need to apologize. I have a really busy schedule as well. lol

Regarding your last reply, I think I should point out something:

We cannot be perfect. What I'm saying is, we can't be "good" like God is. Because God is more than that. He is perfect. But we can be good by men's standards. We can choose to do nice things for people.

I really hate arguing these points based on biblical views, but it seems to be the area you are familiar with. I personally left the Christian faith in search of Truth, but I still know and remember the sermons, and messages.

When you do something kind for someone, it is in the image of Christ that you do it.

You mentioned the verse in where Jesus said, "Why do you call me good? Only God is good." I decided to look into this, and I feel you have misread the verse.

When the man came to Jesus, he said, "Good Master, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" to which Jesus replied, "Why do you call me good? Only God is good" Now, you can read this one way, or you can pause, and understand what He was truly saying in this verse. He wasn't denying His Deity. He was saying, "WHY do you call me good?" asking the man if he understood what he was really saying. And then to bring it really home He said, "Only God is good" (hence, He was saying, do you know who I AM?)

Anyway... that is kinda off topic, but I felt you might appreciate it. Lots of information regarding this if you're willing to look into it.

Now, back to the point:

No, we can't be perfect. But that isn't a choice. But we can be good. Or we can be bad. We can hurt, or we can help. We can be an example of love, or hurt people with attitudes of hatred. That is our choice as human beings.

You have a choice like I said before: You can choose to reply, or not to. That is an example of free will. The freedom of controlling your own will. Your own decisions. It's YOUR choice and no one else can make you do it, or keep you from it.

I look forward to your next reply...