reply to post by intrepid
I would first and foremost wish to thank Intrepid. Not only did he, probably through frustration make an innocent remark that inspired this debate,
but his handling of the Secret Societies forum in an unbiased way seriously must be commemorated. This needs to be said, as the SS forum is a near
anarchy zone on ATS that defies the rules, sets its own boundaries and is the closest thing to a online blood bath if there ever was one. But
Intrepid stands his ground. Keeps order. Is an icon of unbiased moderating discipline. Even when I am the target of said discipline, I cannot deny
if Intrepid comes down on ME
I must be doing something wrong. Seriously Intrepid, on behalf of all Masons on ATS, I thank you.
Amaterasu, I welcome you to this thread, this debate, in the first (that I know of) debate officially between a Free and Accepted Mason and someone
who opposes the Craft. May the formality of this debate be a shining example of civilized debate between two highly differing mindsets and
To officially start, let me describe my self. I am a 21 year old lover of history. In particular, I study the rise and fall of ancient northern
European civilizations. I am also an avid studier of economics and politics, especially the interactions between the two.
I was a diehard conspiracy theorist when I joined ATS.. In fact, I used to warn close friends of impending nuclear attacks, the threats from
subversive groups like the Freemasons and the Illuminati.
I watched the videos on Youtube, I Googled every major Masonic outer, I read countless books by Freemasons that outed the Craft as leading them from
the path of God and into a path of darkness and evil.
Unlike many who read and believe what I once did.. I decided there is only one way to prove a conspiracy.
And infiltrate I did.
I am now an officer of my Masonic Blue Lodge, I am a 32º Mason of the Miami Valley, and I sit on every single major committee in our lodge, which is
a prominent lodge in my area. At my age, in my area, my accomplishments are unmatched. If there where a secret order of Masons that ran the world
and looked for the most ambitious of Masons to assist them, I would surely be picked, no?
But i have not seen any subversive planning, no world domination.
Instead, what I have seen is something that could bring a tear to even the hardest man's eye. I see men from all walks of life coming together from
all races and theological origins and giving all they can to the community. They selflessly donate 100% of proceeds from drives to our charities and
pick up the tab between active members to make sure our lodge stays afloat.
They are the kindest men I have ever met. I cannot quote a link, I cannot post a Youtube video.. and I understand this, and I know it's hardly
proof. But take it from me as best you can, Masonry is not, cannot take over the world. But if we could, if we did, the world would be a much, much
And here is what I understand, being a once outsider looking in, to an insider looking out:
We are a "private" group. We do not publicly post our rituals, our modes of recognition. There is a cloud of mystery, of suspicion and even hate
that surrounds our organization. And an organization as prominent as we, you would think we would refute such barbaric claims. But we don't,
because we don't care.
We really don't.
It is NOT our job to win over the cowards and the skeptics, it is our job to take those who risk everything, who walk blind folded
unknown and putting all of their trust into complete strangers. To take said individuals and provide them with a society that will better them.
And because of this skepticism as surrounded us, unjustly, but in a way expected.
Masonry is a product of the Enlightenment ideologies, freedom for all, good will unto men.
Freemasonry for the longest time (the first actually) to allow Catholics and Protestants to sit in a bar together in Ireland.
And in many other places..
It is Deistic in nature, believe in a God of your choosing, so long as you bind your self to your faith, and you swear upon it, Masonry asks no
It is amazing how unheard of that is even today in the most liberal societies..
And that is saddening..
It is private in nature, we hold fast to traditions. In open lodge we still have a man who stands outside the door with a dull and (in my lodges
case) rusting sword. Will it stop anyone? No. We have had an entire family walk into an open lodge because our Tyler was deaf and couldn't hear
them walk up behind him.
It's symbolic, as is our entire privacy. To an extent.
We do hold our rights to privacy, as any one can, we are not a publicly traded entity, we are a private institution and keep our internal business to
Is that a crime?
But to further the prospective,
Masonry is used as a scapegoat in so many ways. First off, our world is changing at an ever increasing pace. Sometimes it is amazing to look back a
year or two and think "oh my god, the world has changed so much..."
What causes this change? What morphs our very ideal reality, what brings in new ideas, moves jobs over seas and causes irrational leaders to act
entirely out of bounds as far as what we see to be logical? Why do we fight wars for oil, why do we suffer inflation, why do world leaders attack
each other? Why does the Media lie to us? Why do we accept globalism, why do we plan for martial law and our politicians succumb to the worst
In a world ever evolving, not even giving us a chance to anchor down and create our own normality, we see change around every corner, and seek an
And coupled with an age of information exploitation, where anything and everything can be made into a money making website or video, we wonder about
organizations that escape this.
So we see Masonry, silent, lurking, private. We see some of the world's influential people as members and we see as far back as 300 years some of
even thens most influential people involved, we come to quick and irrational conclusions.
Never have I seen an organization that so selfishly donated all they could. A place where 15 guys will shoulder the burden of holding an entire lodge
of 400+ on their shoulders, do the initiations and inspections all because it is something they love, something they believe in and something they
would die for.
Yes, if Masonry could, it would rule the world so much better. But alas, we cannot, we lost our power, our influence, and instead of friends and
allies, people think of us as a subversive enemy working for a deity of evil nature inspired by illogical and hateful ideologies.
They claim we seek to take over the world, and the claim we seek to take away freedoms..
But when it comes down to it.. Freemasonry played a pivotal role in giving America and the entire Western world the freedoms we hold dear, Masonic
ideologies like Freedom of Speech, Democracy, Freedom of Religion, and Freedom to defend ones self from Tyranny...
I feel the world should be grateful for our services, not fear us. and it is OUR fault, we do not publicly display what we do.
But then again, Christ himself told us that we should preform kindness and give as much as we can to charity without seeking public recognition.
And this Masonry does.
All I can ask my opponent is this:
Question 1. What has Freemasonry done publicly that even appeared subversive and dangerous in nature?
And I will address this, as an example of misleading facts, blatent lies and completely wrong information:
Ford (Honorary Mason)
Bush Sr (Mason) Mega-escalation of freedom-robbing
Only Ford was a Freemason. Reagan, Bush Sr *and Jr*, Clinton where/are NOT Freemasons.
No known world leader currently is a Freemason.
Just an example of unresearched facts presented as facts without credible resources. We take GREAT pride in US Presidents that where Freemasons.. or
any other exceptional person (Like Brad Paisley who's music kicks butt)
I hope this thread opens the eyes of those who read it and come to understand we only seek personal and communal development. We don't have the
power or the desire to "run the world" or control lives, it contradicts our philosophies (see 1776 Libertarianism) and our own moral compasses.
And again, I thank Intrepid for taking time out of his busy schedule to set this debate up, and my opponent for partaking in this debate as well.