The murderer from the beginning

Did any of you notice that God didnt say anything to the serpent about what not to do? Think about it... Why then did God even punish the serpent by having the serpent cursed for what the serpent did? The sepent didnt even eat from the tree. To have done wrong you would have had to of done something God said not to do. The serpent clearly done no wrong, but recieved a punishment. Now God is seen evil as dirt from the beginning.

I will get to the murderer part in a minute.

And so it wasnt told to the woman not to eat nor to the serpent, it was though told to Adam only. So why did the woman (Eve) even basically say ye (which can imply all like both Adam and the serpent, but not herself) eat not of the etc lest ye (all like Adam and the serpent, except herself) die?

The serpent was technically truthful saying ye (implying all expect himself since he said ye, not "we") will surly not die. Only Adam would die, not the woman so there is no dieing to both. That's when you look at it technically. There is a context missing for a reason. It's up to the reader to spot it out that there was no we or ye that would die expect for a "you/thou" (implying one!!!: which would be Adam only).

^^Tell me you see that before reading on!!

It was the woman (Eve) that was first replied to the question having the term "ye". Plus, how did she know what God said to Adam to even get to the point of saying it with "ye" in it back to the serpent? She had to have been in the know of something already which the serpent was trying to find out since it asked a quetion specifally to her. Surely the serpent knowing too much was also in the know of good and evil already. The thing missing is just that the woman didnt already know who all ate of the tree would be wise as gods it seems. That's the only thing she didnt seem to know already that Satan knew already. You're only wise if you can make use of knowledge by the way.

Plus, God saw it not good for "the" man (Adam) to be alone which would mean he saw it good in what would become because of the woman along with the other living creatures (which includes the serpent), which are all of the help meet for Adam, unless God is not wise. The only thing they helped Adam do was eat of the tree he ONLY wasnt told to eat of. Since God supplied them as help, then it can be said they were as help to get him to eat of the tree to defy God's word. But since God punished him because of that help, then God is surely seen as a murderer from the beginning. It was God that would have Adam return to dust. Thus it's murder of a full formed man. Jesus in the Gospel revealed the devil as the father of lies. God surely lied by way of the help meet so that God could murder. It was as a set up.

Also notice that in Rev is Satan releaved as having also been the serpent... Dont you see that the voice of God wasnt given a body in Genesis to walk in the garden, but Satan was given a body? Since Satan is apart of that "us" in "Let us make man in our image", then Satan obviously had the right to say whatever he said to the woman, and had the power to make what he said true, concerning any of man, that they would become wise as gods.

Anyway, the woman was punished and the serpent was punished which doesnt make any sense. Can you understand Adam being punished because of the help meet God supplied him with? It all only reveals God Almighty as the devil that is the father of lies, unwise, not all-knowing, and sinisterly wicked by placing snares only to surely get to the point of punishing any that God Almighty already must have had the intention to do so against. That is wickedness at it's finest! Why even bother to place that tree there in the garden if the help meet surely werent going to help Adam abstain from eating of it? Why even bother to place Satan in the body of a serpent in the garden where that tree was? Why not bother to tell Eve and the Serpent not to eat of the tree, too, or to get Adam to eat of it?

Originally posted by Mabus
Did any of you notice that God didnt say anything to the serpent about what not to do? Think about it... Why then did God even punish the serpent by having the serpent cursed for what the serpent did? The sepent didnt even eat from the tree. To have done wrong you would have had to of done something God said not to do. The serpent clearly done no wrong, but recieved a punishment. Now God is seen evil as dirt from the beginning.

Eve said that the serpent deceived her. God said, "Because you have done this..." which confirms that she was telling the truth.

I will get to the murderer part in a minute.

And so it wasnt told to the woman not to eat nor to the serpent, it was though told to Adam only. So why did the woman (Eve) even basically say ye (which can imply all like both Adam and the serpent, but not herself) eat not of the etc lest ye (all like Adam and the serpent, except herself) die?

She's quoting God, thus 'ye' applies to her. You'd have to look at the original Hebrew for specifics.

It was the woman (Eve) that was first replied to the question having the term "ye". Plus, how did she know what God said to Adam to even get to the point of saying it with "ye" in it back to the serpent? She had to have been in the know of something already which the serpent was trying to find out since it asked a quetion specifally to her. Surely the serpent knowing too much was also in the know of good and evil already. The thing missing is just that the woman didnt already know who all ate of the tree would be wise as gods it seems. That's the only thing she didnt seem to know already that Satan knew already. You're only wise if you can make use of knowledge by the way.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make in this part. Could you clarify please?

reply to post by Alcove


She wasnt decieved by the serpent because in the first place she wasnt told not to eat of the tree by God nor could she have heard what God said to Adam. Obviously she decieved God by saying in fear what she said just then about the serpent in lying on the serpent. And at what point did she realise it was a trick when out of her own mouth she misquoted what God said only to Adam? If she knew already to have even said what was even a misqoute, then that means she, if she is going by what she herself said, could not have been tricked by the serpent. So ha! Come again.

Plus, if you noticed why were they in fear of God if God is supposed to be strickly good? Obviously what was naked about them is that they would have realized God would commit murder. The murder of man. Thus the murderer from the beginning was God. God didnt promise Adam life, no, God would return him to dust! It was Satan that promised life in surely will ye not die.

[edit on 29-4-2008 by Mabus]

Why would god allow a being like the serpent in the presence of his new creations in the first place?And why the test on beings who were inherently innocent? And may i point out that nowhere in the bible does it say the serpent was the devil or satan, but it is commonly referred to as him.

Originally posted by 23Eulogy23
And may i point out that nowhere in the bible does it say the serpent was the devil or satan, but it is commonly referred to as him.

Try Revelation.

"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Old = ancient which means the Ancient of days mentioned in the book by Daniel is Satan of many titles/names/positions/signs/etc.

reply to post by Mabus


There are thousands of serpent references in history. So is that the same serpent as the one in the garden?

Originally posted by 23Eulogy23
reply to post by Mabus

 

There are thousands of serpent references in history. So is that the same serpent as the one in the garden?

It said "old" and in a context that can only suggests surely the same serpent in Genesis which is in the "OLD" testiment. Besides, the serpent in Genesis could speak. No other beasts could speak. It was just Man, Woman, God and his angels, and Satan which could speak. So the speak part makes it more certian.

Originally posted by Mabus
reply to post by Alcove

 

She wasnt decieved by the serpent because in the first place she wasnt told not to eat of the tree by God nor could she have heard what God said to Adam. Obviously she decieved God by saying in fear what she said just then about the serpent in lying on the serpent. And at what point did she realise it was a trick when out of her own mouth she misquoted what God said only to Adam? If she knew already to have even said what was even a misqoute, then that means she, if she is going by what she herself said, could not have been tricked by the serpent. So ha! Come again.

So you're assuming that God didn't tell Eve, but instead Adam told her what God told him and she deceived God somehow? Why would God tell Adam only?

Plus, if you noticed why were they in fear of God if God is supposed to be strickly good? Obviously what was naked about them is that they would have realized God would commit murder. The murder of man. Thus the murderer from the beginning was God. God didnt promise Adam life, no, God would return him to dust!

God is good. He isn't the sunshine-and-butterflies type though. They were supposed to be afraid of his justice. He gave them one simple command, and they broke it.

It was Satan that promised life in surely will ye not die.

Yes, but they did. That's the deception.

So you're assuming that God didn't tell Eve, but instead Adam told her what God told him and she deceived God somehow? Why would God tell Adam only?


^^Because it is a fact God did only tell Adam says the bible. I look at what is intentionally left in suggestion for the reader to figure out.


God is good. He isn't the sunshine-and-butterflies type though. They were supposed to be afraid of his justice. He gave them one simple command, and they broke it.


^^How can God murder, then make the 10 commandments which includes thou shalt not kill, THEN want certian ppl killed? Such contradiction and hypocrisy reveals the father of lies as God Almighty as the devil and author of confusion.

Ezekiel 3:19-21:
Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

^^So you're wanted not to kill, but then you're wanted to kill?


Yes, but they did. That's the deception.


^^Why then in Gen did it say by God that the man is as one of us?

Gen 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

^^Doesnt say anything about the woman becoming one of "us" (unless she already been one of that "us"). And who is the "us" LORD God is implying? It can only mean God and Satan (since Satan knew the whole "as gods thing"). Which means they are gods of a different kind to one another, and that Satan could have done no wrong to be punished. So the one punishing another of that "us" along with first man and first woman unto etc that the "us" had image rights to is God Almighty. Thus God Almighty is the devil for committing murder. The image ppl follow (when not observing detail and the suggestions) was made to seem like Satan is the bad guy. That is just far from true.

Originally posted by Mabus

^^Because it is a fact God did only tell Adam says the bible. I look at what is intentionally left in suggestion for the reader to figure out.

God telling Eve what he told Adam is implied by what Eve said.

^^How can God murder, then make the 10 commandments which includes thou shalt not kill, THEN want certian ppl killed? Such contradiction and hypocrisy reveals the father of lies as God Almighty as the devil and author of confusion.

Ezekiel 3:19-21:
Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

^^So you're wanted not to kill, but then you're wanted to kill?

That looks like a faulty translation in the King James version. Other translations say that you will be responsible for his blood.

^^Why then in Gen did it say by God that the man is as one of us?

Gen 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

'Us' is usually interpreted as the Trinity. Alternatively, it might refer to God and other beings like angels. So yeah, it could include Satan.

reply to post by Mabus

^^Doesnt say anything about the woman becoming one of "us" (unless she already been one of that "us").

She probably was, though, since it says God made the man leave Eden, and Eve also left.

And who is the "us" LORD God is implying? It can only mean God and Satan (since Satan knew the whole "as gods thing"). Which means they are gods of a different kind to one another, and that Satan could have done no wrong to be punished. So the one punishing another of that "us" along with first man and first woman unto etc that the "us" had image rights to is God Almighty. Thus God Almighty is the devil for committing murder. The image ppl follow (when not observing detail and the suggestions) was made to seem like Satan is the bad guy. That is just far from true.

Satan being a part of the 'us' God referred to doesn't mean he's a god. And that's assuming he is referred to by 'us.'

Originally posted by Alcove
reply to post by Mabus

 

^^Doesnt say anything about the woman becoming one of "us" (unless she already been one of that "us").

She probably was, though, since it says God made the man leave Eden, and Eve also left.

And who is the "us" LORD God is implying? It can only mean God and Satan (since Satan knew the whole "as gods thing"). Which means they are gods of a different kind to one another, and that Satan could have done no wrong to be punished. So the one punishing another of that "us" along with first man and first woman unto etc that the "us" had image rights to is God Almighty. Thus God Almighty is the devil for committing murder. The image ppl follow (when not observing detail and the suggestions) was made to seem like Satan is the bad guy. That is just far from true.

Satan being a part of the 'us' God referred to doesn't mean he's a god. And that's assuming he is referred to by 'us.'

One thing for certain is when God said "let us make man in our image" man did get made in that image of gods only through/by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

^^Agree? Or disagree now?

"is as one of us" part can only mean as a god. Though it can mean as one of one of the "us". Same as one already existing if not meaning same as belong to the same class. Plus since Adam is as "one of us", he shouldnt die, but yet he would return to dust??? There is a contradiction unless it is revealing that God is not immortal nor in full extent eternal.

^^What do you have to say about that?

One thing for certain is when God said "let us make man in our image" man did get made in that image of gods only through/by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

How is that?

"is as one of us" part can only mean as a god. Though it can mean as one of one of the "us". Same as one already existing if not meaning same as belong to the same class. Plus since Adam is as "one of us", he shouldnt die, but yet he would return to dust??? There is a contradiction unless it is revealing that God is not immortal nor in full extent eternal.

^^What do you have to say about that?

Are you talking about Genesis 3:22?
Adam "is as one of us" in that he knew good and evil, not because he was the same as God.

I'd like to jump in here if I may.

First of all, if you accept the premise that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, then you cannot deny that the Biblical God not only knew what was going to happen from the beginning to the end of time (before he even started the whole creation thing), It provided the necessary props to ensure everything went down the way God knew it would.

That being said, I have a few theories of my own on this subject.

1. The serpent never lied, Eve claims that he "beguiled" her, but God never says he lied. It seems moreso, that God cursed the serpent for letting the cat out of the bag about the whole eyes being opened and becoming wise and as gods "thing".

2. The "us" as in "the man is become as one of us" cannot possibly refer to the Trinity because the Hebrews did not believe in a Trinity like the Christians do, and they are the ones who wrote the Genesis accounts.

3. God threw Adam and Eve out so that they could not eat from the Tree of Life and become immortal, since immortality was the only thing now separating the humans from the gods:

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Adam and Eve weren't punished that severely because they did something they were told not to. They were thrown out because now that they had the Knowledge of the gods, they might realize that all they had to do to be gods was eat from the Tree of Life. God did not create them so they could become equals! They were supposed to be inferior!

4. Before they ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, Adam and Eve were to God what our favorite pet is to us. God was all-wise and immortal, while they were content to spend their days showering It with their adoration and basking in Its love. God put a tempting treat right in the middle of everything and then told his loyal but naive pets not to eat it or they would die (as if they had any idea what death actually was). Notice they were not told to avoid the Tree of Life, just the Tree of Knowledge. Unfortunately for God as well as Adam and Eve, the serpent thought it would be a good idea to let Its pets in on a secret. All they had to do to be like the One whom they so adored and idolized was to eat of the Tree of Knowledge. Since everyone knows that imitation is the ultimate form of flattery, its not hard to imagine WHY they did it. How were they supposed to know that God didn't want them to be like It? After all, until they ate of the Tree they had no concept of Good and Evil, and were thus incapable of knowing right from wrong.

5. The serpent's punishment was to be scorned by Eve's offspring and crawl on its belly. Eve's punishment was to experience pain in childbirth and to be subject to her husband's will. Adam's punishment was that he would everafter have to work hard to survive, to eat, and to provide for his family.

6. Adam and Eve, in my opinion, did not have physical bodies of flesh and blood until after they ate of the Tree.

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them

This is commonly understood to mean animal skins but I think it is possible that it means they were given flesh bodies.

Anyways that's my 2 cents...Take them as you will.

Originally posted by jezebel5150
I'd like to jump in here if I may.

First of all, if you accept the premise that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, then you cannot deny that the Biblical God not only knew what was going to happen from the beginning to the end of time (before he even started the whole creation thing), It provided the necessary props to ensure everything went down the way God knew it would.

That being said, I have a few theories of my own on this subject.

1. The serpent never lied, Eve claims that he "beguiled" her, but God never says he lied. It seems moreso, that God cursed the serpent for letting the cat out of the bag about the whole eyes being opened and becoming wise and as gods "thing".

Well, he did tell Eve that she wouldn't die if she ate the fruit.

2. The "us" as in "the man is become as one of us" cannot possibly refer to the Trinity because the Hebrews did not believe in a Trinity like the Christians do, and they are the ones who wrote the Genesis accounts.

I would disagree, because the Bible says that God never changes, so the Trinity always existed.

I don't know about your point 3.

After all, until they ate of the Tree they had no concept of Good and Evil, and were thus incapable of knowing right from wrong.

They didn't know good and evil, but they still knew what God told them.

#5 comes directly from Genesis 3:14-19.

6. Adam and Eve, in my opinion, did not have physical bodies of flesh and blood until after they ate of the Tree.

I disagree, but it's an interesting idea.

On a side note, no idiots have spoken up on this thread. That's surprising.

The abomination of desolation (*cough* murder) ye shall see stand in the HOLY place where it ought not. We all know the only one standing there is God Almighty. Thus the Wicked so disreguarded as being wicked. Jesus mentioned he would make the blind see and the ones who see be blind. Many must be blind because they dont see the truth.

Jez, your # 3 is incorrect. Eve wasnt thrown out, but could obviously go in and out of the garden since the whole knew again thing to cause Seth. And because of the flaming sword no one could eat of the tree of life. The real question is is whether or not Eve been one of that "one of us" and/or would not die even since only the story makes out Adam as the one who would die by going to be turned into dust.

I would think that Eve was cast out as well, because cherubim were guarding the Garden. So Eve wouldn't be able to get in or out.

Nice wording, 'to cause Seth.'