The "mystery" of the trinity

Originally posted by Shar
OK, what you got Is the water is the Father, the blood is Jesus and the spirit is the Holy Ghost. This is why you have verse 7 telling you these 3 are one. Again, you have to remember translations of the modern time. But, this is what that is saying.

yes, 3 are the ones witnessing....

did you check out the site that i put in the post?

Also, you have in the Book of Matthew chapter 28 verse 19

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Remember also again you have man who translated our Bible’s for us. It doesn’t mean it not true or not real. Too much evidence points to it being real. But, to take one verse and stick with it and try and Say God is not real, is no good. Satan’s whole agenda is too keep you and everyone else confused to the point they never except God and they go to hell with him.

a scripture that mentions the three in the same sentence does not a trinity make. nowhere in that scripture does it say they are one.

basically the trinity is not supported scipturally.

the three scriptures that possibly support duality are -

john 1:1 - which is mistranslated

john 10 - which jesus himself clarified

and 1 john 5:7,8 which is blantly changed later to support the trinity.

Try and read it as a whole. And don‘t knock something till you try it. For those of us who are saved we have the testimony of the change in our lives and the blessings we then receive and the feeling. Oh don‘t think you can‘t feel a change or feel God because let me tell you. You can..

feelings? or scriptures inspired by god?

i choose the scriptures. the church is riddled with pagan customs and worship. is it not pure.

the actions of the corrupt church are testiment to that

[edit on 2-5-2008 by miriam0566]

Again let me say that I said they are all 3 different. I don't know how other christains are. But I myself believe in The Father (God) Jesus His Son and the Holy Spirit. I didn't say they were in the same body. I said I believe in them and they think alike feel the same.

Also keep in mind you do not have to go to a church to be saved. God comes into the heart no matter where you are if you want Him.

Originally posted by Shar
Again let me say that I said they are all 3 different. I don't know how other christains are. But I myself believe in The Father (God) Jesus His Son and the Holy Spirit. I didn't say they were in the same body. I said I believe in them and they think alike feel the same.

lol, but this thread is about the trinity doctrine. which aserts that god jesus and the holy ghost ARE the same person.

I dont believe that Trinity is a central doctrine to christianity. The bible nevers Say that Jesus is God. OR that God is Jesus. In fact the bible says in the the ten commandments that tho salt worship only one God.

Jesus got down on his knees and prayed to God. What he was talking to himself. Jesus in bread of life said that God sent him. in bread of life he said this

FOR I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN NOT TO DO MY OWN WILL BUT THE WILL OF HIM WHOM OF SENT ME.

Jesus came down from heaven to do God's will no his own. Jesus also says that his father is greater than him. When Jesus die on the cross he said this.

MY FATHER MY FATHER why have YOU (GOD IN HEAVEN) FORSAKEN ME(JESUS ON EARTH). All over the gospels Jesus calls God his own father and God.

Dont tell me Jesus didnt pray, if Jesus prayed Jesus is not God. Jesus is the son of God. The father cannot be the son if he is the father nor can the son be the father if he is the son.

Jesus christ is the perfect manifestion of God. Jesus is devine and should be worship for the bible teaches us this. But that does not me Jesus is God. God gave all power in heaven to Jesus the bible teaches us this. Jesus is like a God, but that does'nt mean he is God. Jesus is a like a perfect twin of God. But Jesus prayed, he called God his own God. He says that he does God's will not his own. If jesus was God he would of never down any of these things.

reply to post by slymattb


you may want to actually read the OP

it sorta agrees with you

Sorry for the one liner what do you mean OP?

reply to post by slymattb


¨original post¨

reply to post by JesusisTruth


John 1, if you actually read it is talking about the person it is based on and named after, John the Baptist.
Sorry to ruin all your fun, but the first verses are talking about the spirit of prophesy that made the Baptist, the second coming, so to speak, of Elijah, to proclaim the coming of the Messiah and the Kingdom of God and the overthrow of the old system.

A slightly different interpretation than that of the Bible is presented in the Urantia book. According to the book the Paradise Deity is threefold in nature consisting of the Universal Father, The Eternal Son (not the same as Jesus) and the Conjoint Actor or Infinite Spirit (not to be confused with the Holy Spirit). As the book states, the Trinity facilitates the Father's escape from personality absolutism being from His nature an eternal and uncaused reality.

You might wonder what is Jesus and the Holy Spirit according to the book since they are not part of the Paradise Deity. Jesus belongs to a group of beings which originate from the Father and the Eternal Son while the Holy Spirit belongs to another group of beings which originate from the Infinite Spirit. Together the Holy Spirit or Divine Minister, as the book refers to it, and the Michael Son, the order of beings where Jesus belongs to, are responsible for the creation, development and care of a local universe, part of the cosmos.

Here is the link with the whole chapter regarding Paradise Trinity:

Paper 10: The Paradise Trinity

Alexandros

Originally posted by Alexander1111
A slightly different interpretation than that of the Bible is presented in the Urantia book. According to the book the Paradise Deity is threefold in nature consisting of the Universal Father, The Eternal Son (not the same as Jesus) and the Conjoint Actor or Infinite Spirit (not to be confused with the Holy Spirit). As the book states, the Trinity facilitates the Father's escape from personality absolutism being from His nature an eternal and uncaused reality.

You might wonder what is Jesus and the Holy Spirit according to the book since they are not part of the Paradise Deity. Jesus belongs to a group of beings which originate from the Father and the Eternal Son while the Holy Spirit belongs to another group of beings which originate from the Infinite Spirit. Together the Holy Spirit or Divine Minister, as the book refers to it, and the Michael Son, the order of beings where Jesus belongs to, are responsible for the creation, development and care of a local universe, part of the cosmos.

Here is the link with the whole chapter regarding Paradise Trinity:

Paper 10: The Paradise Trinity

Alexandros

the arguements here are not that trinities doent exist. we see them in pagan religions all the time. babylon had several trinities.ç

the arguement here is 2fold.

1. the bible does not support the trinity doctrine.
2. as such, the god of the bible is not a trinity

reply to post by Alexander1111


i read the link and also followed the link to biblical references. so i oquted some here.

010:00.02 Paradise Trinity 1 John 5:7 (Compare) "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

a scripture that is not found in ANY transcripts before the 4th century

the original scripture says ¨there are three that bear witness¨ nothing about the three being one.

010:00.02 Paradise Trinity 2 Corinthians 13:14 (Compare) "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

simply states the three. nothing about being one.

010:00.02 Paradise Trinity Acts 2:32-33 (Compare) "This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."

nothing in this scripture says they are one. in fact in can be used as proof of the opposite. god raised jesus from the dead (if they are the same, how is that possible). jesus is at god right hand (i posted a slew of scriptures that show the right hand as an important possition, doesnt mean one). jesus recieves holy spirit from the father (god recieves the promise of god from god?)

010:00.02 Paradise Trinity Matthew 28:19 (Same) "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

again, only mentioning the three

010:00.02 Trinity (Paul's early view) 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 (Compare) "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all."

one spirit, one lord, one god, three (1+1+1=3).... but nowhere does it say they are one person.



[edit on 18-5-2008 by miriam0566]

reply to post by miriam0566


I probably misunderstood what you were arguing on. Sorry for that... My intention when I posted the link wasn't exactly for people to read the Bible references, but the chapter from the Urantia book which offers a rather interesting approach to the issue. It isn't in any of my interests to examine the Bible and see if there is any evidence of the Trinity being three separate beings or a threefold being as I very much believe what the Urantia book says which clearly states that the Paradise Deity, that is God, is a threefold being, three dinstict persons united.

Alexandros

reply to post by Alexander1111


Your idea of God goes along with the "orthodox" view that came out of the Council of Nicea.
It said that God was three distinct personalities, united in that they were of the same substance.
They made up a new word to describe it, but it really only means substance, but in a spiritual sort of thinking.
I do not agree with the "orthodox" view and neither did the people.
The Bishops that supported that view were eventually thrown out, at the local level.
It was only after war from the Roman leadership, that they ended up with a majority of "orthodox" Bishops.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I was actually raised an Orthodox Christian, being a Greek, but don't really follow any particular religion apart from what Jesus taught: doing the will of God and serving human brotherhood, loving God as your Father and humans as your brothers and sisters.

Anyway, when I said that the three distinct persons of the Trinity are united, I didn't mean in terms of substance, but really united, enshrouding one another. In the book I am quoting it is stated that the Universal Father is completely enshrouded by the presence of the Eternal Son and the presence of the Eternal Son by that of the Infinite Spirit. The Deity adventure which is about the recognition and attainment of the three dinstict personalities of the Paradise Deity is one of the last tests, an ascending son (former human) must pass in order to attain Paradise and begin his eternal career of service as a perfected son of the Father...

This is getting off topic so I'll stop here.

Alexandros

reply to post by Alexander1111


I do not care, so much about being on topic.
I do not mean to say anything bad about the Orthodox Church.
I said orthodox, meaning the term used after the Council of Nicia.
It was specifically used to differentiate between the followers of Arius and the followers of Athenasius.
We were given the Athenasian Creed as a product of the Council.
Your book, you are citing, would go against the orthodoxy, as enforced by the Catholics.
The Council was convened in order to stop the discussion of the nature of God, among the common people.
The priesthood decided it was demeaning to God to have the subject discussed by people who were not authorized theologians.

[edit on 18-5-2008 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


Actually, even though I am not very knowledgeable as far as the Bible is concerned, which If I am not wrong is the source of truth and knowledge for most Christians, the book goes in quite a few occasions against Catholicism, Orthodoxy and generally Christianity, one of them being the persons who constitute the Paradise Trinity (I think I mentioned that in my first post in this thread).

What made me impression was the following that you wrote:

The Council was convened in order to stop the discussion of the nature of God, among the common people.
The priesthood decided it was demeaning to God to have the subject discussed by people who were not authorized theologians.

How arrogant and ignorant those supposed God-knowing priests must had been. As if God is a respecter of persons. Very sad...

Alexandros

This is a true story, but I bring it up because it goes so against what you believe, that you actually need to try to understand the nature of God.
I felt that way and got into it for a lot of years.
I have to say that I probably could not agree 100% on the subject, with anyone else.
I guess that is why you have to seek it out for yourself.
Each person will end up with their own understanding.
Whatever established religion exists, will always try to have a monopoly of knowledge.
It is wrong, but when you have a professional class, it will look out for its own interests.
That is human nature.
We have to rebel against the spirit of religious restraint on thought.
It is not only allowed, but required to seek God, on our own.

[edit on 18-5-2008 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by MatrixProphet

It's hard to comprehend and probably impossible to put in words.

Yet, one of the biggest reasons why Jesus came to earth was to help mankind to love and understand his father.

Could you please provide scriptural refences to support this view. I was always led to believe that His main purpose was to die for the forgiveness of sins. To provide a way for mankind to be reconciled to God, The Father.
Did I miss something. Please supply evidence for your contention.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by JesusisTruth

 

John 1, if you actually read it is talking about the person it is based on and named after, John the Baptist.
Sorry to ruin all your fun, but the first verses are talking about the spirit of prophesy that made the Baptist, the second coming, so to speak, of Elijah, to proclaim the coming of the Messiah and the Kingdom of God and the overthrow of the old system.

That is maybe the silliest thing I have ever heard; The book of John is really about John the Baptist. Oh, my ! thank you so much for clarifying that for me. I actually was under the inpression that the Gospel of John was written about Jesus Christ. :shk:

Originally posted by jmdewey60


I said orthodox, meaning the term used after the Council of Nicia.
It was specifically used to differentiate between the followers of Arius and the followers of Athenasius.
We were given the Athenasian Creed as a product of the Council.

I sure would like to know where you get your information because it is not correct. The first Council at Nicea was convened in 325AD and, although Athenasius was the chief critic of the Arian heresy, the Athenasian Creed did not originate until aproximately 500AD and Athenasius was not the author. Athenesian Creed

The final product of the Council in question was the Nicean Creed:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth]; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man; he suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven; and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

And in the Holy Ghost.
[But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable' — they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.]

Nicean Creed

Note that the word "catholic" is not capitalized and is not referring to the institution of the Roman Cathilic Church, which did not in fact exist yet .The proper definition would be:

So pervasive and all-inclusive as to exist in or affect the whole world.
Synonyms: cosmic, cosmopolitan, ecumenical, global, pandemic, planetary, worldwide,

Roget's Thesaurus

But, getting back to the Athenasian Creed; I believe it says exactly what I believe, as does the Nicean Creed, but in more depth and distiction. It is what I beleve every person who knows Christ believes.

Athenasian Creed