If we are to fail, let us fail as men

The words of Prime Minister Lord North as he addressed the Commons during the American revolution.

Why do British troops sit there in Iraq? Why does the government allow them to do nothing? And will Gordon Brown put up one last fight to save the honour of our national army...

Answer, no.

We can sit and debate about the war, but the argument about the reputation of this once proud nation is dead. The battle of Rorke's Drift, where 139 British soliders stood and defend their lives against 4,000–5,000 Zulu warriors is not the same army that stands before us.

Our army is just a laughing stock of the world.

A once proud Royal Navy that everyone feared is now a group of individuals who will surrender to Iranian forces. What makes me sick, and even emotional sad, is seeing government ministers talk about the proud British and how we stood up to the Nazi's and yet spending, equipment and benefits are cut to the army.

In the United States, the army are celebrated without trying to gain political points or votes. In the United Kingdom, the politically correct and left wing trade unions will protest against the military talking to school children about joining the army. Soldiers will be spat on and told not to wear uniform because it will upset certain communities within the United Kingdom.

What has happened to Britain? To this government, I simply repeat the words of Oliver Cromwell;

“you have been sat to long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, i say, and let us have done with you. In the name of god, go!.”

I think we have to separate the political control of our armed forces and their execution on the ground.

I would disagree that the British Military is the laughing stock of the world. We still have some of the best special and elite forces in the world.

I believe that your military are constrained in their operations by the political controls placed on them.

We need to fight back against the politically correct. I am proud of what our military are doing. It is the political leadership (or lack of it) that we need to bring to account.

reply to post by infinite


I don't think our armed forces are the laughing stock of the world at all. They certainly are under-funded and under-equipped (as I have been saying since I joined ATS), but they most certainly are not a push over.

Freedom ERP mentions our special forces, and indeed he is right. But the average soldier, sailor and pilot are also amongst the best trained and most respected anywhere. They show great courage against some very, very tough enemies (both abroad and, sadly, at home too) and have my complete and utter respect. Mind you, both my grandfathers were in the RAF and I have an uncle who was in the Royal Marines. Maybe I'm a bit biased, but I've heard first hand what our armed forces have to do to keep this country safe and it makes me so angry when people show them contempt for simply doing their job.

I think our defence spending should be increased to an absolute minimum of 3% of GDP, at least for a few years. This will mean that the navy gets their subs, destroyers and carriers, the RAF get their Typhoons and transport aircraft and the Army gets their helicopters, basic equipment and armoured transport vehicles. The size of our armed forces also clearly needs to be increased to meet commitments around the globe.

Why do we no longer have national service? All the so-called "wasters" could be made into productive, better individuals by service I should think.
This would increase the size of the army quickly and easily.

Originally posted by Nemiro
Why do we no longer have national service? All the so-called "wasters" could be made into productive, better individuals by service I should think.
This would increase the size of the army quickly and easily.

You would first have to increase the budget for your military. Those 'wasters' would still have to be paid.

Are you advocating for higher taxes?

There was an article in one of the newspapers concerning the treatment of the deceased servicemen, comparing the way ours are treated to that of canada.

For example; In Canada they had an escort, whilst in the U.K they sat in gridlock.

We do have highly trained personel, but that doesn't mean nothing if they aren't treated with respect by the people who are supposed to be leading them.

[edit on 15-4-2008 by Anti-Tyrant]

I wouldn't worry about the integrity of your military, except for the sociopaths giving them orders

Originally posted by pavlovsdog

You would first have to increase the budget for your military. Those 'wasters' would still have to be paid.

Are you advocating for higher taxes?

I forgot that part. A wild thought here.... Would it not just balance out? Instead of paying them for sitting on their arse (not talking about people with no choice but to be on benefits) we would be paying them to defend their country.
The taxes to provide benefits must be pretty high... (don't quote me on that )

reply to post by Nemiro


Nope, because paying for more uniforms, guns, vehicles, bases and training etc. costs a lot more than just handing them benefits. Add to that the fact that Army is a professional organisation and doesn't want the hassle of dealing with thousands of conscripts who don't want to be there and there's a pretty convincing reason not to draft them. The armed forces are overstretched enough as it is, without having to deal with national servicemen too.

It's best to find jobs that actually generate wealth (i.e. in the employment of private companies), since this gives extra revenues to the government to make up for the money spent on welfare.

reply to post by infinite

A once proud Royal Navy that everyone feared is now a group of individuals who will surrender to Iranian forces. What makes me sick, and even emotional sad, is seeing government ministers talk about the proud British and how we stood up to the Nazi's and yet spending, equipment and benefits are cut to the army.

The same thing is happening in the US, if the conservatives where not in charge right now, the military would have launched a few cruise missiles at Afghanistan and that would have been that.. military funding would have continued to be cut as it was under our last Liberal president.

Even though the war for America is expensive, equipment for troops is still a hot debate, and in the end, its the men over seas who loose.

In the United States, the army are celebrated without trying to gain political points or votes.

Not so true, many politicians go to military bases to try and tell the men and women there they support them.. its all bs, they don't care.. and that is regardless of political alignment.

In the United Kingdom, the politically correct and left wing trade unions will protest against the military talking to school children about joining the army.

Same as America mate.. in fact, San Fransisco kicked the military out of the city for recruiting.. in several colleges this has also happened, including ROTC programs being canceled because politically correct liberals don't like our military.

What has happened to Britain? To this government

This is happening in America, Britain, France, Germany.. to the entire Western World.. politically correct liberals are undoing the fabric of culture and society.. we will go the way Rome went, divided by cultures and politics. We will continue to sacrifice who we are, learn to be ashamed of our government and our histories all for the sake of pleasing people who don't belong unassimulated anyways.

Infinite mate......

Your correct about the army's current state, its kit is sub standard, our troops are being paid pittance, thier living in squallor half the time (And by that I mean Her Majesty's home bases!) and add to that we can still pay for good old William to learn to be a tank driver....despite never being allowed to actually serve on deployment in the regiment he trained to be in!

The Navy is no better off, we're down to a surface fleet of 91 ships....most of them anti mine ships...why I have no idea but thier there! However.....as for the situation of our forces surrendering to the Iranians.....could you imagine what would have been said if they did resist?

Its a sorry state. I mean, our state is in a bloody mess!

The whole British army could fit into the new Wembley stadium.

Our troops are not respected, and the military covenant hasnt been broken- it has been raped and defiled. The living quarters of our troops are below the standard given to delinquents as council housing.

Gurkhas, who are our army's most loyal and ferocious fighting troops (some say the best in the world), aren't allowed to come and settle in the country after a lifetime of service; while immigration from unwanted entities goes unchecked.

Body armour is not standard issue to our soldiers in a warzone. What a shambles. LSW rifles are in short supply- the army actually requisitioned the LSW rifles from my old school to take into combat in Iraq.

Pay for soldiers is below inflation. Honour bestowed to soldiers is minimal. They can't even wear their uniform with pride due to bloody idiots hassling them.

And yet, our troops are fighting on loyally. I wouldn't blame them if they tried a military coup, a-la Cromwell. I would almost welcome it.

Not living there, I had no idea this was transpiring...

Want a Patriotic Americans View?

Good... Here you go...

I have always celebrated my English roots... With pride...

I remember some of the best times in my life, sitting on top of "Bald Knob" that to me was the top of the world and reading such classics as "The Charge of the Light Brigade" and Shakespeare's "Henry V"... "We Few, We Happy Few"...

Words and courage to live by...

The British Military, Royal Navy and SAS, all heroes of my youth and young adulthood. I trained a couple of times with the British Royal Marines and I am here to tell you they are FINE examples of warriors and comrades!!!!

I am sorry to hear of what is happening there and I am here to tell you that YOU have everything to be proud of and nothing to be ashamed about.

I still believe that if tragedy ever struck, the British could again be counted on to stand when others could not or would not!!!!

From one humble U.S. Marine, a HEARTY HOORAH to you all!!!