"If there were no God there would be no atheists."

i saw this quote in Whammy's sig, and thought i'd address it (not a jab at you, bwham, just a thing i want to talk about)

If there were no God there would be no atheists. - G. K. Chesterton

well...i'm going to have to disagree

without a concept of god there wouldn't be atheists...but whether or not something exists has no bearing on whether or not the concept does (dammit, this is why we need a philosophy forum!)

this is basically the sort of immature high-horse quote i see often that shows a horrible misunderstanding of...well....logic. both sides throw them out, but i just wanted to address this specific one because i see it so often.

without a concept of god there wouldn't be atheists...but whether or not something exists has no bearing on whether or not the concept does (dammit, this is why we need a philosophy forum!)

Yes. I have often thought that myself.

*sings*
I want my......
I want my...........
Pppppppppphilosophy forum..
*sings*



But yea I disagreed with that statement as well.
How could you disbelieve a concept you never thought of?
My thoughts on spiritualism aside.

reply to post by WraothAscendant


Look mr MTV...lololol

We all digress.

I think this is a scenerio of 'what if'?

If there wasn't this...there would be NO more that
If the sun didn't shine...the plant's wouldn't get photosynthesis

We can only 'suppose' things in life...therefore...

1. Either mankind is masters of their own fate
OR
2. Is an 'outward thingy' -controlling our destinies?

hmmm
~Ducky~

reply to post by TheDuckster

1. Either mankind is masters of their own fate
OR
2. Is an 'outward thingy' -controlling our destinies?

You forget option 3.

The 'outward thingy' isn't outward at all but wishes us to be the master of our own fate.
Or something like that.
I sure you get what I mean.

i notice the comments to be similiar to the whole conservative verses gay arguements...

oh you just attack us because your a closet gay!

it seems less of a convincing statement and more of a personal jab. (not speaking against you bwhammy)

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

without a concept of god there wouldn't be atheists...but whether or not something exists has no bearing on whether or not the concept does (dammit, this is why we need a philosophy forum!)

this is basically the sort of immature high-horse quote i see often that shows a horrible misunderstanding of...well....logic. both sides throw them out, but i just wanted to address this specific one because i see it so often.

Of course you Atheists are only referring to the concept of God. An incorrect one at that. If you knew the real God; you wouldn't be Atheists would you?

I think G.K. Chesterson obviously meant it in a humorous way that seems to have gone over your head. Yet it contains some deeper truth...

He is one of the few Christian thinkers who are equally admired and quoted by both liberal and conservative Christians, and indeed by many non-Christians.

en.wikipedia.org...

The reason I like it in my signature is that it speaks to the fact of how insecure atheists are in their supposed faith in Gods non existence. The inordinate amount of time Atheists spend on Christianity and the Bible is indicative of a profound insecurity in their Atheistic religion... as is this thread.

Fortunately for me, that is not that case... Atheists are people without faith, not necessarily without belief... It's like saying you don't believe in dirt... I wonder how many atheists believe in Aliens... lol

[edit on 25-4-2008 by ElectricUncleSam]

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Well. A little to start I can't say I blame them much, to start. But a great many go WAAAAYYYYYYY overboard and go on a warpath and in the end being no better than those that kinda pushed them down that path to begin with.
And throw out the baby with the bathwater so to speak.

What I am talking about is the sheer amount of BS any non-believer in Christianity gets at a early age in the good ole US of A. Hell even those that aren't all that strong in their "faith" is assaulted. Or those that take a different flavor of Christianity.
I know all to well what it is like. For a good part of my teenage years I HATED Christians for the sheer amount of crap I had to deal with just for quietly disagreeing, but not it should be noted seeking any sort of attention to that fact. But then I learned to separate the fools from the belief and judge on a individual basis rather than judge a group by individuals.
Some have not gotten as far as I have.

Simple fact of the matter is we ALL have some sort of belief on the subject and of course we ALL believe we are right. But we need to learn to tolerate a dissenting opinion because I hate to tell everyone but we are NEVER going to completely agree.

Not all atheists are out to disprove god. Just the noisy obnoxious self righteous ones. Just like the noisy obnoxious self-righteous theists out there out to prove their god.

[edit on 25-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]

reply to post by WraothAscendant

I know all to well what it is like. For a good part of my teenage years I HATED Christians for the sheer amount of crap I had to deal with just for quietly disagreeing, but not it should be noted seeking any sort of attention to that fact. But then I learned to separate the fools from the belief and judge on a individual basis rather than judge a group by individuals.

I was the same way. I even got kicked out of a Christian school I was in (for 1 year) for playing in a Rock band. I had complete disdain for religion in general. As I matured I started to see it was more about not liking the rules than it was about being "right". I guess deep inside I did believe, even when I had claimed I didn't - hard to say. I saw there is a lot more to life than the material world offers. By humbly approaching God, my eyes were opened to his reality. The ironic part is now I play electric guitar in a church

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


I agree with what you say but what if, and that is a big what if, there was no god there would still be atheists because atheism is the study and belief of science if i remember correctly. So in the end if there was no god there would still be science and there still would be atheism.


[edit on 26-4-2008 by LadyRaven]

Without God, everyone would be atheists:

Websters

Main Entry:
athe·ist Listen to the pronunciation of atheist
Pronunciation:
\ˈā-thē-ist\
Function:
noun
Date:
1551

: one who believes that there is no deity

Unless the point is that there is no concept of a God, in which case there would not only be no atheists, there would be no word theist. The concept would be null, and this discussion would really be pointless.

reply to post by Sublime620


Disclaimer: I'm a theist.

Sublime620 you say and I quote "Without God, everyone would be atheists: " and the nicely show what an atheist is [well done and no sarcasm intended ] . I would like to bring to your attention that the 2 linch pins here are that 1) you are basically saying "because of this then this is so" without providing a valid proof, which breaks because 2) I see the word "believes" as the 2nd linch pin, and it breaks for in fact there may actually be no pink holes out in space but I can defiantly "believe" in said pink spacial holes regardless, therefor making me a "Pinkholian!" even though the concept of "pinkholian" was null before I created it, it now has actuality as a unique word and it isn't pointless from a "Pinkholians" point of view!

wow, why does this have to be discussed???

Let souls believe what they will, and let it be... Atheist will not turn around unless they stay open minded.. The ignorant ones like the guy on HBO are the type that give nothing a chance and have made their minds up without knowing if God's real or not and that's because they like their lifestyle and don't want God to be real..

Now Madness, just let it go.. Let us have our faith and you have yours... We will see at death the truth and seriously time is running out, we are not getting younger, the world is predicted to hit WW3 soon and time goes so fast so we all will see after death..

I want you to keep an open mind that's it.. God is on your side, everybody sees God as a judgemental diety when he's not.. Think about puppy dogs, they have that unconditional love that is implanted in their beings and God did this to show us his love.. some animals he created for pets like this...

God gives us rules for our own good because he expects great things out of us, and great acts, and great love... But in the end he forgives fast and loves us beyond measure... I know this, I felt it in my heart...

and trust me my heart is dead most of the time...


as for the replies, i see much goofiness as expected and some wise things, but all in all as I expected..

and Ducky, come on women, you know God is real, don't refer to him as an outside thingy... you sound like a valley girl who's trippin over her own shoelaces from dufus disorder..

teasing...

we ALL need to mature into saints and angels.. remember the song, only the good die young???

That's not false.... because they reached perfection at a young age... so to my christian friends on here who do believe in God, let's NOW try and become perfect fastly because time is running out..


peace/

[edit on 26-4-2008 by JesusisTruth]

[edit on 26-4-2008 by JesusisTruth]

reply to post by JesusisTruth


You missed where he said this wasn't a jab huh?
Just something to discuss. Or do you feel that discussion is a bad thing?

reply to post by JesusisTruth


if you're going to come into my threads and post, at least remain on topic and stop preaching.

this thread is about a single statement, not about anyone's religious beliefs.

Atheism and Theism are like yin and yang, the two either exist together or don't exist, this is, they don't exist within the understanding of the people they don't exist in.

For example, if we (humans from Earth) were to visit another planet where no one believed in gods, to us they would be Atheists to them they would be no such thing, as Atheism doesn't exist neither would Theism.

[edit on 28-4-2008 by Edn]

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


" If there were no God, there would be no atheists "

Because we have free will, men will believe what they wish.

We can put a man on the moon, and there are men who will believe we didn't and those that will.

We can not put a man on the moon, and there will be men that swear we have covertly put a man on the moon, and those that wont.

As far as there being no Atheists, there is on little section in the Bible that addresses this issue and says pretty much that there wont be any.

Hebrews

"No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

Peace

This particular quote is from Where All Roads Lead by G. K. Chesterton from 1922. Seems like a very good quote for an atheist at first glance but if taken in context, it would seem to meen that if God did not exist then no one would.

Where All Roads Lead (1922)
G. K. Chesterton (Ignatius Press, 1990)
33 p. First reading.

Chesterton, who had long been a vocal defender of the Catholic foundations of Western civilization, was himself received into the Church in 1922. Shortly thereafter a series of short columns were published on both sides of the Atlantic in which he briefly set forth his reasons for converting. Those reasons were expanded and elaborated in his later books The Catholic Church and Conversion and The Thing, but the initial columns themselves were collected into this small volume entitled Where All Roads Lead.

cburrell.wordpress.com...

I say that a man must be certain of his morality for the simple reason that he has to suffer for it.
G. K. Chesterton
Shouldn't atheist have an equal obligation to explain pleasure in a world of randomness. Where does pleasure come from? –G.K. Chesterton

And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence.
--Bertrand Russell
Atheists express their rage against God although in their view He does not exist.
--C. S. Lewis
Atheism is a crutch for those who cannot bear the reality of God.
--Tom Stoppard

reply to post by RedmoonMWC


to address your quotes...

I say that a man must be certain of his morality for the simple reason that he has to suffer for it.
G. K. Chesterton

ok...absolutely no bearing on the other quote i provided.

Shouldn't atheist have an equal obligation to explain pleasure in a world of randomness. Where does pleasure come from? –G.K. Chesterton

atheism doesn't mean randomness, it means a lack of the supernatural. and pleasure is a very complex electrochemical reaction in your head.

And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence.
--Bertrand Russell

damn straight.

Atheists express their rage against God although in their view He does not exist.
--C. S. Lewis

further proof the cs lewis has no right to be quoted in civil discussion. he just makes inane bigoted quotes against atheists.

it would be like me making some random quote about theists and not baking it up. because i'm not a famous author, i'm not allowed to do it. because cs lewis is both a famous author and an apologist, he's praised for doing such idiotic things.

Atheism is a crutch for those who cannot bear the reality of God.
--Tom Stoppard

another member of the cs lewis club for people we really shouldn't quote because they make baseless statements to attack people they disagree with

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
another member of the cs lewis club for people we really shouldn't quote because they make baseless statements to attack people they disagree with

But didn,t you start the thread commenting on a quote?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i saw this quote in Whammy's sig, and thought i'd address it (not a jab at you, bwham, just a thing i want to talk about)

If there were no God there would be no atheists. - G. K. Chesterton

well...i'm going to have to disagree

Interesting

A man who has no knowledge of God stands in the woods one day and ponders if there is something greater such as a Universal Governance.

Is he an atheist or a theist?

I would postulate that sometimes people may think there is a God, and other times they fade. From atheist to theist.

Consider the highest imaginable Good for all.

Peace






[edit on 11-5-2008 by HIFIGUY]