Open carry in PA

Just found this and thought it was worth sharing and a good read.

PA Open carry


AlBeMeT

PA is a big hunting state with a very large rural population. I do however think there are places that guns are better off left in the car.

This however does not excuse the officers rambo mentality. I think when all is said and done the law will back up the police. I think if the cops would have quietly walked up and asked for ID, run the names for priors and then just requested that the people put their guns in the car while in the restaurant this may have been avoided.

Once called to a scene they do have the right to act, it's how they act that matters though, which should be as professionals.

reply to post by jbondo


Actually, in this case, the officers in question explicitly broke the law by confiscating their weapons and detaining them.

This is outrageous. I am a local from the area and there are many rural communities here, that are into hunting. Whether it be a handgun or a rifle, it's in our blood to own and possess guns. Even as "hand-me-downs" from generation to generation. I have in my possession, guns that aren't registered to me personally, but are family heirlooms passed down. It's the way it is. I don't use them to "shoot up the town" but just to have, and some do hold sentimental value.

Although, I don't take them to dinner with me, it's still something that I hold near and dear to me. I know how to use them, and have them locked up. This area still has many traditions, and it is assuming that the person who called the local authorities doesn't know any better....A way of life for these folks. Dickson City isn't really a city, afterall.

A_L

Originally posted by jbondo
PA is a big hunting state with a very large rural population. I do however think there are places that guns are better off left in the car.

This however does not excuse the officers rambo mentality. I think when all is said and done the law will back up the police. I think if the cops would have quietly walked up and asked for ID, run the names for priors and then just requested that the people put their guns in the car while in the restaurant this may have been avoided.

Once called to a scene they do have the right to act, it's how they act that matters though, which should be as professionals.

The law, in Pa. allows open carry of a firearm without a permit. You can not just walk in and ask for ID without reasonable belief that an illegal activity is taking place. You are not allowed to run names for priors without reasonable cause. While you can certainly ask someone to put their weapon in their vehicle, the response of," No, I don't believe I will.", ends the interaction. The officers involved in this incident, illegally seized weapons, illegally detained citizens for no other reason than they felt like it, illegally arrested a citizen for attempting to inform them that their actions were illegal, and committed multiple crimes themselves. In the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, nothing at all done by these citizens was illegal. The police violated the rights of multiple citizens and are going to be held accountable.

And while you are entitled to believe that there are places where it is better to just leave your gun in the car, where exactly, would those places be? The restaurant these law abiding citizens were attempting to enjoy a meal at, with their spouses and children? How great would it have been, had a violent criminal, or group of criminals, entered the restaurant and began randomly shooting people, including women and children, while two dozen otherwise armed citizens cowered under a table because their weapons were locked in their cars so as not to offend some silly anti gun fanatic? Slim chance of that happening, right. I am sure the unarmed victim's in the malls, churches and schools that were very recently assaulted in exactly this way, thought the same.....

Better watch it in Philadelphia, which seems to have seperate gun laws then the rest of Pennsylvania.

My brother and three friends were driving in Philadelphia, one of them had a REGISTERED gun in the car, registered to someone in the car that is. They ended up in an attempted car-jacking, and multiple rounds were shot into the car. My brother received multiple facial fractures, broken teeth, broken nose, concussion, etc.. from being beat with the end of a hand gun. He died a few days later, cause of death is still pending. Two other people were in the car, one was shot in the stomach who is now still in the hospital paralyzed from the waist down. The third person who had the gun, pulled it out, and that is the sole reason any of them are even alive right now. Without the robbers seeing that gun, they would have just shot up everyone in the car instead of fleeing once the weapon was shown.

Now, they did not even fire the weapon since the suspects were then fleeing, but because there was a gun in the car, they threw my brother and his friend in JAIL on FELONY gun charges, as well as picking them as the suspected shooters. They denied him medical treatment, and we had to bail him out a day and a half later. They said they were pressing charges due to the gun being in the car. My brother died two days after being released from jail. He went to his doctor the first day, and the day he died as the day he was supposed to go to the hospital to get facial X-Rays.

This just goes to show how much BS is involved with gun laws. My brother would be alive right now if they diddn't just throw him in jail, as well as telling him his friend that he supposedly shot is now dead. So they told him he killed his friend, when the gun that was in the car was never even shot. We believe his death was due to the medication he was on coupled with a brain injury - the doctor prescribed him quite heavy narcotics (stronger then the 30mg Oxycodone he was used to taking along with a very high amount of Xanax, both Rx'ed, he died the next day)

So in Philadelphia, if you even have a gun in your car that is registered to YOU - then you will be facing FELONY GUN CHARGES. Regardless that the gun saved your life, as well as other peoples lives and you did not even fire it in a life and death situation. How fair is that? Exactly.

Just wanted to show you how messed up and different the gun laws can vary from city to city even though it is still in Pennsylvania.

FACTS ABOUT OPEN CARRY
Yes, open carry IS legal in Pennsylvania.
In Pennsylvania, persons who are not prohibited by law from owning firearms may openly carry a handgun in plain sight with no license except in vehicles, cities of the first class (Philadelphia), and where prohibited specifically by statute. Ref: 18 PACS §6106, §6107, §6108
There are also two cases that specifically state that a person may carry a firearm openly:
Commonwealth v. Ortiz: www.tinyurl.com/2wtovz
Commonwealth v. Hawkins: www.tinyurl.com/346wwr

Open carry (handgun) in a vehicle requires a valid PA LTCF or a carry license from ANY other state.

Open carry in Philadelphia requires a valid PA LTCF or a reciprocal state’s carry license.

You do not need to be a resident of PA to open carry

Cities, towns, and municipalities are prohibited by PA law from enacting laws prohibiting concealed or open carry. Ref: 18 PACS §6120

There is no stipulation in law that a PA LTCF holder must carry concealed. Furthermore, lawful open carry of a firearm is NOT grounds for revocation of a PA LTCF.

Brandishing & Disturbing the Peace: There is no “brandishing” or “disturbing the peace” law in PA. A person who shows or indicates that they have a gun with the intent to intimidate another person can be charged with various forms of assault, including Terroristic Threats. Mere open carry of a handgun, lacking any other threatening behavior or verbal threat, is not assault.

Disorderly Conduct & Terroristic Threats: Open carry, in a holster, lacking any other threatening behavior by the person carrying, does not meet the statutory conditions of Disorderly Conduct or Terroristic Threats since open carry is a legitimate exercise of a Pennsylvanian's rights, such conduct is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition that serves no legitimate purpose of the actor.

LTCF: License To Carry Firearm

Originally posted by BmanInMifCo
FACTS ABOUT OPEN CARRY
Yes, open carry IS legal in Pennsylvania.
In Pennsylvania, persons who are not prohibited by law from owning firearms may openly carry a handgun in plain sight with no license except in vehicles, cities of the first class (Philadelphia), and where prohibited specifically by statute. Ref: 18 PACS §6106, §6107, §6108
There are also two cases that specifically state that a person may carry a firearm openly:
Commonwealth v. Ortiz: www.tinyurl.com/2wtovz
Commonwealth v. Hawkins: www.tinyurl.com/346wwr

Wow just wow Pennsylvania seems to be better than Texas in referance to gun laws.

AlBeMeT

It looks like from what I have been reading on this, that these men/woman have a very good civil rights case.
I wonder if the NRA is involved in this.


AlBeMeT

Originally posted by Headcaseinpa

The law, in Pa. allows open carry of a firearm without a permit. You can not just walk in and ask for ID without reasonable belief that an illegal activity is taking place. You are not allowed to run names for priors without reasonable cause. While you can certainly ask someone to put their weapon in their vehicle, the response of," No, I don't believe I will.", ends the interaction. The officers involved in this incident, illegally seized weapons, illegally detained citizens for no other reason than they felt like it, illegally arrested a citizen for attempting to inform them that their actions were illegal, and committed multiple crimes themselves. In the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, nothing at all done by these citizens was illegal. The police violated the rights of multiple citizens and are going to be held accountable.

And while you are entitled to believe that there are places where it is better to just leave your gun in the car, where exactly, would those places be? The restaurant these law abiding citizens were attempting to enjoy a meal at, with their spouses and children? How great would it have been, had a violent criminal, or group of criminals, entered the restaurant and began randomly shooting people, including women and children, while two dozen otherwise armed citizens cowered under a table because their weapons were locked in their cars so as not to offend some silly anti gun fanatic? Slim chance of that happening, right. I am sure the unarmed victim's in the malls, churches and schools that were very recently assaulted in exactly this way, thought the same.....

Dude, the police were called to the scene by people that were in fact frightened by the weapons. That is "cause" or "reasonable belief" as you put it my friend, furthermore it entitles the police to do what they have to within reason to protect not only themselves but the public. To say they didn't have a right to do what they did is silly. Police can't just assume who is going to be violent and who isn't. They have to treat every gun interaction with assumed intent to use whether they believe it will happen or not. In your scenario any yahoo has the right to interact with police with their hand on their gun. What if one of these people was on medication and didn't take it that day? What if one of them just got plain irritated and just happen to be not all that intelligent? (which I wonder in this case). In your world the police would just ride around and eat donuts all day. If I were a cop and I were called to a scene where I had to interact with people carrying, you can bet your a$$ that I would first disarm them and second run their ID. I would them ask them to please put their guns in the car so as to avoid other patrons (who have just as much right to feel safe) feeling uneasy. If you think that's unreasonable then you probably also think that when stopped in your car that they have no right to ask for your license either. Misinterpreting the law doesn't make it right.

Regarding the right to carry in a restaurant in rural PA, yea fine, you have that right but give me a break! What are the odds of there being trouble and if there was, how do we know you wont make it worse with your gun? I grew up in rural PA in heavy hunting country. I spent many years in the woods hunting and fishing and at no time did I feel the need to walk into Perkins carrying a gun! That's just paranoia or gunslinger complex in either case I wouldn't want to be around either. For goodness sake, some of you act like it's South Chicago or Detroit.

I wasn't there and maybe the police did act irrationally but better safe than sorry. The law will prove if needed that these cops did have the right to at least temporarily disarm and ask for ID, no matter how you want to twist the way the law was written.

Just for the record, Dickson City is a suburb of Scranton and not rural. However, it's not uncommon for "country folk" to come into the big city - lol

I lived in PA for half my life and NEVER saw an open gun except on law enforcement. I was not aware PA was an "open carry " state. I'm sure I'm not the only one that was unaware.

I would have reacted he same way the caller did. I would have been very concerned and would have called 911 too.

reply to post by jbondo


Being afraid of anything that is legal to own IS NOT a valid reason. No threat was made to the poor old frightened person. There is NO PROBABLE CAUSE here. Its just Ricky Rondell and his puppet storm troopers being the jackbooted thugs they realy are. The morons in the major population areas keep voting to keep this idiot in office because he has so many crazy social programs,and the rural folks get screwed. I hope this civil rights suit and violation of constitutional law screws Lakawanna and those clown lawthugs in Dickson City that perpetrated this.

Zindo


[edit on 5/15/2008 by ZindoDoone]

Originally posted by AlBeMet


Wow just wow Pennsylvania seems to be better than Texas in referance to gun laws.

AlBeMeT

Texas is a good pro-gun state but not nearly the best. According to the Brady people Texas ranks 29th on the "evil states" list. Brady Rankings

I was having a conversation with some people about Vermonts gun friendly atmosphere and was wondering if the open carry folk can expect to be harassed every 10 minutes. One of the Vermonters told me to take my "redneck ass" to Texas if I wanted to be around guns so badly. When I told him Texas gun law was more restrictive than Vermonts per the Brady Campaign he told me to go "F" myself.

They have unrestrictive gun laws ,then they elect Bernie Sanders to represent them..Very confusing. I never have understood this,,but I'm from Kansas and they aren't any better off there. I now live in 'The Peoples Republic Of Connecticut"!! I'm screwed!!!LOL
Zindo

reply to post by ZindoDoone


I feel for you man. I'm finally escaping CT at the end of the month and I couldn't be happier. First thing I'm doing in my new state is open carrying down to the gun shop and buying the AK-47 CT wont' allow.

Originally posted by jbondo

Regarding the right to carry in a restaurant in rural PA, yea fine, you have that right but give me a break! What are the odds of there being trouble and if there was, how do we know you wont make it worse with your gun? I grew up in rural PA in heavy hunting country. I spent many years in the woods hunting and fishing and at no time did I feel the need to walk into Perkins carrying a gun! That's just paranoia or gunslinger complex in either case I wouldn't want to be around either. For goodness sake, some of you act like it's South Chicago or Detroit.

I wasn't there and maybe the police did act irrationally but better safe than sorry. The law will prove if needed that these cops did have the right to at least temporarily disarm and ask for ID, no matter how you want to twist the way the law was written.

Here read this very interesting.

Contacted by The Times-Tribune, Lackawanna County District Attorney Andy Jarbola declined to comment on this specific case, but said people have a right to openly carry a weapon without having to show identification or a permit.

“Police can ask, but if they don’t want to give it, they don’t have to,” he said. “It’s going to be surprising to the public, but that’s the current state of law.”

Link to news paper

AlBeMeT

OK, fine! Lets just make it like the old west where everyone carries and has no responsibility. Furthermore, lets handcuff the police no matter the situation. Someday a nut will shoot a cop in a similar situation and then see how long PA maintains this law.

Furthermore, I'm not arguing the law, I'm arguing the situation of maintaining a secure area on a call.

I don't care how corrupt that county is, the mentality that being shoveled here is as wrong as cops going overboard.

I still say that if I were a cop going to a call specifically about people with guns in a public restaurant I'm going to secure the area and I don't care who's feelings get hurt or whether they're going to sue me.

Reply to Post by jbondo:




Dude, the police were called to the scene by people that were in fact frightened by the weapons. That is "cause" or "reasonable belief" as you put it my friend, furthermore it entitles the police to do what they have to within reason to protect not only themselves but the public.
*Snip* Secondly, being frightened by someone exercising their right is not now, nor should it ever be probable cause to stop a right from being exercised. If you or anyone else is frightened by something completely legal, you have the absolute right to leave. You have the right to complain. But you do not have the right to have your fear dictate what I, or anyone else gets to do. A frightened person does not give the police the right to do anything except tell that person to get a grip on themselves as the thing that they fear is completely legal and outside their scope of action.
To say they didn't have a right to do what they did is silly. Police can't just assume who is going to be violent and who isn't. They have to treat every gun interaction with assumed intent to use whether they believe it will happen or not.
*Snip* It is not silly, it is factual, unlike your ridiculous replies. There is no assumption to be made because there is no illegal activity occurring. Law abiding citizens are sitting with their wives and children eating. No one was running around waving a weapon. No one was even referring to their weapon. They happened to be wearing their self-defense weapons while enjoying a night out. The police had no cause to do anything beyond visually observing that nothing was happening. Period.

In your scenario any yahoo has the right to interact with police with their hand on their gun.
Placing your hand on your weapon while interacting with anyone, especially police, could be construed as an aggressive act and you would be lucky to not get shot, *Snip*.

What if one of these people was on medication and didn't take it that day?
My guess is they wouldn't have a License To Carry Firearms if they had a condition that required medication to keep them sane.

What if one of them just got plain irritated and just happen to be not all that intelligent? (which I wonder in this case).
*Snip* The facts are that LTCF holders are much less likely than average to commit a crime. I wonder if you have ever taken a moment to look up a fact in your entire life, or if you just wait for the aliens to download the proper thoughts for you...


CONTINUED NEXT POST

[edit on 15-5-2008 by Headcaseinpa]

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[edit on 15-5-2008 by MemoryShock]

In your world the police would just ride around and eat donuts all day.
*Snip*

If I were a cop and I were called to a scene where I had to interact with people carrying, you can bet your a$$ that I would first disarm them and second run their ID.
Then you would be guilty of theft, receiving stolen property, and illegal search, improper detention, and, well, just being *Snip*


I would them ask them to please put their guns in the car so as to avoid other patrons (who have just as much right to feel safe) feeling uneasy.
You would have every right to ask them to put their weapons in their vehicles, just as they would have every right to tell you no. There is no "right to feel safe", *Snip*.

If you think that's unreasonable then you probably also think that when stopped in your car that they have no right to ask for your license either.
I don't see what one thing has to do with the other. You need a license to drive a car. You do not need a license to carry a weapon openly where these people were doing it.

Misinterpreting the law doesn't make it right.
Truer words were never spoken. You have been doing an incredible job of showing your ignorance of the law. And just to keep the facts straight, I am not interpretting anything, these laws have been interpretted by a tiny group known as the Pennsylvania Supreme Court, perhaps you've heard of them?


Regarding the right to carry in a restaurant in rural PA, yea fine, you have that right but give me a break! What are the odds of there being trouble and if there was, how do we know you wont make it worse with your gun?
To answer the first part, of your question, pretty slim I guess, but they were the same odds every single person who has been killed in a public place at random faced before they got killed. I don't know about you, but I would rather be prepared to defend myself and my family than die because some moron, like *Snip*, didn't believe I should be able to. To answer the second part, you don't know I guess. But the odds of the criminal killing anyone other than the first victim, go down dramatically when an armed patron is present. He can kill unmolested, or he can be opposed by armed force, which odds do you favor?
I grew up in rural PA in heavy hunting country. I spent many years in the woods hunting and fishing and at no time did I feel the need to walk into Perkins carrying a gun!
That is wonderful for you. I, on the other hand, feel it is irresponsible to go about your daily life unable to defend yourself. And having the irrational belief that the police will be able to instantly sense when you need them and teleport directly to your location, to intercede before you can be violently assualted is, well, moronic.

That's just paranoia or gunslinger complex in either case I wouldn't want to be around either. For goodness sake, some of you act like it's South Chicago or Detroit.
It is not paranoia or a gunslinger complex, it is taking responsibility for your own safety. I was unaware that only Detroit and Chicago had violent crimes perpetrated against their citizens. In my quaint little burg, in what you call rural Pa., our mayor was beaten within an inch of his life by a neighbors kid, for attempting to break up a fight. Police caught the perp, a year and a half later.

I wasn't there and maybe the police did act irrationally but better safe than sorry. The law will prove if needed that these cops did have the right to at least temporarily disarm and ask for ID, no matter how you want to twist the way the law was written.
No, sorry, it is not better safe than sorry. Cops don't get to trample your rights because they feel like it, dumbass. And the law will and has proven that these or any police officers can not forcibly disarm, or forcibly check ID. They can ask, but you can refuse, and they can't do *Snip* about it.

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[edit on 15-5-2008 by MemoryShock]

reply to post by Headcaseinpa


Well, I can see you've spun my words around and assumed my thoughts to fit your needs here.

Carrying a gun doesn't mean you are trained or prepared to make the right choices in life and death situations. I'm not saying you would be dangerous but IMO a lot of average joe's are.

Regarding the law, it's not just the words on the page but how they are interpreted as well as how they relate to associated para's and laws.

Although I could go on and correct where you twisted my words, I've said my peace and have no intent on changing your mind.

Be Well & God Bless.