Patriot Act 'Protects' U.S. Freedoms: Ashcroft

Originally posted by RabbitChaser
Man... do any of these guys really expect us to 'buy' anything that comes out of their mouths anymore?

Sadly, we'd be MUCH better off if he would have pursued a singing career...

www.youtube.com...

And now backwards, for the true hidden messege...

www.youtube.com...

Yes they do and there are still a lot of sheeple out there who still believe these morons.

reply to post by ZindoDoone


Ive gone into this in other threads and sometimes I feel I shouldnt have to keep explaining the freedoms the patriot act takes but Im going to do it again so people understand.

1.Under FISA before you could tap peoples phone calls you would have to go to a judge. That way people couldnt tap people for no reason. Bushy said that is not good enough we need it faster so they changed the FISA law to where you could tap first then go to a judge after words you know checks and balances to make sure the government isnt tapping people for no reason. Well that wasnt good enough either so in the patriot act they put a clause in there that they can tap who they want and they dont need to go to a judge. Hmmmm Im sure no one would abuse that power.....


2.The government has access to all library records without a warrant. This one I thought was funny because there really is no reason they would need this. What do they think the terrorists are going to go to a library and ask"hey where is the Jihad section?"

3.No longer have to go to a judge to search your house. Just need 2 FBI signatures. And not only can they search your house if you are gone they can destroy your house to look like a robbery and bug the place....gee Im sure this power wont be abused either.

4.All access to bank and medical records no warrant needed. Once again just 2 FBI signatures. And the kicker is if your friend at the bank tells you that you have been searched he can go to jail.

The point is congress passed this without reading this and then when they found out what it was about tried getting it amended. Well at that point it was to late couldnt get enough votes. So when bush goes on TV and says congress is not keeping us safe but renewing parts of the patriot act he is incorrect they just have to get a warrant if they want to tap calls and they can still tap first and get a warrant later.

For anyone who knows anything about American history there are checks and balances for a reason and the patriot act knocks out a lot of those balances. Our founders would be rolling in their graves if they knew the freedoms we gave up. But as long as there are sheeple out there who listen to everything our government spews at them Democrats or Republicans we will continue to lose our freedoms and money to a select few.

They will protect our freedoms!

They will be taken away to a safe place and burried in an indestructable vault.

Our freedoms may need to sacrifice their ability to exercise; but they will survive, even when we do not!

reply to post by mybigunit


Sadly, you will not be able to simply 'acquire' the knowledge you just shared without 'seeking for it'.

The American population is deluded by reinforced messages that they are the most well-informed community on the planet. That kind of systematically enhanced 'hubris' is not easily overcome by a few people here and there trying to share it with, or even so much at a gathering of the curious, such as here in ATS. I think the reason Americans (me included) generally are this way is because we are slowly being conditioned only to focus on outrageous anomalies of behavior, voyeuristic escapism, and extreme brutalities.

As smart, gifted, and otherwise erudite as many people are, they are often focused on the most amazingly shallow non-sense. I believe that is even MORE evident in our artistic community. I long held that art is the last refuge of the human spirit, but I am hard pressed to find humanity in what is now popularly considered art. It all nasty self indulgent proselytizing, blatant commercialism, or more outrageous anomalies of behavior, voyeuristic escapism, and extreme brutalities.

Ever read a letter from a civil war soldier to his family or friends. These are stunningly deep, well structure letters. Read one today from a '21-st century' soldier. The depth of sadness goes beyond the subject matter.

Do you expect them to know of the patriot act parts one and two? If so, do you think they will have been 'told' what it means? Or will they have been given the chance to take its measure on their own?

reply to post by Maxmars


This is why I try to get the message out there...look I have some hard hard core Bush loving republicans in my family and I fight with them all the time but you know something...they are starting to get the big picture...look it took me awhile to see the big picture myself I wont lie. But fortunately I have always had an open mind...a way to see both sides and pick one instead of looking through some sort of tunnel vision. Im arguing with someone on another thread about money and how our system works. He says its not a bad thing that the FED is printing all sorts of money that we dont have...these are the people that I have to convince and THESE PEOPLE VOTE and that is what is scary. Ill keep fighting the good fight and Ill keep typing so people will understand that that a patriot questions his government a sheeple listens to everything they say without questioning it.

reply to post by mybigunit


I know what the patriot act says. I've read it. I don't need a rehash of what is wrong in it or what everyone is afraid it does. I asked how you who are so up in arms over it would handle the situation differantly. It s easy to complain but how should it be handled. Do we sit and do nothing or do we keep allowing those who plan to harm us continue to use message boards, email and or phone system to plan the next atrocity and do it with impunity. If you believe negotiation is the way,you are sadly misinformed on the history of how the Arab world has dealt with negotiators in the past 2000-3000 yrs.We cannot ignore our past and how things where done in the past, but the fact remains we do have to do something to intercept the next attack . It will come and if we get taken by surprise it won't be Bush thats the reason. It will be because no one was listening to connect the dots!!!

Zindo

Originally posted by ZindoDoone
reply to post by mybigunit

 

I know what the patriot act says. I've read it. I don't need a rehash of what is wrong in it or what everyone is afraid it does. I asked how you who are so up in arms over it would handle the situation differantly. It s easy to complain but how should it be handled. Do we sit and do nothing or do we keep allowing those who plan to harm us continue to use message boards, email and or phone system to plan the next atrocity and do it with impunity. If you believe negotiation is the way,you are sadly misinformed on the history of how the Arab world has dealt with negotiators in the past 2000-3000 yrs.We cannot ignore our past and how things where done in the past, but the fact remains we do have to do something to intercept the next attack . It will come and if we get taken by surprise it won't be Bush thats the reason. It will be because no one was listening to connect the dots!!!

Zindo

Hey im not saying dont wiretap and keep track of these people Im saying do it with warrants and the balancing of a judge so I know that the power is not being abused.

Like the guy in your avatar...Im not saying you cant own a gun Im not even saying you cant carry a gun Im just saying you cant carry a gun here into town (One of my favorite movies of all time.)

[edit on 3-5-2008 by mybigunit]

Originally posted by loam
I'm choosing to laugh. What choice do we really appear to have?

Source: The Declaration of Independence
Preamble:
...That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness...

Bold emphasis is mine...A bit more constructive than merely laughing at the situation, wouldn't you think?

At any rate, the Constitution even details the peaceful methods available to us before resorting to violence: Particularly, the First Amendment shows that the government is to be Petitioned for Redress of Grievances (ie: demand that the government fix the problem, within their Constitutionally-designated limits)...The Second Amendment is for when the government refuses to abide by all peaceful methods to get back in line.

Originally posted by Aaron_Justin
You do not need to read that speach to learn about the Patriot Act, to learn the real truth, read the Patriot Act.

For one example, the Patriot Act profiles entire sections of Citizens & labels them as potential terrorists: Christians, for one...Constitutionalists for another. It seems ironic to me that all Government Officials in all three Branches & on Federal & State levels are required to swear/affirm an Oath to obey the Constitution before they can assume Office, which would (in effect) mean that the Patriot Act includes themselves as potential terrorists! At any rate, I would consider the Patriot Act to be the same as the government formally declaring war on the Citizens.

Originally posted by ZindoDoone
I realise that most here think our government is the true enemy but do you actualy think that no one else is our enemy? Do you realy believe that negotiation with the extreme wing of the Muslim community will actualy bere fruit?...

Were you aware that our government (most especially the CIA) has been mucking around over there for decades? What do you think the US was doing during the Cold War Era anyway? The US government has been screwing with their governments, their societies and even training people in "terrorist tactics" all that time...Don't you think that would tend to make them mad at us in the first place?
The "spread of Democracy" all over the world is a sham, merely meant to sound good to the US public; The USA should be a Constitutional Republic, not a Democracy & has no valid reason for the "spread" of Democracy either. If we were to pull out & leave them alone, they're likely to stop actively targeting us for retribution!

For another thing, the Executive Branch is charged with the duty of "faithfully executing" the Laws of the Constitution...Including Immigration Laws. Bush has steadfastly refused to enforce those Laws until they've been "reformed," which leaves our borders wide open to the "civilian invasion" that's been occurring for the past decade! With all of the illegals crossing the borders, who's to say that actual terrorists won't take advantage of that big hole in our "national defense" (which is another of the government's duties that they've been failing, by the way).
There are a wide variety of Constitutionally-approved methods for the government to keep tabs on enemies of the nation...The Partriot Act itself is a complete violation of the Constitution & has no valid reason to exist & be enforced.

Originally posted by mybigunit
The point is congress passed this without reading this and then when they found out what it was about tried getting it amended.

IMO, it would be far eaisier for Congress to Repeal it entirely until they could debate it for editing until it conforms to Constitutional limitations, then perhaps hold another vote. Nah, that'll never happen because it's a solution that actually makes sense.

There's a lot of other subjects I could include here that indicate how pervasive the government's criminality is, but they've been covered in other threads & I don't have time to link so many of them either.

reply to post by ZindoDoone


Are you even being serious right now? What would we do different? How about put it back like it was where you have to get a judge to tap the phone. Hell even go back to where you tap first get the judge later, but there has to be some monitering of this type of power. There should always be a judge necessary to warrent a look at any American bank, medical, any kind of records. This is very different than a phone call taking place as the records are not going anywhere.

I for one do not want to hand in my freedoms and liberties due to some threat of any kind. That is not the American way, that is not my way, I hope sir, that is not your way. I do not judge you if your opinion differs, but I will encourage you to re-evaluate your stance, and think about what your willing to give away.l

reply to post by Aaron_Justin


I'm refering to the mechanics of the problem. Secrecy within our justice department and local courts, especialy, is almost non-exsistant. Most times warrants are known about at the same time an investigation is starting out. The technology to just pic out the correct message out of just the 40,000,000 emails sent every day is not available.Don't be surprised that one of the many UFO and conspiracy message boards like this one isn't being used right now for illicit communication. They (our government) use BOTS, like advertisers do on this internet, to find keywords. A warrant to listen in on one converstaion or email only, and to get the right one with the right types and scope is monumental.They where spot on when the agencies said it takes 2-3 weeks or even months to get a hearing to get a federal warrant. So, the badguys are gone and the information is also. Only one way to get that info or a starting place to look, and thats fishing expeditions. I don't like it this way either, but it is a fact of life as of today. They (the badguys) have to use our libraries, our internet, the resorces that are available here because theres so much information available to them do too the very freedoms we possess in the US. These folks have read Lao Tsu, Sun Tsu, they know how to conduct themselves to bring about they're twisted goals. They are totalitarian in mindset. They are committed. If we aren't, we're going to get our butts handed to us. We,me included ,do not like the way things are being done, but with the way things are at the moment, I see no alterior. We can't keep up the vigilance with in our own people because of all the other crap we have to put up with just to make a living. The walls are crumbling around us and its a full time job to keep up. Like I said. I know the problem, I just wonder if anyone else knows another way to handle it???
Zindo

[edit on 5/4/2008 by ZindoDoone]

reply to post by ZindoDoone


Zin when the government gets a warrant for terrorists its not done through a standard judge its done through the FISA court and in complete secrecy. Also if they are worried its going to leak that they have a warrant that it will scare off the terrorists like I said they have the ability to tap first and go to the judge later. This to me seems so cut and dry I cant figure out why you would be advocating for no warrants at all. There has to be checks and balances plain and simple as that and there was a good guy by the name of Benjamin Franklin who said "he who sacrifices liberty for security deserve neither" this man put his life on the line like the other 56 people who signed the declaration of independence because they wanted freedom. They had everything to lose.

reply to post by mybigunit

I agree that we are losing liberty. I know the constitution. I carry a copy with me at all times. I have a pocket edition next to my wallet right over me heart. The balance between that and the reality of today is near impossible to attain.
I'm not advocating no warrants. FISA is the problem. The mechanics of that secret court,and I believe it should be secret, need to be rethought. Believe me when I tell you that not even that system hasn't been breeched. One senator,(Charles Schumer), has breeched that secrecy in the past with impunity to agrandise himself. We have no ethics in Washington. We need learned men to come forth and stop trying to become king. As you can see, my frustration at trying to see another way is not only my own. Its the same with everybody I talk with or communicate with.
Zindo

Originally posted by ZindoDoone
reply to post by mybigunit

 

I agree that we are losing liberty. I know the constitution. I carry a copy with me at all times. I have a pocket edition next to my wallet right over me heart. The balance between that and the reality of today is near impossible to attain.
I'm not advocating no warrants. FISA is the problem. The mechanics of that secret court,and I believe it should be secret, need to be rethought. Believe me when I tell you that not even that system hasn't been breeched. One senator,(Charles Schumer), has breeched that secrecy in the past with impunity to agrandise himself. We have no ethics in Washington. We need learned men to come forth and stop trying to become king. As you can see, my frustration at trying to see another way is not only my own. Its the same with everybody I talk with or communicate with.
Zindo

BTW Doc Holiday would be a better avatar With that being said yes I agree there are no ethics they are all under control of big business whether its oil, phara, ag, or whatever all their pockets are well greased and you and me pay for it. Right and thats why I agree everyone I talk to also wants another way but we have strayed so far from that piece of paper next to your heart which the ideas are excellent and the patriot act wiped out several of those liberties. That is my concern. Look I know at times of war we have to sacrifice and frankly I dont think we have sacrificed enough. During the time of war taxes were lowered and there is no draft. If people had to foot the bill and send their children over trust me people would be concerned.

I just want to go back to the roots of our constitution. I understand we are in modern times but the principals are timeless and unfortunately you & I are one of the few people who understand this.

[edit on 4-5-2008 by mybigunit]

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government!"

Its again time to heed these sage words and act on them. Sorely the masses will not abide by it or the meaning it instills!!

By the way, that avatar suits me. I'm a 'Cowboy Action Shooter'. I just don't happen to have one of myself in my period correct fooforall!
Zindo

Originally posted by ZindoDoone
"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government!"

Its again time to heed these sage words and act on them. Sorely the masses will not abide by it or the meaning it instills!!

By the way, that avatar suits me. I'm a 'Cowboy Action Shooter'. I just don't happen to have one of myself in my period correct fooforall!
Zindo

No they wont because look at my avatar there are to many sheeple out there. Most people wouldnt understand that that comes from the declaration of independence and would call you a nut if you spoke those words to them....We live in a society that is so far off its roots its pathetic. This is why I tell people who are fighting over dems and repubs its ALL OF THEM and there needs to be change but Im afraid it will never happen until the sheeple wake up and realize that just because the government tells you its right doesnt make it right.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm thinking about the viability of starting a new political party... the Transparency and Oversight Party.

It's main focus outside of the constitutionally germane is
- to ensure that the actual beneficiaries of every government action or decision are within reach of public review,

- to guarantee that the 'soup to nuts' processes invoked by government in the act of governing are available for review and redress by the people at all times.

- to protect and provide stewardship for all public resources (uh-oh) in accordance with the will of the people,

- to enforce full disclosure of all 'external' affairs policies and actions,

- to provide a continuous public venue of discourse for all concerned citizens

- to hold true to the value of accuracy in public reporting and educational history regarding the Union

- to enforce the 'obligations' of civil service are met honorably and without bias or prejudice towards or against any class or category of citizen

- to correct, in accordance with the constitution, all frauds and deceptions perpetrated upon the existing Union

- to remove the commercial incentives from public service

- to restore corporations to non-citizen entities

...., well, I think you get the idea

- Maybe I'll make a thread and see how much flamage there is in my future..., sniff around for the burnt flesh..., that'd be me.

reply to post by Maxmars


I know there is a constituitionalist Party out there but its not very viable I would like to find a way to make it a viable force. I think if a party like that got the press as the other two it could very well be viable. Hmmmm

I just found this quote. I read it along time ago but it surely is more than prescient now!
Zindo



“There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.” —Ayn Rand

Originally posted by ZindoDoone
I just found this quote. I read it along time ago but it surely is more than prescient now!
Zindo



“There’s no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren’t enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.” —Ayn Rand

Yup when you look at the laws we have in regards to marijuana and what not it is almost laughable. Im not advocating marijuana but how do you have tobacco and alcohol legal and not marijuana. We spend 30 to 40 billion dollars a year to fight it. Why not legalize it and tax it and earmark every dime to our infrastructure that has been left behind since the 50s. I agree with the quote.

Were these two guys at the same meeting? Seems to be another 'surge' underway from this Administration...

Homeland Security Update: Chertoff Says New Laws Needed

Chertoff said that once laws are written, the public should not second-guess government actions and claim that federal officials are overstepping their authority.

Chertoff further said U.S. society needs to come to a determination as to what are acceptable authorities for the U.S. government versus what violates people’s rights.

If the public limits what the government can do, it must accept that the risk of terrorist attacks may increase, he said. If the public gives the government greater authorities, it should not criticize the government for using those authorities at a later date.

WTF? You've got to be kidding me. Will the insane rhetoric never end from these psychopaths ?

[edit on 5/6/2008 by RabbitChaser]