Pope Benedict Solves Mystery of Pedophile Priests . . . Sort of

I have one question and i'll leave my personal thoughts out of it. Why are the priests that molested children not going to jail? I don't understand how this happens. Can anyone explain how they just got to pay the people off that got molested and the priest not go to jail?

Originally posted by johnsky
Bwahahahaha,

Thats the one constant with the Christian faith...

If you have a problem... blame someone else!


Don't try to solve the problem, just point the finger somewhere else, anywhere but at yourself.

I thought that the leader of this Christian religion might be able to hold himself above bigotry but... looks like he's just like the rest.

Pope Benedict Solves Mystery of Pedophile Priests . . . Sort of...but who is going to solve his Problem, he has a bigger Potato to Peel than the Potato Peeler.

Pope Benedict XVI's Questionable Qualifications. If Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger's involvement with the Hitler Youth and his stonewalling of the pedophile priests' scandal aren't enough to disqualify him from becoming pope, what would?
By Bill Berkowitz

www.scoop.co.nz...

reply to post by dreamsnatcher


They are going to jail? In fact, so far at least one priest was murdered in jail by angry prisoners..

Not sure where you got they where not. In most cases the priest is dead by now..

And the Church is handing out money.......

Actually I am not sure why the Church is handing out money, aside from being forced to.

Dubyakadubla:

Let me correct your abrasive ignorance for the rest of ATS'ers.

Pope Benedict XVI's Questionable Qualifications. If Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger's involvement with the Hitler Youth and his stonewalling of the pedophile priests' scandal aren't enough to disqualify him from becoming pope, what would?

The Nazi Youth programs where essentially no different then modern ROTC programs, albeit more militarized and, naturally, during war time, training the young men to be soldiers for the Father Land.

Ratzinger did not have a choice, as you and I have choices, and freedoms, and all that lovely bs.

Being in the Nazi Youth program in no way meant ANYONE was Antisemitic .. just as being a Nazi did not make you antisemitic nor any German soldier antisemitic..

In fact, only the upper echelons of German society knew of the concentration camps. It is not like Ratzinger was an SS storm trooper?

And to say that simply because he was German, and that he lived in the days of Germany, and he was fighting for all he knew, whether by force or not, that because he did this he does not deserve to be Pope...

Well my friend, you just expressed the same quality of ignorance that those in the upper echelons of German society did when they prosecuted Jews, Catholics, Gays, etc, etc, etc, etc..

ATS is growing tiering..

Originally posted by Equinox99
reply to post by The Nighthawk

 

Well there is actually a difference between following the Pope, and following the bible. A true Christian follows the teachings of Christ. A Catholic follows the teachings that the Pope tells them to follow. Big difference.

I don't need a Gucci wearing "holy man" telling me how to believe in my faith.

Your constant Catholic bashing is unreal, and I really hope you don't call yourself a "Christian." If you do, it is sad to see a so called Christian bash ANY religion...Not very Christian like at all.

Not all Catholic's are bad, as pointed out many times in this thread about all the abusers outside of the Catholic religion. The problem is not religion, it is PEOPLE. People do bad things, bottom line. I myself would not blame it on society, but the people that did it.

How many stories do we see about politicians, cops, doctor's, high up people etc. doing bad things? It has nothing to do with religions. ANY group in society is going to have bad people....Welcome to life.

You can also bash the Pope as much as you like. Catholic's would not follow the Pople if he preached something that went against the Bible. Your hatred is showing....You obviously know nothing about the Catholic religion and are generalizing all Catholic's. Let's not forget that the Catholic Church was the FIRST Christian religion.

All I know is as a Catholic, I don't talk down about anybodies religion...Even if you are not a Christian, the constant bashing of others faiths causes many problems in this world with your mentaility.

reply to post by Rockpuck


Thanks I don't really follow the on going saga it just seemed that no one was going to jail. It looked as if they just paid off the people and no one went to jail. Kinda like Michael Jackson. I didn't do anything but here is 20 million. The catholic church here in San Diego actually tried to go BK and not pay anyone.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
So why force the priest to be celibate?

It's a discipline, not a rule. Disciplines can be changed as the church requires. Rules can not. This discipline comes from St. Paul's suggestion in scripture that anyone who wishes to serve the Lord should do so while not married, therefore all his attention can be on serving God and not split with marriage, kids, etc.

But I think you knew that Rockpuck. I'm just yakking ... not preaching at ya'.

Originally posted by dreamsnatcher
Why are the priests that molested children not going to jail?

A lot are accused. But accusation doesn't mean guilt. If there is evidence then there will be a trial. Everyone who is accused is entitled to a trial. It's just that many of the accusers are saying these things happened 20 and 30 years ago. There are problems with evidence after that length of time as well as FALSE MEMORIES. It's a real psychological problem.

As Rockpuck pointed out .. others ARE in jail and in other cases $$$ has been awarded.

Oh .. and also as Rockpuck pointed out .... Ratzinger was part of the Hitler Youth because his parents signed him up ... as did ALL the parents at that time. Sign up your kid or you go to jail and your kid is left homeless on the streets to be killed. That Hitler youth thing is a nothing.



[edit on 4/22/2008 by FlyersFan]

Two Words:

Crimen sollicitationis

But what does it mean?

BBC

Crimen solicitationis is indicative of a worldwide policy of absolute secrecy and control of all cases of sexual abuse by the clergy. You've got a written policy that says that the Vatican will control these situations and you also have I think clear written evidence of the fact that all they are concerned about is containing and controlling the problem.

Nowhere in any of these documents does it say anything about helping the victims.

The only thing it does is say that they can impose fear on the victims and punish the victims for discussing or disclosing what happened to them.

It's all controlled by the Vatican and at the top of the Vatican is the Pope so Joseph Ratzinger was in the middle of this for most of the years that Crimens was enforced he created the successor to Crimen and now he is the Pope this all says that the policy and systematic approach has not changed.

Cardinal Ratzinger, now as Pope, could tomorrow get up and say: 'Here's the policy: full disclosure to the civil authorities, absolute isolation and dismissal of any accused and proven and convicted clerics, complete openness and transparency, complete openness of all financial situations, stop all barriers to the legal process and completely co-operate with the civil authorities everywhere.'

So here is a hint for all you young catholic boys and girls:

reply to post by Souljah


Thanks souljah - I had posted this in another thread quite recently (referencing your original thread) but had hoped someone else would post it this time as I didn't want to "over egg the pudding"

A great thread, and I would recommend it as a good read

Originally posted by dreamsnatcher
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

Thanks I don't really follow the on going saga it just seemed that no one was going to jail. It looked as if they just paid off the people and no one went to jail. Kinda like Michael Jackson. I didn't do anything but here is 20 million. The catholic church here in San Diego actually tried to go BK and not pay anyone.

I suspect part of the confusion you may have is because no one has mentioned the long-standing agreement between the Catholic Church and nearly every civilized country in the world. The Catholic Church has its own legal system. Priest and the ordained are subject to Vatican Law and most countries try to allow that legal system to work before imposing its own local laws. Many hold a dual citizenship in the Catholic 'national' structure - the Vatican, and the countries of their birth. Whose law they fall under *first* is often hotly debated.

This of course doesn't always work out well for the communities, who often see an accused clergyman 'whisked' away and never heard from again - so they can't verify that any punitive actions were taken (that's why priests accused of pedophilia were often 'moved' to different parishes (far away mostly) after they did whatever Vatican Law told them to do for penance (be it retreat in prayer, or whatever they do for punishment). But if they are 'pedophiles' first (i.e. predators who 'invested' in the church to have access to children) they will just resume their crimes elsewhere. If they were 'victims of sinful temptation' from the religious point of view they can be forgiven and never do it again (trust in faith and forgiveness is a HUGE factor there - one that families and communities can't be compelled to follow.) They move the priest to give them an opportunity to make good of themselves, which is something you really can't do where you are a known offender. Also, if the priest stayed local an aggrieved parent of friend could kill him - thus ending hid opportunity to make right what was wrong, AND precipitating ANOTHER criminal act - murder. It's a lose - lose for the church - hence their insistence on being the executor of clerical law for the clergy (part of separation of church and state).

This doesn't make it right - it makes it harder for the victim looking for justice and protection - as well as a reckoning.

This is actually the most exacerbating aspect of the problem - our legal system often (not always) 'yields' to the church's traditional legal system - the difference is our legal system (juris prudence) is based on punishment and rehabilitation (there's a rank joke in there, but I don't want to digress) - whereas the Catholic Church relies on Vatican Law which must, by its own precepts, have faith in the power of 'forgiveness'. The two approaches are obviously not very mutually compatible.



[edit on 22-4-2008 by Maxmars]

reply to post by Maxmars

Priest and the ordained are subject to Vatican Law and most countries try to allow that legal system to work before imposing its own local laws.

Where the hell do people get this crap? Seriously? That is a blatantly false statement. Priest are conducted according to National, State, Local laws before "Vatican law" ..

Many hold a dual citizenship in the Catholic 'national' structure - the Vatican, and the countries of their birth.

Lol, wow, really letting your ignorance shine through huh?

To be a CITIZEN of the Vatican, one must be BORN IN THE VATICAN! You cannot Immigrate to the Vatican. You can live there, you can work there, but you are not a Citizen, you do not hold Duel Citizenship.

who often see an accused clergyman 'whisked' away and never heard from again - so they can't verify that any punitive actions were taken (that's why priests accused of pedophilia were often 'moved' to different parishes (far away mostly) after they did whatever Vatican Law told them to do for penance (be it retreat in prayer, or whatever they do for punishment).

They where moved because the Church when they found out feared if the priest stayed there any longer then the community would eventually come forward and accuse the priest.

Aside from that, it is possible that in many cases the Church had no idea a priest was abusing some parishioners because in the Catholic Church, at least in America, priest are moved from parish to parish on average every 3 years..

Very rarely does a parish keep the same priest for to long.

our legal system often (not always) 'yields' to the church's traditional legal system

America, one of the most anti-Catholic populations "yields" to the Church? almost funny.

whereas the Catholic Church relies on Vatican Law which must, by its own precepts, have faith in the power of 'forgiveness'. The two approaches are obviously not very mutually compatible.

This has nothing to do with it.. the reasons the priest where covered up by the Church is that the Church knew exactly what would happen if people found out.. and the knew that American's have a tendency, when a wrong is done to them, to bring civil cases against institutions in the form of class action lawsuits.

The Church was trying to protect its reputation, protect its assets.

Doesn't make it right at all, it was greedy and immoral but it had nothing to do with what ever the hell your talking about..

Originally posted by Comsence2075

Originally posted by Equinox99
reply to post by The Nighthawk

Well there is actually a difference between following the Pope, and following the bible. A true Christian follows the teachings of Christ. A Catholic follows the teachings that the Pope tells them to follow. Big difference.

I don't need a Gucci wearing "holy man" telling me how to believe in my faith.

Is this directed at me? Because those aren't my words.

Your constant Catholic bashing is unreal, and I really hope you don't call yourself a "Christian." If you do, it is sad to see a so called Christian bash ANY religion...Not very Christian like at all.

I would point out that anti-Semitism and hatred of Muslims, Wiccans, Catholics, etc. is preached DAILY on religious TV channels. It's often veiled as "concern" for those who haven't "accepted Jesus" into their lives, but make no mistake, it's intended to set up the Us vs. Them.

Not all Catholic's are bad, as pointed out many times in this thread about all the abusers outside of the Catholic religion. The problem is not religion, it is PEOPLE. People do bad things, bottom line. I myself would not blame it on society, but the people that did it.

Absolutely. But, the Catholic Leadership exacerbated the situation by moving the offenders around and shielding them from prosecution. Whether their motives be a genuine attempt at spiritual rehabilitation or a dirty trick to cover up wrongdoing matters not. It was wrong either way. What bothers me is that I have known many, MANY Catholics who actually buy into the "conspiracy" theories Ratzinger forwarded as a Cardinal, and now slaver to believe this new lie, because they truly can't reconcile the possibility that their beloved spiritual leaders might be wrong about something.

How many stories do we see about politicians, cops, doctor's, high up people etc. doing bad things? It has nothing to do with religions. ANY group in society is going to have bad people....Welcome to life.

Again, absolutely. Some are just better at hiding it than others. Hell, Rush Limbaugh got caught with a bottle of Viagra prescribed in someone else's name, coming back from the Dominican Republic--known as a haven for child sex slavery. Does it mean he's guilty? Not necessarily, but one certainly has to wonder.

You can also bash the Pope as much as you like. Catholic's would not follow the Pople if he preached something that went against the Bible.

There's a whole separate sect that believes itself to be the "True" Catholic Church, with their own Pope, whose basis for belief is that the "Mainstream" Catholic Church has strayed too far from Scripture--especially after the Vatican II conference.

Your hatred is showing....You obviously know nothing about the Catholic religion and are generalizing all Catholic's. Let's not forget that the Catholic Church was the FIRST Christian religion.

Again, I'm not sure if this was dircted at me, but I've already acknowledged that the RCC was first, and besides, I was born, baptized, and raised Catholic. I went to a Catholic school (at great expense to my widowed mother), sang in the choir and was even an altar boy for a couple years. I finally gave up on it when I decided institutionalized religion in any form is just as dirty and corrupt as any secular institution.

All I know is as a Catholic, I don't talk down about anybodies religion...Even if you are not a Christian, the constant bashing of others faiths causes many problems in this world with your mentaility.

Try being something out of the "mainstream", like Wiccan, and try walking down a street in small-town America wearing a pentacle. See how long it takes for some jerk to start crapping in your cornflakes for being a "Devil Worshipper". See how hard it is to get a job, where if you'd worn a cross instead you'd be welcomed with open arms. See how differently the cops treat you. See how you're treated just shopping in a store, immediately suspect as a theif and a scumbag because you're one of "Them". After you've done that come back and tell me how bad Christians really have it. They run more in this country than you know, and just because people in some media "bash" them (more than half, I'd say, is usually the truth, from my Catholic upbringing and experiences with the Assemblies of God ministries) doesn't mean they're "persecuted". Until some fat backwoods hick cop is threatening you with violence for the horrible crime of walking down the street in broad daylight just because your religious symbol is different from his, you don't know what religious persecution is.

[edit on 4/22/2008 by The Nighthawk]

[edit on 4/22/2008 by The Nighthawk]

reply to post by budski


In this article is refers to materialistic pope...
To go with that... the Pope just released 7 new deadly sins...
One is against the "OBSCENELY RICH"...

Here is s nice Fox news clips discussing them...

www.foxnews.com...

Now if that isn't the POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS...

Considering the Catholic church is at the least ONE of the richest entities on earth...

I went to catholic schools and church as a child but as an adult can not agree with there views at all...

I feel they have billions of dollars and sit there and let half the world STARVE TO DEATH...

What is wrong with that picture

Originally posted by The Nighthawk
There's a whole separate sect that believes itself to be the "True" Catholic Church, with their own Pope, whose basis for belief is that the "Mainstream" Catholic Church has strayed too far from Scripture--especially after the Vatican II conference.

The group you are referring to is the St. Pius X group.
Mel Gibson is one of them.
And no .... they did not break from the Catholic church because they believed that the Catholics had strayed too far from Scripture. They broke with the Catholic Church after Vatican II because of NOVUS ORDO. The New Order of the Mass. Novus Ordo is NOT the same mass as before Vatican II and there was a pronouncement by Pope Pius V that the Mass was never supposed to change. Pope Paul LIED and told the people that the NOVUS ORDO (which is now used) was the same mass as what had been in the Catholic Church since Pope Pius V.

It definately is NOT the same mass. The Pius X group is 100% correct. They very well could be the remnant true Catholic Church.

My husband and I have been looking into this for a few years. We sometimes go to their masses even though they are excommunicated. Their mass is the real mass. The real deal. However, they go over the top with too many other things (all the women wear hats or scarves .. etc).

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Maxmars

 

Priest and the ordained are subject to Vatican Law and most countries try to allow that legal system to work before imposing its own local laws.

Where the hell do people get this crap? Seriously? That is a blatantly false statement. Priest are conducted according to National, State, Local laws before "Vatican law" ..

I thought this is a diplomatic courtesy, just because you don't 'see it' doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If you think that was false, how can you say "National, State, Local laws before 'Vatican law'"? - You must know that how a person is charged is something the local authorities barter and compromise on all the time. Isn't that where the whole 'change of venue' thing started in the first place? Also, what's with the hostility - you never before appeared the type to go on the whole "I hate all ignorant statement rampages" correct me if I'm wrong, but where's this coming from?

Many hold a dual citizenship in the Catholic 'national' structure - the Vatican, and the countries of their birth.

Lol, wow, really letting your ignorance shine through huh?

To be a CITIZEN of the Vatican, one must be BORN IN THE VATICAN! You cannot Immigrate to the Vatican. You can live there, you can work there, but you are not a Citizen, you do not hold Duel Citizenship.

Was the Pope BORN in the Vatican? How many people are actually BORN there I wonder? Citizenship is 'granted' all the time (meaning places all over the world) with the place of birth being a formality. I may be wrong, but it is you who appear to be waxing ignorant here. Also, there is a Court of the Church and the only people it charges and tries are clergy - or am I wrong here as well?

They where moved because the Church when they found out feared if the priest stayed there any longer then the community would eventually come forward and accuse the priest.

Aside from that, it is possible that in many cases the Church had no idea a priest was abusing some parishioners because in the Catholic Church, at least in America, priest are moved from parish to parish on average every 3 years..

Very rarely does a parish keep the same priest for to long.

Well, if they didn't 'know' the priest was abusing parishioners, why would they 'need' to move them at all?

Also, at least in my neck of these woods, lots of priests serve in the same parish for decades at a time, they only move if their order decides they are needed elsewhere - which around here anyway isn't that common at all.

our legal system often (not always) 'yields' to the church's traditional legal system

America, one of the most anti-Catholic populations "yields" to the Church?

almost funny.

It isn't about the population (or the media's portrayal of them) its about diplomacy. The church didn't simply 'sit on' these pedophilia cases, the states failed to prosecute them in a timely manner as well. The states are equally guilty of reneging on protecting the community too - they could have 'fought' the church's lack of action, but 'chose' not to.

whereas the Catholic Church relies on Vatican Law which must, by its own precepts, have faith in the power of 'forgiveness'. The two approaches are obviously not very mutually compatible.

This has nothing to do with it.. the reasons the priest where covered up by the Church is that the Church knew exactly what would happen if people found out.. and the knew that American's have a tendency, when a wrong is done to them, to bring civil cases against institutions in the form of class action lawsuits.

The Church was trying to protect its reputation, protect its assets.

Doesn't make it right at all, it was greedy and immoral but it had nothing to do with what ever the hell your talking about..

I expect that you have a terrible hatred for the organization, and I don't blame you. I was trying to share the things I have been taught, and if they're wrong I appreciate the correction. But I can't believe that somewhere in the bowels of the Catholic Church there are people (or is a person) wringing their hands gleefully planning how to circumvent justice and thus support abuse. Maybe you do see that, but at some point there has to be a line drawn in your generalizations, I accept that there are evil-minded men in the Church, I don't accept the the Church is evil-minded.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Maxmars

 

Many hold a dual citizenship in the Catholic 'national' structure - the Vatican, and the countries of their birth.

Lol, wow, really letting your ignorance shine through huh?

To be a CITIZEN of the Vatican, one must be BORN IN THE VATICAN! You cannot Immigrate to the Vatican. You can live there, you can work there, but you are not a Citizen, you do not hold Duel Citizenship.

I stand corrected. A bit of further research into this made me realize that I was basing my statement on a few specific cases and it does not apply generally.

There are only some church officials who hold a 'dual' citizenship status and for the most part what I said was absolutely incorrect.

I apologize for the blatant falsehood. I didn't intend to propagate falsehoods.

[edit on 22-4-2008 by Maxmars]

[edit on 22-4-2008 by Maxmars]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
The group you are referring to is the St. Pius X group.
Mel Gibson is one of them.
And no .... they did not break from the Catholic church because they believed that the Catholics had strayed too far from Scripture. They broke with the Catholic Church after Vatican II because of NOVUS ORDO. The New Order of the Mass. Novus Ordo is NOT the same mass as before Vatican II and there was a pronouncement by Pope Pius V that the Mass was never supposed to change. Pope Paul LIED and told the people that the NOVUS ORDO (which is now used) was the same mass as what had been in the Catholic Church since Pope Pius V.

It definately is NOT the same mass. The Pius X group is 100% correct. They very well could be the remnant true Catholic Church.

I am aware of the difference in Mass, I just couldn't remember what they called the change. And I agree it is mainly based on breaking with the traditional structure of the Mass.

But, I think it illustrates an important point: Catholics, for the most part, accepted the change. Pope Paul may indeed have lied but most don't seem to care. The statement was made that Catholics would not accept the Church straying too far from Scripture; the Mass, along with the included Communion, being arguably the most important regular ritual in which Catholics partake, has been radically altered from its traditional form--and the majority accepts the change and goes along with it. Most don't even question it. I was raised with it as it is now. This fact leads me to doubt Catholics as a whole would "give up" on the Church for changing other things, especially considering any such changes would likely be "phased in" to lessen their impact. And, frankly, with all the documents the Church has in its archives, who's to say there isn't something in there directly contradicting the known, Canonical Scriptures anyway? How would we know if there was? Maybe the movie "Stigmata" is prophetic and there's an actual Gospel of Jesus among all those dusty tomes...

My husband and I have been looking into this for a few years. We sometimes go to their masses even though they are excommunicated. Their mass is the real mass. The real deal. However, they go over the top with too many other things (all the women wear hats or scarves .. etc).

Having left the Church I've considered having myself excommunicated. I'm told it can be done, and as I'm of the opinion that one's spiritual journey is tied to one's belief system (Heaven is what you make of it, essentially) breaking my bonds with that system allows me freedom to walk the path I really believe. I've been told that as long as one is baptized Catholic one is bound to the rules and ritual of the Church (and therefore fully responsible in the Afterlife for leaving it behind). Then again, how does any of this really work? Does any one group or institution truly have a "lock" on the Afterlife? Do Catholics have authority over the true teachings of Jesus? Do Baptists? Mormons? I asked this in a thread about Biblical truth, and never recieved any kind of acceptable answer: If we are to accept the Bible as an objective truth, how do we define the Bible?

[edit on 4/22/2008 by The Nighthawk]

Originally posted by sapphirearaidia
To go with that... the Pope just released 7 new deadly sins...
One is against the "OBSCENELY RICH"...
puz:

Actually, the pope did no such thing. A cardinal at the Vatican, who is in charge of getting Catholics to confession, made them up. They are all PC and push guilt feelings on people who litter and who make money etc etc. The Pope absolutely DID NOT 'release 7 new deadly sins'.

And as for those new so-called deadly sins... :shk: They are just left wing PC crap. It even looks like the cardinal is pushing some marxism as well.

Dumb.

Originally posted by The Nighthawk
Catholics, for the most part, accepted the change. Pope Paul may indeed have lied but most don't seem to care.

They accepted the change because they don't know a change happened.
They just believed Pope Paul when he lied and said it was the same mass.

Major conspiracy!!

Two excellent books that expose this are -

"The Ottaviani Intervention" and "the Problems with the Prayers of the Modern Mass" I think TAN sells them ... if anyone is interested in a big conspiracy!! (and considering this is a conspiracy site .. there may be )

Originally posted by FlyersFan

And as for those new so-called deadly sins... :shk: They are just left wing PC crap. It even looks like the cardinal is pushing some marxism as well.

Dumb.

That's funny, everything I've read of Jesus' teachings is pretty left-wing. Help the poor, denouce materialism, heal the sick, turn the other cheek, seek only peace, love your enemies, put the needs of others above your own selfish desires... Jesus was a Liberal, people. All Christians, if they truly follow Christ, should be Liberal too.

But I know this falls on deaf ears among the Rabid "Right" on these forums, and I'm sure I'll be reading dozens of posts telling me how wrong I am, because God knows we can't actually be expected to practice what gets preached to us, even if it comes from the Man Himself. It's just too damn inconvenient.

reply to post by The Nighthawk


Jesus was a Liberal? lol...

Liberalism leads to:

Dissolving of moral standards.
Marxist ideologies that bring everyone to a standarized poverty.
Atheism.
Disregard for religious tradition.
A "greying" of the people.
Destruction of culture and national identity.
Apathy and appeasement.
Tolerance of degenerative lifestyles.
Fear.
Stronger centralized governments.
Increased taxation.
And Totalitarian government regimes (most dictatorships are "Liberal")
Communism.
Destruction of personal liberties such as:
Free Speech.
Right to bare Arms.
Freedom of Religion.

But hey, Jesus was a Marxist alright.



Liberalism:
Ruining the nation, the world, all while atop a self righteous pedestal of self glorification and lofty moral opinion.