An outside view of America


Whenever somebody said the words the “United States of America”, anywhere, in any country in the world, it conjured up the ideas of freedom, pursuit of happiness, justice for the oppressed and fair treatment to all.


Their have been many hiccups upon the historic paths of the United States of America, too many to mention, and of course that discussion is ongoing in ATS and family. This particular thread approaches the question concerning “Where does the United States now stand in the world theater and at home?”

I approach this question in light of discussions with various individuals I have come across in my travels as well as recent events over the past 10 years.

The decade involving the present administration in the United States has and will go down as one of the most precarious decades in US history. I believe you can compare this to the decade preceding the War of Independence. The War of Independence was a civil war fought between the 13 colonies and the British Empire.

The British Empire was an amazing sight. It, so far as I can tell, was the first Empire upon which the “sun never set”. They were the biggest, baddest, meanest war machine on the planet.

The 13 colonies had no organized military. When the time came, and it looked as if blood would spill, they put together a “ragtag” team of locals, lightly armed and with little formal training. We know this group of persons as the Militia. They fought a “guerilla warfare” technique much the same as the Viet Cong had used in that infamous war.

With the help of the French, the Dutch and Spain we defeated the British, the Germans (Hessian) and Native Americans winning the war.

This made Kings, Princes, and Generals, slaves, the oppressed and poor stand up and take notice. For the first time in history a Nation, wrested from the hands of the tyrannical British Crown was formed with the intent of Freedom, Justice, and the individual right to Pursue Happiness.

The documents that followed, namely, the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution of the United States of America as well as other documents formed a country that all men who thirsted for freedom desired for themselves as well as for their children.

Now, over two hundred years later, the tide has turned. The United States of America resembles the British Empire more then it resembles the beacon of freedom erected over two hundred years ago.

This fact gives most thinking men pause. The Founding Fathers warned against Empire building. They desired, and created a Republic, not an Empire.

With this in mind after the War of Independence it was shown that many who sided with the British and the German interests still resided in the United States. Blood runs deeper then water. I propose that a long term undermining of the United States of America began moments after the documents were sighed in Paris. Both German interests as well as British interests have propelled us to where we are now. Namely an Empire; struggling to hold onto world power while we crumbled from within as Rome had two thousand years ago.

If you look at the actions of our government the focus is on international interests. The focus is on Empire.

The Republic is crumbling with the weight of debt brought upon us by European bankers, the British Crown as well as a rag tag group of militia who, upon learning the history of the United States of America fight against the idea of Empire with the hope of freedom on fire in their hearts. (I refer to militias in other countries)

The Bush Family has blood ties to the British Crown. The British Crown has deep ties to Germany, including fascist Germany. Both have deep ties to the big banking interests all over the former British Empire. (This includes China. Hong Kong) This fact is laid bare if you look into the history of the families.

Many political scientists, university professors now seem to agree that the Empire of the USA may indeed be finished.

The Republic on the other hand still lives, but barely. Where and how will the republic survive?

We have created enemies worldwide. We are viewed as oppressors. There are more persons in prison in the USA then any other country in the world. We have abandoned the ideals of the Republic in wanton lust and allowed corporations to rise from within and they hold the governments within the USA in their pockets. Our infrastructure is crumbling. Our children face gangs, thugs on one hand and a corrupt police force, government and church on the other.

How can the Republic survive?

Who is it that has undermined us for over two hundred years? Who are they that pushed for Empire rather then the freedom of a Republic?

Wow. I finally decided to post something close to my heart which I have researched over the past year and no replies!

Nevertheless, I want to express why I called this a "Outside view".

As I have travelled many times I have been embraced by local people as an American or Canadian with love and respect. It has only been recently that (past 10 years) that I have been looked upon with a vile attitude.

I parked at a Costco in Saskatchewan and had a note pinned on my windsheild.."go home you American piece of "sh$#"

My old lady from Tulsa, Ok. was told true Canadians must diss Americans.
This was in Canada.

In Jamaica, where I came as a Canadian I had to listen to persons from all over the globe diss America. The American rep seems to be shot.

I, for one , want to defend her honour but sometimes, from the outside looking in, I see why America is no longer regarded as the home of the free, land of the brave. They, the people whom diss America have never mey the true American people, they only see the war machine.

I have children, some American, some not, whom I counsel upon the greatness of this country. The oldest ones do not see it. They see through the eyes of someone who has only lived 20 years or so.

To me, I believe America, at its roots as a freedom loving republic ,is a beacon of light to the world. As an Empire, I can see why persons are deathly afraid of America.

How is this going to change? How drastic are the measures that are needed?

Or am I blowing smoke up the proverbial ass?

First of all, the no response phenomenon: No Kidding! I swear, in threads I begin, I have more response posts than the rest of ATS combined. So I wonder... Am I just an idiot? Pondering simple-minded questions which the rest of the world snickers at when they read them? Are my solutions so 'out-there' that people just go, "huh?... idiot..." and move on? Or perhaps the opposite? Am I so brilliant that no one can do anything but sit back and pray that I decide to type another awe-inspiring word? Or any of a million explanations, none of which satisfy my 'true answer meter'. Anyway, so yes, pour out your heart and you can be sure, no one will give a rat's arse.

As I'm sure you're aware, there are many who see the empire vs. republic course of events and have ways of explaining it. I'm a David Icke guy myself. You, like him, speak of the blood lines of the bush family and others, reaching back to unsavory roots. I saw a site listed by you that has the word 'geneology' in it, but it didn't work? Can you help me find some legit documentation of these people's lineages? I've never seen a first hand source.

you might also want to state what statement each of your links support.

On the practical side of your questions (i.e. what do we do now?), my first serious action has been to attend the freedom march in Washington D.C. on July 12. It seems to me that this march is going to make or break the immediate movement. I encourage you and everyone who feels it's time to straighten out the US, to make the sacrifices necessary to be there. For me, my girl, and my baby boy it's runnin $1300. Ive only spent that much money on cars and homes in the past, but wouldn't you agree that the future of our nation is worth it? I dunno, I'm getting all disoriented just thinking about it and dealing with all the emotions is brings up... now is the time.
cheers
-v


[edit on 5/12/2008 by verbal kint]

[edit on 5/12/2008 by verbal kint]

Wow..are your eyes ever red!

Yes, I am aware of how apparent this seems yet if you mention this to Joe Blow on the street they have no clue.

I myself need to explore these channels more. Who is David Ike?
I clipped a quote from the page in question. It seemed to work.

Quote

"
Originating in Columbus, Ohio, the Bush family has developed into one of the most accomplished political families of the 20th century. Other important individuals in the Bush family tree include the Spencer family that produced Diana, Princess of Wales, which makes George W. Bush a 17th cousin to Prince William of Wales. The great great great grandmother of President George W. Bush, Harriet Smith (wife of Obidiah Newcomb Bush's wife) and her descendants, are distant cousins of John Kerry"

Nice thread, raven.

You claim there has been a plan since the late 1700s to bring the U.S. back under the interests of the crown. I am not so sure those external influences exist anymore, they would have to be fully internalized. The behavior of the U.S. most notably it's manipulations in the Middle East follow the same pattern of Britain's earlier manipulations. In regards to the oil and regime changes. I will give you that.

However, I submit to you that these interests are nothing more than a manifestation of human greed and ambition. They would occur regardless of the past. Historical plans and conspirators are therefore illusory factors.

Originally posted by SteveR
Nice thread, raven.

Thanks.

However, I submit to you that these interests are nothing more than a manifestation of human greed and ambition. They would occur regardless of the past. Historical plans and conspirators are therefore illusory factors.

Illusory factors? What for? To cover up something, as Hoover said, so utterly massive and unbelievable that it sets one in awe!

Give me some more info.

So, the assumption is man is "bent" toward a warrior mentality.

Another assumption...man is unaware of his or others motives and must make some sense out of apparent chaos.

Another assumption...man is, upon rare moments, able to overcome his "disabilities".

"The idea this is happening because of anything more than human nature is what's illusory."

I have often thought about this. Pure Darwin at work in our blood. Survival of the fittest. Lord of the Flies.


Do we embrace this as man or are we in denial as a species?

The question i'm seeing asked is "what is the nature of man? i.e. tunnel vision selfish, enlightened self interest, constrained evil, just nice fellows, etc..."
First off, I'll clear up the nature vs. nurture issue. Nature provides our general strengths and weaknesses of ability. These are not necessarily all discovered in life, however we tend to approach problems/questions with the simplest solution we can see/do. When employing a strength, the ease of success is pleasurable and thus we are more likely to employ that strength when seeking future solutions.
Nurture on the other hand provides our moment to moment, day to day behavior. Our habits, initiatives, and reactions. I put this information to you as a psychologist (MS) and a 2nd generation adoptee (my birth father was also adopted) who has found all living genetic relatives (plus two gens. of adoptive grandparents - interesting stuff).
As such, I think our social order's/society's values, passed on to each generation by parents, teachers, and at large, is the source of the "greed and ambition" which clearly marks the people of today. In contrast, it doesn't have to be that way and I believe a social-evolutionary change challenging those motivations/behaviors is in 'mid-swing' if you will.
Additionally, the broad historical stability and continuity of the world's governments and religions and the ways in which conflicts have acted to consolidate power and further that stibility and continuity, even across nations, does imply to me a guiding force from outside the government-military-religion-business-citizen social (and power) structure.

I hope I made a point somewhere in there... ?

Verbal knit, your comment on the “moment to moment” values….”Nurture on the other hand provides our moment to moment, day to day behavior. Our habits, initiatives, and reactions” …Nurture from birth to six I assume?


The burning question I have is their any moment to moment values that you have gotten from your birth Father? Or habits, day to day behavior, etc?


I ask this in light of the historical rape and pillage that occurs when one nation conquers another nation.

In a nutshell, if the “Mongols” went in to a country, conquered them, raped the women, would we see a change in the values, habits, moment to moment actions change simply because of the influx of some new genes in the pool?


If so then one could surmise that the very act of rape from the invaders may have strengthened those who where conquered, and this could change the survival of those who were conquered and may result in them once again conquering simply because of the “new genes in the pool”….Do you follow?

By the way I do not condone rape and pillage.