We look out upon our world and see things that don't add up. Many of us shrug them off, but some few are moved to ask WHY.
Before I proceed, I would like to establish a term I will use and its definition.
We will start by defining "Bad Guy." Bad Guy is anyone who will or may hold an individual to a contract which the individual did not accept by
signature with full knowledge of the ramifications, or to a treaty entered into which was on the individual's "behalf" but was not in the common
knowledge, and to which the individual never agreed.
Furthermore, Bag Guy may choose to deliberately set up conditions of starvation, illness, poison, abuse, unjust imprisonment, or makes any moves to
undermine the Constitution and Bill of Rights within the US of A (amongst other countries' accepted documents).
The objective then is to establish that individuals who have taken any of these steps are of a substantially high percentage Masons.
I also wish to suggest that although there are people who have done this that are not identified as a Mason today, that the Masons have both access to
and influence on those who do. I would also suggest that there is a high amount of commingling of people who promote a New World Order (counter to US
Constitutional Sovereignty) who belong to other but similar groups to Masonry, including Skull & Bones, Bilderberg Group, Trilateral Commission,
Bohemian Club, Rhodes Scholars, Council on Foreign Relations, and others.
I point this out because it has been suggested in many places that the whole of these societies is given the name, Illuminati, suggesting similar
goals in all groups if not identical ones. In fact, it might be reasonable to believe that many a Mason has no clue what the core workings look like,
but that there is a core influencing our government path away from freedom, away from health, away from peace. Away from all principles under which
the US of A says it is governed by in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
So the direct membership of these Bad Guys is not required to reflect the influence of certain Masons.
Who amongst us can we say has been a Bad Guy? Surely any who supported the "Patriot" Act would be Bad Guys, since that one document did more to
undermine the principles.
Although the (unelected) President is not listed as a Mason, we have ample reason to suspect the influence of the Masonic hand in his action. Both
his grandfather, father and several in-laws were/are Masons. We might also suggest that his lack of such official status, yet membership in Skull &
Bones and Bohemian Club, along with participation in events at Bohemian Grove, give his adamant support of the "Patriot" Act (he's a Bad Guy) an
appearance of being influenced by, again, certain Masonic influence.
The War on Drugs, perhaps the effort that singularly did the most to strip us of freedom (freedom to alter one's consciousness, freedom from property
seizure without due process) begun during Nixon's Presidency, was continued and escalated in the terms of:
Ford (Honorary Mason)
Reagan (Mason)
Bush Sr (Mason) Mega-escalation of freedom-robbing
Clinton (Mason)
So here must be Bad Guys. Carter, the only President that even brought up the concept of legalizing marijuana, was the noted exception to the Masonic
line up since Nixon, who, himself, was not a Mason. And, of course, Bush Jr.
It would seem that some Masons support an overarching Illuminati plot to condition us into accepting slavery, command, and imprisonment.
Though it is impossible to provide incontrovertible evidence of a Mason or group of Masons is involved with tearing down the principles of the US of
A, simply by virtue of the fact that any such action was/is/will be performed in secret.
This does not mean that we cannot see evidence that some Masons have a hand in what the Illuminati groups are doing. By inference and many sources
making connections, and by examining what such things as the Codex Alimentarius, adopted by the WHO and the FAO (part of the globalization efforts),
mean for us as a race, and given that these Masonic Presidents (elected or otherwise) persist in supporting these goals brings one to conclude that,
indeed, Masons are involved in the efforts to bring misery and death to untold billions upon this planet.
In conclusion, I will say that the average Mason is likely to have no knowledge of what the very top players in the organization are doing, and truly
believe their mission is to ease the lives of others.
It is only a small bloodline group that are of any great Gad Guy influence.
Challenge match: Amaterasu vs Rockpuck- It's a Masons World., page 1
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reply posted on 2-5-2008 @ 10:44 PM by Rockpuck
reply to post by intrepid
I would first and foremost wish to thank Intrepid. Not only did he, probably through frustration make an innocent remark that inspired this debate, but his handling of the Secret Societies forum in an unbiased way seriously must be commemorated. This needs to be said, as the SS forum is a near anarchy zone on ATS that defies the rules, sets its own boundaries and is the closest thing to a online blood bath if there ever was one. But Intrepid stands his ground. Keeps order. Is an icon of unbiased moderating discipline. Even when I am the target of said discipline, I cannot deny if Intrepid comes down on ME I must be doing something wrong. Seriously Intrepid, on behalf of all Masons on ATS, I thank you.
Amaterasu, I welcome you to this thread, this debate, in the first (that I know of) debate officially between a Free and Accepted Mason and someone who opposes the Craft. May the formality of this debate be a shining example of civilized debate between two highly differing mindsets and ideologies.
To officially start, let me describe my self. I am a 21 year old lover of history. In particular, I study the rise and fall of ancient northern European civilizations. I am also an avid studier of economics and politics, especially the interactions between the two.
I was a diehard conspiracy theorist when I joined ATS.. In fact, I used to warn close friends of impending nuclear attacks, the threats from subversive groups like the Freemasons and the Illuminati.
I watched the videos on Youtube, I Googled every major Masonic outer, I read countless books by Freemasons that outed the Craft as leading them from the path of God and into a path of darkness and evil.
Unlike many who read and believe what I once did.. I decided there is only one way to prove a conspiracy.
Infiltrate.
And infiltrate I did.
I am now an officer of my Masonic Blue Lodge, I am a 32º Mason of the Miami Valley, and I sit on every single major committee in our lodge, which is a prominent lodge in my area. At my age, in my area, my accomplishments are unmatched. If there where a secret order of Masons that ran the world and looked for the most ambitious of Masons to assist them, I would surely be picked, no?
But i have not seen any subversive planning, no world domination.
No,
Instead, what I have seen is something that could bring a tear to even the hardest man's eye. I see men from all walks of life coming together from all races and theological origins and giving all they can to the community. They selflessly donate 100% of proceeds from drives to our charities and pick up the tab between active members to make sure our lodge stays afloat.
They are the kindest men I have ever met. I cannot quote a link, I cannot post a Youtube video.. and I understand this, and I know it's hardly proof. But take it from me as best you can, Masonry is not, cannot take over the world. But if we could, if we did, the world would be a much, much better place....
And here is what I understand, being a once outsider looking in, to an insider looking out:
We are a "private" group. We do not publicly post our rituals, our modes of recognition. There is a cloud of mystery, of suspicion and even hate that surrounds our organization. And an organization as prominent as we, you would think we would refute such barbaric claims. But we don't, because we don't care.
We really don't.
It is NOT our job to win over the cowards and the skeptics, it is our job to take those who risk everything, who walk blind folded into the unknown and putting all of their trust into complete strangers. To take said individuals and provide them with a society that will better them.
And because of this skepticism as surrounded us, unjustly, but in a way expected.
Masonry is a product of the Enlightenment ideologies, freedom for all, good will unto men.
Freemasonry for the longest time (the first actually) to allow Catholics and Protestants to sit in a bar together in Ireland.
And in many other places..
It is Deistic in nature, believe in a God of your choosing, so long as you bind your self to your faith, and you swear upon it, Masonry asks no further questions.
It is amazing how unheard of that is even today in the most liberal societies..
And that is saddening..
It is private in nature, we hold fast to traditions. In open lodge we still have a man who stands outside the door with a dull and (in my lodges case) rusting sword. Will it stop anyone? No. We have had an entire family walk into an open lodge because our Tyler was deaf and couldn't hear them walk up behind him.
It's symbolic, as is our entire privacy. To an extent.
We do hold our rights to privacy, as any one can, we are not a publicly traded entity, we are a private institution and keep our internal business to our selves.
Is that a crime?
But to further the prospective,
Masonry is used as a scapegoat in so many ways. First off, our world is changing at an ever increasing pace. Sometimes it is amazing to look back a year or two and think "oh my god, the world has changed so much..."
What causes this change? What morphs our very ideal reality, what brings in new ideas, moves jobs over seas and causes irrational leaders to act entirely out of bounds as far as what we see to be logical? Why do we fight wars for oil, why do we suffer inflation, why do world leaders attack each other? Why does the Media lie to us? Why do we accept globalism, why do we plan for martial law and our politicians succumb to the worst possible corruption?
In a world ever evolving, not even giving us a chance to anchor down and create our own normality, we see change around every corner, and seek an explanation.
And coupled with an age of information exploitation, where anything and everything can be made into a money making website or video, we wonder about organizations that escape this.
So we see Masonry, silent, lurking, private. We see some of the world's influential people as members and we see as far back as 300 years some of even thens most influential people involved, we come to quick and irrational conclusions.
Never have I seen an organization that so selfishly donated all they could. A place where 15 guys will shoulder the burden of holding an entire lodge of 400+ on their shoulders, do the initiations and inspections all because it is something they love, something they believe in and something they would die for.
Yes, if Masonry could, it would rule the world so much better. But alas, we cannot, we lost our power, our influence, and instead of friends and allies, people think of us as a subversive enemy working for a deity of evil nature inspired by illogical and hateful ideologies.
They claim we seek to take over the world, and the claim we seek to take away freedoms..
But when it comes down to it.. Freemasonry played a pivotal role in giving America and the entire Western world the freedoms we hold dear, Masonic ideologies like Freedom of Speech, Democracy, Freedom of Religion, and Freedom to defend ones self from Tyranny...
I feel the world should be grateful for our services, not fear us. and it is OUR fault, we do not publicly display what we do.
But then again, Christ himself told us that we should preform kindness and give as much as we can to charity without seeking public recognition.
And this Masonry does.
All I can ask my opponent is this:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question 1. What has Freemasonry done publicly that even appeared subversive and dangerous in nature?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I will address this, as an example of misleading facts, blatent lies and completely wrong information:
Only Ford was a Freemason. Reagan, Bush Sr *and Jr*, Clinton where/are NOT Freemasons.
No known world leader currently is a Freemason.
Just an example of unresearched facts presented as facts without credible resources. We take GREAT pride in US Presidents that where Freemasons.. or any other exceptional person (Like Brad Paisley who's music kicks butt)
I hope this thread opens the eyes of those who read it and come to understand we only seek personal and communal development. We don't have the power or the desire to "run the world" or control lives, it contradicts our philosophies (see 1776 Libertarianism) and our own moral compasses.
And again, I thank Intrepid for taking time out of his busy schedule to set this debate up, and my opponent for partaking in this debate as well.
I would first and foremost wish to thank Intrepid. Not only did he, probably through frustration make an innocent remark that inspired this debate, but his handling of the Secret Societies forum in an unbiased way seriously must be commemorated. This needs to be said, as the SS forum is a near anarchy zone on ATS that defies the rules, sets its own boundaries and is the closest thing to a online blood bath if there ever was one. But Intrepid stands his ground. Keeps order. Is an icon of unbiased moderating discipline. Even when I am the target of said discipline, I cannot deny if Intrepid comes down on ME I must be doing something wrong. Seriously Intrepid, on behalf of all Masons on ATS, I thank you.
Amaterasu, I welcome you to this thread, this debate, in the first (that I know of) debate officially between a Free and Accepted Mason and someone who opposes the Craft. May the formality of this debate be a shining example of civilized debate between two highly differing mindsets and ideologies.
To officially start, let me describe my self. I am a 21 year old lover of history. In particular, I study the rise and fall of ancient northern European civilizations. I am also an avid studier of economics and politics, especially the interactions between the two.
I was a diehard conspiracy theorist when I joined ATS.. In fact, I used to warn close friends of impending nuclear attacks, the threats from subversive groups like the Freemasons and the Illuminati.
I watched the videos on Youtube, I Googled every major Masonic outer, I read countless books by Freemasons that outed the Craft as leading them from the path of God and into a path of darkness and evil.
Unlike many who read and believe what I once did.. I decided there is only one way to prove a conspiracy.
Infiltrate.
And infiltrate I did.
I am now an officer of my Masonic Blue Lodge, I am a 32º Mason of the Miami Valley, and I sit on every single major committee in our lodge, which is a prominent lodge in my area. At my age, in my area, my accomplishments are unmatched. If there where a secret order of Masons that ran the world and looked for the most ambitious of Masons to assist them, I would surely be picked, no?
But i have not seen any subversive planning, no world domination.
No,
Instead, what I have seen is something that could bring a tear to even the hardest man's eye. I see men from all walks of life coming together from all races and theological origins and giving all they can to the community. They selflessly donate 100% of proceeds from drives to our charities and pick up the tab between active members to make sure our lodge stays afloat.
They are the kindest men I have ever met. I cannot quote a link, I cannot post a Youtube video.. and I understand this, and I know it's hardly proof. But take it from me as best you can, Masonry is not, cannot take over the world. But if we could, if we did, the world would be a much, much better place....
And here is what I understand, being a once outsider looking in, to an insider looking out:
We are a "private" group. We do not publicly post our rituals, our modes of recognition. There is a cloud of mystery, of suspicion and even hate that surrounds our organization. And an organization as prominent as we, you would think we would refute such barbaric claims. But we don't, because we don't care.
We really don't.
It is NOT our job to win over the cowards and the skeptics, it is our job to take those who risk everything, who walk blind folded into the unknown and putting all of their trust into complete strangers. To take said individuals and provide them with a society that will better them.
And because of this skepticism as surrounded us, unjustly, but in a way expected.
Masonry is a product of the Enlightenment ideologies, freedom for all, good will unto men.
Freemasonry for the longest time (the first actually) to allow Catholics and Protestants to sit in a bar together in Ireland.
And in many other places..
It is Deistic in nature, believe in a God of your choosing, so long as you bind your self to your faith, and you swear upon it, Masonry asks no further questions.
It is amazing how unheard of that is even today in the most liberal societies..
And that is saddening..
It is private in nature, we hold fast to traditions. In open lodge we still have a man who stands outside the door with a dull and (in my lodges case) rusting sword. Will it stop anyone? No. We have had an entire family walk into an open lodge because our Tyler was deaf and couldn't hear them walk up behind him.
It's symbolic, as is our entire privacy. To an extent.
We do hold our rights to privacy, as any one can, we are not a publicly traded entity, we are a private institution and keep our internal business to our selves.
Is that a crime?
But to further the prospective,
Masonry is used as a scapegoat in so many ways. First off, our world is changing at an ever increasing pace. Sometimes it is amazing to look back a year or two and think "oh my god, the world has changed so much..."
What causes this change? What morphs our very ideal reality, what brings in new ideas, moves jobs over seas and causes irrational leaders to act entirely out of bounds as far as what we see to be logical? Why do we fight wars for oil, why do we suffer inflation, why do world leaders attack each other? Why does the Media lie to us? Why do we accept globalism, why do we plan for martial law and our politicians succumb to the worst possible corruption?
In a world ever evolving, not even giving us a chance to anchor down and create our own normality, we see change around every corner, and seek an explanation.
And coupled with an age of information exploitation, where anything and everything can be made into a money making website or video, we wonder about organizations that escape this.
So we see Masonry, silent, lurking, private. We see some of the world's influential people as members and we see as far back as 300 years some of even thens most influential people involved, we come to quick and irrational conclusions.
Never have I seen an organization that so selfishly donated all they could. A place where 15 guys will shoulder the burden of holding an entire lodge of 400+ on their shoulders, do the initiations and inspections all because it is something they love, something they believe in and something they would die for.
Yes, if Masonry could, it would rule the world so much better. But alas, we cannot, we lost our power, our influence, and instead of friends and allies, people think of us as a subversive enemy working for a deity of evil nature inspired by illogical and hateful ideologies.
They claim we seek to take over the world, and the claim we seek to take away freedoms..
But when it comes down to it.. Freemasonry played a pivotal role in giving America and the entire Western world the freedoms we hold dear, Masonic ideologies like Freedom of Speech, Democracy, Freedom of Religion, and Freedom to defend ones self from Tyranny...
I feel the world should be grateful for our services, not fear us. and it is OUR fault, we do not publicly display what we do.
But then again, Christ himself told us that we should preform kindness and give as much as we can to charity without seeking public recognition.
And this Masonry does.
All I can ask my opponent is this:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question 1. What has Freemasonry done publicly that even appeared subversive and dangerous in nature?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I will address this, as an example of misleading facts, blatent lies and completely wrong information:
Ford (Honorary Mason)
Reagan (Mason)
Bush Sr (Mason) Mega-escalation of freedom-robbing
Clinton (Mason)
Only Ford was a Freemason. Reagan, Bush Sr *and Jr*, Clinton where/are NOT Freemasons.
No known world leader currently is a Freemason.
Just an example of unresearched facts presented as facts without credible resources. We take GREAT pride in US Presidents that where Freemasons.. or any other exceptional person (Like Brad Paisley who's music kicks butt)
I hope this thread opens the eyes of those who read it and come to understand we only seek personal and communal development. We don't have the power or the desire to "run the world" or control lives, it contradicts our philosophies (see 1776 Libertarianism) and our own moral compasses.
And again, I thank Intrepid for taking time out of his busy schedule to set this debate up, and my opponent for partaking in this debate as well.
reply posted on 3-5-2008 @ 12:11 AM by Amaterasu
Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by intrepid
Amaterasu, I welcome you to this thread, this debate, in the first (that I know of) debate officially between a Free and Accepted Mason and someone who opposes the Craft. May the formality of this debate be a shining example of civilized debate between two highly differing mindsets and ideologies.
I thank you for the welcome, and offer the same to you. I am certain that we can be civilized. I honor you for your willingness to join in this debate.
I appreciate your description of yourself and your path. And while I will not dispute your claims of having nothing but positive experiences, believing as I do that most lodges of the Masonic Order are filled with people as you describe, I also contend that there is an unseen lodge. You say:
If there where a secret order of Masons that ran the world and looked for the most ambitious of Masons to assist them, I would surely be picked, no?
Not necessarily. If I suppose that if I was...dark hearted, I will use here... If I was dark hearted, and had such a group feeding off power, but wanted to maintain a shiny face to the world, I would build a shiny level(s), filled with people of light heart. People I could count on to stand up and defend the organization if ever attacked.
And idealistic young men are likely to fit the bill.
I would make sure the young men rose "high" enough quickly enough that they would feel special, as if they had advanced mightily. This would increase passion to speak to a passionate group, while strengthening their loyalty.
This would be to my advantage.
Meanwhile, I would be keeping my eye out for others to exploit in other ways.
As for the religious aspect... You say:
It is Deistic in nature, believe in a God of your choosing, so long as you bind your self to your faith, and you swear upon it, Masonry asks no further questions.
Though I wonder, I will not make it officially a question, but can you believe in Goddess and be a Mason? Or believe in Consciousness as "God" and be a Mason?
Regardless, you ask this question of me:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question 1. What has Freemasonry done publicly that even appeared subversive and dangerous in nature?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
None, to my awareness. "Dangerous" is in the eye of the beholder, of course, and so some things may have had danger involved (might burn one's hand on the hot pancake skillet... [grin]) As for subversive, it seems to me that it is oxymoronic with the term "publicly."
And there is the rub. ALL subversive behavior is NOT public. Which leaves us to examine things like the War on Drugs, the WTO, the FAO, the UN, HAARP, the IMF, the War on Terror, 9/11, 600+ empty prisons which can hold an estimated 20 million (ten times the number we currently incarcerate), and so on, all springing up with Masons in many positions in and surrounding power.
You say:
And I will address this, as an example of misleading facts, blatent lies and completely wrong information:
Ford (Honorary Mason)
Reagan (Mason)
Bush Sr (Mason) Mega-escalation of freedom-robbing
Clinton (Mason)
Only Ford was a Freemason. Reagan, Bush Sr *and Jr*, Clinton where/are NOT Freemasons.
No known world leader currently is a Freemason.
If what you are saying is true, I apologize for my source of information. I offer it here: www.directoryupdate.net...
Please point me to a better source.
Thank you for your view of your position. I am pleased it works for you.
Edit: Spelling.
[edit on 3-5-2008 by intrepid]
reply posted on 3-5-2008 @ 11:34 PM by Rockpuck
Which evidence are we talking about? The evidence you assume I am looking at and evaluating - or the evidence I really am looking at and evaluating? It’s interesting that you also assume I am looking from un- or undereducated eyes in a number of directions.
Your feelings come straight from emotion and judgment based on wrongs you feel society commits against your self. And for some reason, as you are yet to explain, you blame Freemasonry.
And seeing as this is a debate, I would have expected all the evidence you could possibly get and throw it in. But you have none, and repeatedly you go off on tangents about how much you hate conservative values. Which have nothing to do with Masonry?
This is mere assertion here. To assume that a given conspiracy theory, in a world with unlimited numbers of examples of conspiracies that managed to come to light (and untold many that never did), is incorrect because “all the conspiracy theorists are uneducated” and “no one does research” is completely illogical. In fact, it is downright mis directive and hyperbolic.
I am yet to see a single well thought out educated conspiracy theory in regards to Masonry. The History channel does a good jobs, though they hardly go into conspiracy, at least they can get their facts (almost) straight.
It's just like the example in the first post, you listed four people (and Bush's family) of whom NO ONE but Ford was a Mason.
It's not, oops I got it wrong, and it's not well I thought its quite simply someone has an agenda or someone lacked the mental capacity to look around official documentation.
But this debate is digressing.
I am NOT here to argue with you over how conspiracy theorist do their research. And I am hardly here to judge your mental capabilities.
I am here to debate whether or not Freemasonry is "controlling the world" or as you once said to me "going to end in genocide" .. and I am YET to see any actual proof, or even a description of proof as to 1. How that is possible and 2. WHY?
The presence of so many Masons involved in, directly or peripherally, the operation of the money and how it flows. The fact we have no Masonic champion on the world level; albeit the ranks up there are loaded with Masons, not one is stepping up to the bat for the little guy.
That is a pretty big statement. And may I ask how you are privy to such information? Or was it assumption, or guessing, or a mixture of both. Another clear description of stating something, in this case how "money flows", not understanding it and blaming Masons.
No, Masonry is not involved at any level of the government or the economy.
Are Masons? Yes, wouldn't doubt it. There are also Elks, VA, Eagles, Knights of Columbus, Opus Di, Evangelicals (whom I would fear above all others) and many many other groups.
So, what is so special about Masonry that we are singled out to rule it all? Don't get me wrong, I am flattered. But there is ZERO evidence to prove it, and you prove that here tonight.
Only deductively. See my answer to question 1.
Well that's not a very clear answer is it? You just said we are corrupting or manipulating the "way money flows" and offer no proof, no evidence, not even a suggestion as to "how". Just assumptions that, I am sorry, have no educated backing what so ever.
As an accuser you should bring forth knowledge to that of which you speak of. The burden of proof lies in YOUR hands.
I never said you were anything. You sound defensive… It’s not you, personally (well, it may actually be - who knows - but that is irrelevant), but an evil within the ranks somewhere, and seemingly at the very top. You’d think some of those guys had the heart of a lizard!
Tell me, is it that there "IS" a corruption within Freemasonry, or that you WANT there to be a corruption within freemasonry? Not to sound redundant but, this whole masquerade is redundant. You cannot make such audacious claims with no proof!
Although that does not mean necessarily that these thing have taken place from time to time, the chances of any one of them happening frequently at the level of national and world politics is extremely high.
So you are admitting every thing you claim is pure speculation? That because politicians become corrupt, Masonry must to become corrupt? Even though we are a charitable organization, not a political party, not a government.. you can hardly compare the two.
Question 1 (2 &3?): Where are the data that show that that was particularly “irregular?” Why should that be believed? Just because you say so?
Propaganda Due or P2 was a Masonic lodge operating under the jurisdiction of the Grand Orient of Italy from 1877 to 1976 (when its charter was withdrawn), and a pseudo-Masonic or "black" or "covert" lodge operating illegally from 1976 to 1981. During the 1980s, when the lodge was headed by Licio Gelli, P2 was implicated in numerous Italian crimes and mysteries, including the nationwide bribe scandal Tangentopoli, the collapse of the Vatican-affiliated Banco Ambrosiano, and the murders of journalist Mino Pecorelli and banker Roberto Calvi. P2 came to light through the investigations into the collapse of Michele Sindona's financial empire.[1]
P2 was sometimes referred to as a "state within a state"[2] or a "shadow government".[3] The lodge had among its members prominent journalists, parliamentarians, industrialists, and military leaders -- including the then-future Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi; the Savoy pretender to the Italian throne Victor Emmanuel; and the heads of all three Italian intelligence services.
en.wikipedia.org...
You seem to have a hard time believing ..... anyone? Doesn't make you right though, you know?
If 20 men gather to make a choice, and 20 are Masons, would we not say the Masons are meeting, although it many not be on “official” business?
Absolutely not. Unless it falls within the Lodge's constitution of course. That would raise red flags right there. If 20 masons meet to conspire, it will not be for the sake of the lodge. If a lodge's accounts exceed a certain amount, when many state's grand lodge treasuries are under 20 million in assets, that to would raise red flags.
But Masonry it's self is an idea, it is a practice. The ritual is Masonry, and Freemasons are the practicer's of said ritual. Anytime something is done outside of the bounds of governing a lodge, or partaking in ritual you cross a line that has nothing to do with Masonry and cannot be discussed in lodge. (politics, economics, religion.. it's illegal to even discuss this during lodge, as during lodge we represent Masonry)
It is suggesting that I might equate the Rep. Party with Freemasonry, which is not necessarily so. The Illuminati has its tentacles deep into many places.
Yes, I did mis number the question, my deepest apologize. It is easy to tell you are more "liberal" then most. You apparently have a deep mistrust in the government. You feel their actions work to control you, to take away freedoms like your freedom to get high when ever you want. You equate this to Masonry because you blame Masonry for these problems. Why? Because you take everything you don't like, and you group it together into a generic group called the Illuminati.
There is no evidence of an Illuminati.
You couldn't tell me even 75% certain a single person that is definently Illuminati.
You cannot tell me for certain where the Illuminati is, what they do, how many members, their ideologies, their politics, their economics nor even one instance where anything regarding the Illuminati has made it's self public.
Without a single certainty, it is a wonder that the Illuminati, the NWO, and Freemasonry are blamed for atrocities and manipulations without a shred of credible evidence.
If this where a court of law, your case would be laughed out of the court room.
Such fervent over generalization and blatant hate for Masonry and yet you have not even shown an inkling of evidence that you know anything about Masonry. You don't know how we do business, how we think, how our social structure works, you don't even know how our degree system and apendant bodies really work.
You just blame us for the sake of having someone easy to blame for your problems.
It's ok though, it happens all the time. Catholics did it to Protestants, and vice versa, Hitler to the Jews, Stalin to dissidents, America to the Communist, the English to the Irish.
Yes, it's always easy to be able to point your finger and through self righteous bigotry blame someone else for your own shortcomings, without an ounce of evidence hysterical and absurd presentations can become more and more attractive. That is all the conspiracy theories surrounding Masonry are. Simple, absurd, uneducated, unresearched, bigoted, and spiteful.
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