The "mystery" of the trinity

Originally posted by Shar
This is correct but you must understand that to know Jesus is to know God. They are one. They think alike. Have same laws and rules. Think of Jesus as your lawyer. He’s the one who talks to God the Father for you. When you pray, you pray to Him he interprets this prayer for you. The Holy Spirit is your comforter. Any one who is truly saved can feel the Holy Spirit. When your lonely or confused or down you can feel Him. When there is a right and wrong and your being pulled two different directions that is the Holy spirit and a demon fighting over you. Every time you let the demon win you get farther and farther away from the Lord. Every time the Holy Spirit wins you get Closer and Closer to God.

In the book of Moses the commandments, “No other Gods before Me” is so true. Look how many of us do have other Gods before Him though.

How many of us would rather worship the tv, a video game, a movie, money, over Him. How many of us don’t take the time to pray and talk to Him. How many of us don’t even acknowledge Him. Well then you are worshipping these idol objects as your God. You are putting them before Him. Making them more important. How many Satan worshippers are there? Again, another god a lesser god a god of hell over Him. How many people pray to Mary mother of Jesus, or to an Angel. Again, putting them as Gods over Him.

You have to remember the scripture says, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son….”

totally true up to here

That goes along with John 1:1 In the Beginning was the word and the word was God…. You see God knew He needed to speak with us so he made his word, Himself flesh. He made a Son. His only Son, then sent Him hear just to speak to us.

this unfortunatly doesnt make much sense.

1. the original greek doesnt say that happened.

2. why would god do that? the bible is very clear.... jesus is god's son, to hold on the the trinity is to attempt to fit it into the bible. plain and simple its just not what the bible is saying.

Originally posted by Shar
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Ok, you were talking about this also. There is always a witness for us. There is 3 in Heaven which is easy to understand. We have The Father (God) the Word (which we now know is Jesus) and The Holy Ghost.

Likewise we have 3 to bear witness for us here on earth. You have the Spirit which is your spirit. ( are you saved? Your spirit knows.) the water did you receive baptism? (the water knows) and the blood (are you saved) the purification of your blood upon being saved knows. Also, did a drowning occur in the water? It knows it’s a witness. Did your spirit do wrong or right? It’s a witness. Did blood get shed or spilled on the earth? It knows it’s a witness. All of these are witnesses to anything good or bad to what happens.

your right about the witness part but you still neglecting that fact that the scripture doesnt say that. it was altered after to accomidate the trinity

Again...why is it so important that they all be one? Why does no one answer that? Why is it so vital to protect this doctrine?

Are you all afraid that if this doctrine were to be proven by Jesus himself - that it is a falsehood, are you afraid how many other doctrines are false? Why does your faith hinge so much on this?

Is it not acceptable to take in new light, adjust our beliefs? Or are we like the Israelites who were called stiff necked?

I like the fact that they all have separate personalities, and it is easy to tell the difference if one steps away from dogmatic beliefs. They both; Jah and Jesus have different voices and personalities.

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Shar

your right about the witness part but you still neglecting that fact that the scripture doesnt say that. it was altered after to accomidate the trinity

My scripture says exactly that. So if you have an older scripture that is before the KJV and it dosen't say it please give me the link so that I may see it as well.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
Again...why is it so important that they all be one? Why does no one answer that? Why is it so vital to protect this doctrine?

Are you all afraid that if this doctrine were to be proven by Jesus himself - that it is a falsehood, are you afraid how many other doctrines are false? Why does your faith hinge so much on this?

Well I’m not for sure about other Christians. But, I myself do believe that God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit does have difference. Again, God is the Father. Very strict. Likes things pure you can see it in the old testament. He even prefers for our clothing to not be mixed like 50% cotton and 50% polyester he says to have it 100%. Why does that matter I don’t know it’s who He is. He tells us exactly what He likes and dislikes. What’s good for us to eat and not eat. Etc…

Now God (the word) became flesh (Jesus) came down to walk with us and talk with us to feel the way we feel to experience what we experience to see how it is exactly for us. So now He’s more understanding and takes your prayers to His Father and says what you are trying to say. He knows how hard everything is. He also knows how we just never understood what He was trying to tell us.

Then you have the Holy Spirit who is kind and gentle like a mother would be. Comforting you always making you feel good and protecting you. Telling you right from wrong.

Originally posted by Shar
My scripture says exactly that. So if you have an older scripture that is before the KJV and it dosen't say it please give me the link so that I may see it as well.

on page one of this thread

1 john 5:7,8 - And there are Three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that give testimony on earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one.

FINALLY! a scripture that is easy to understand! direct, simple and it says they are one. we have the trinity!

problem is, the scripture is a fake.

greek interlinear - "Because three are the (ones) bearing witness, the spirit and the water and the blood, and three into the one (thing) are.

doesnt even mention god, or the son. it doesnt say in heaven either. the king james version added that other bit in around the 15th century. there are theologians that would have killed to have a scripture like mentioned in king james, but i wasnt till later that we find it. most modern translations omit the added parts.

for a further discussion see www.answering-christianity.com...

Originally posted by Shar

Now God (the word) became flesh (Jesus) came down to walk with us and talk with us to feel the way we feel to experience what we experience to see how it is exactly for us. So now He’s more understanding and takes your prayers to His Father and says what you are trying to say. He knows how hard everything is. He also knows how we just never understood what He was trying to tell us.

psalms 103:[14] For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.

god doesnt need to come to earth to understand us, he made us. second, even you are talking as if they are two separate beings.

why would jesus need to bring anything to god if they are one?

reply to post by miriam0566


Again just putting words up without a link to where you are getting this is no good. Give a link to where you are receiving your information. As I have already said it is in the KJV. So if you have one that is older give the link.

If you are not a christain and you have never been saved you will never, ever understand anything I am saying to you.



[edit on 30-4-2008 by Shar]

Originally posted by Shar
reply to post by miriam0566

 

Again just putting words up without a link to where you are getting this is no good. Give a link to where you are receiving your information. As I have already said it is in the KJV. So if you have one that is older give the link.

If you are not a christain and you have never been saved you will never, ever understand anything I am saying to you.



[edit on 30-4-2008 by Shar]

go to google... type in greek interlinear...

it the christian scriptures in the original greek. you will find that it differs greatly from the scripture you were quoting.

also the link i provided (if you read my reply and the original post) shows secular proof that the scripture was tampered with.

if being saved means that im going to believe baloney like the trinity, then i dont want to be saved. the truth is enough for me

Ok just did it and its there.

www.scripture4all.org...

If I read this introduction to what you told me to look at this version was written in 1995. Using an 1881 and 1550 version of the greek. So you are not looking at an orginal like you may have thought.


John 1:1 almost word for word what the KJV says maybe they used a word "toward" rather than "with" however has the same meaning.





[edit on 30-4-2008 by Shar]

reply to post by miriam0566

if being saved means that im going to believe baloney like the trinity, then i dont want to be saved. the truth is enough for me

Being saved is extremly easy. John 3:16 a verse everyone knows sums it up.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Bottom line is if you believe in Jesus you will not perish.

Again Jesus says,

"Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.


Matthew 11:30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.

Now Paul tells us in Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In Romans chapter 10 verse 9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


So its really not hard. Its very easy. No matter what you feel and think right now. You will truly understand if you are saved. For those who are truly saved and prayers to God for understanding of His word it opens up very clear to you.





Ok, it’s more like for us to understand Him. He was here to teach us, exactly what His Father wanted from us. However, as you can see people still don’t care. Yes, He too learned what is was like to be flesh. He had sorrow and sadness the way we do. He was tempted the way we are. He cried as well. Until He showed us these things we had no clue who He really was.



Jesus having sorrow and sadness.
Mat 26:37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.

Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt].

Mat 26:40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

Mat 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.


Mat 26:43 And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy.

Mat 26:44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Mat 26:45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take [your] rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

Jesus being tempted.
Mat 4:1 ¶ Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

Mat 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Mat 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

Jesus hurt and He cried.


John 11:35 Jesus wept.


Again, though He was trying to get a very strong message across to us. To teach us and tell us about His kingdom and His Father. To tell us how to live. He didn’t ask for much from us. Just that we follow the commandments.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind

Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.



God Himself never looks upon sin. This is why Jesus talks to Him about us. Brings Him information for us. Even when Jesus was being hung and taking on all the sins of the world for us, God made it dark and turned not looking upon Him.


Mar 15:33 ¶ And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mar 15:35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard [it], said, Behold, he calleth Elias.

Mar 15:36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put [it] on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down
Mar 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

Mar 15:38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom
Mar 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God






[edit on 1-5-2008 by Shar]

Like I said in other post..

1 John..

" In the beggining was the (word), and the word was (with) God, and the word (was) God, and the word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us "


Notice it clearly says that the word was (with) God as being spereate entity yet it also says that same word (was) God

and was made flesh..

so if that seperate entity (was) God as it says and was with God, how can the trintiy not be true?

It is, but of course this person will spin this any way he pleases, but you souls who have sincerity can see how plain and clear this is, as even a 10 year old can understand this..

peace.

Ok, again its like this they think the same.

Like the borg. Have you ever seen star trek. No really its similar to that.

No its not science fiction just trying to give you an open example that you may understand.


It's like this, God. Jesus, the Holy Spirit and all His angels have one main agenda to SAVE YOUR SOUL!

Satan, the demons have all one main agenda to take YOUR SOUL FROM HIM. To take as many souls as he can with him to hell.

[edit on 30-4-2008 by Shar]

Originally posted by Shar
Ok just did it and its there.

www.scripture4all.org...

If I read this introduction to what you told me to look at this version was written in 1995. Using an 1881 and 1550 version of the greek. So you are not looking at an orginal like you may have thought.


John 1:1 almost word for word what the KJV says maybe they used a word "toward" rather than "with" however has the same meaning.

first off, this is not 1 john 5:7,8 that is the scripture that has been modified.

but ok you choose to look at this one. so, look at the interlinear for john 1:1

notice where it says "toward THE god". "The" or "ton". talking about a specific god. the god we know. like me saying "the moon", you know which moon im talking about. the article the makes it specific. notice its not in front of the second "god". hence it implies "A god". nonspecific.

now in verse one, i want you to look at the words for god. notice they are different in both cases. why is that

"a" doesnt exist in ancient greek.

in english, if i say "hand me the cup" (the), then i am talking about a specific cup. if i dont have a specific cup around, then i say "hand me a cup" (a).

in greek it is different. i would say "hand me the cup" for a specific cup. and i would say "hand me cup" for something nonspecific.

the same is here in 1:1. its a mistranslation. it should be, "the word was with god, and the word was A god.

if you like the say different, fine. but the original greek is staring you in the face.

now.... while you are at that site... download 1 john 5. www.scripture4all.org...

look at verse 7 and 8.

Originally posted by Shar
Ok, again its like this they think the same.

Like the borg. Have you ever seen star trek. No really its similar to that.

No its not science fiction just trying to give you an open example that you may understand.


It's like this, God. Jesus, the Holy Spirit and all His angels have one main agenda to SAVE YOUR SOUL!

Satan, the demons have all one main agenda to take YOUR SOUL FROM HIM. To take as many souls as he can with him to hell.

[edit on 30-4-2008 by Shar]

yes i agree... jesus said in john10 that him and the father are one (united)

i agree that thier agenda is the same and that they are in perfect harmony, but they are not the same person.

the scriptures clearly point to them being separate entities.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth


Notice it clearly says that the word was (with) God as being spereate entity yet it also says that same word (was) God

yes, clearly in english.. unfortunatly it was mistranslated

shar, im not ignoring your other post about being saved, i just dont have time at the moment to reply to it. forgive me.

i will try to reply tommarrow when i have the time for a well thought out answer

Yeah so I looked at 7 and 8. You have to look at 6 as well they all go together. You cannot take one verse out of the Bible and then say look at this. The verses all go together.

Remember too you are looking at an 1995 version of the 1881 version which came after the 1611 KJV. Also, keep in mind every time a translation is done its done in the modern language of the time period of how people speak. Words they use. I don't like it any more than you or anyone else. But, it's what we got and for the most part KJV 1611 is pretty much accurate. I find it a lot better than todays tranlations of things.


I do not read greek or ancient greek so all I have to go by is the english words under it. Do you read ancient greek?


[edit on 1-5-2008 by Shar]

But, it's what we got and for the most part KJV 1611 is pretty much accurate. I find it a lot better than todays tranlations of things.

for the most part yes.... not this scripture..

www.answering-christianity.com...

OK, what you got Is the water is the Father, the blood is Jesus and the spirit is the Holy Ghost. This is why you have verse 7 telling you these 3 are one. Again, you have to remember translations of the modern time. But, this is what that is saying.

Also, you have in the Book of Matthew chapter 28 verse 19

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Remember also again you have man who translated our Bible’s for us. It doesn’t mean it not true or not real. Too much evidence points to it being real. But, to take one verse and stick with it and try and Say God is not real, is no good. Satan’s whole agenda is too keep you and everyone else confused to the point they never except God and they go to hell with him.

Try and read it as a whole. And don‘t knock something till you try it. For those of us who are saved we have the testimony of the change in our lives and the blessings we then receive and the feeling. Oh don‘t think you can‘t feel a change or feel God because let me tell you. You can..



[edit on 1-5-2008 by Shar]