What data would you take to present to a Christian...

This is something that I have often thought of bringing up. However, I don't want to randomly accept the data that can be found on the web. There is so much out there that is unsubstantial and has no proof to back it.

What kind of data, ancient stories and such, that can be proven would you suggest as valid arguments for the creation of the Christian religion?

Why I am asking this is because I have found more and more evidence out there pointing to the fact that the faith I have grown up believing in very likely is a lie. Or at least many of the 'key' parts are stories that have been absorbed from much older civilizations.

I have found that there are so many contradictions within the Bible that I can't even believe I never saw them before. I have always been taught that the Bible is perfect and that it is the only religious book that never contradicts itself. A lie.

I guess what I am asking for are the best stories that resemble the life of Jesus that this faith has been based on that date back to earlier than the so-called era of Christ.

I am also asking for people to point out the many contradictions within the Bible that they have come across. Including the books that have been left out. We hear the Christian stories of the giants and such yet we only see a small portion of the Book directed at them. Yet there are books that were left out that go into greater detail. Why were they left out?

I would like counters to these questions as well by our Christian friends. Try to convince me that I am not making a mistake by questioning what I now believe to be a string of lies tied together from mutliple previous religions and/or beliefs.

Thank you all ahead of time for your efforts on this.

reply to post by dariousg


hello There

Sad to hear how you feel

Anyhow,

if you would like to propose a contradiction i'm happy to have a go and putting your worries to ease.

you can U2U if you wish?

That said,

With God faith DOES play the major part

Ive been in a similar position i feared this that and the other, stumbling if you wish, doubting. We are human after all. I have cried out and still do for the truth, the Lord God ALWAYS comes up trumps.

Fire away my friend, i may not know the answers off the bat but im prepared to put the time in for you.

All the best

David


[edit on 9/4/2008 by drevill]

What you are asking for is difficult. You have to come to your faith. I truly do not believe that someone can sit here and sell it to you. If they try selling it, then I would question it.

There are many out there selling it. There's a cable channel where they sell it all day. I think they do infomercials during the day! Chistrians want to make sure you have all the products you need so they work on that during their down time. Their time is worth a pretty penny due to the amount of pigeons they have in the coop.

And of course, send them 10% of your income so these "leaders" can live in many mansions, drive many expensive cars or be driven and of course, the yacht and plane. Jesus wants them to have these things - just ask them.

I don't see Atheists selling anything
I don't see Pagans selling anything
I don't see Jews selling anything
I don't see Muslims selling anything
I don't see Buddhists selling anything
Do you see a trend here?

Most of it just takes common sense and the confidence to believe with conviction. To truly have faith and the serenity it brings. These Christian pigeons have no confidence in their faith. Why is that? That is a question you should ask. It is their lack of confidence that makes them try to sell it so bad.

You should ask yourself: "Is Benny Hinn a good role model?" "Would I feel comfortable if he were around small children?"

reply to post by Excitable_Boy

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
What you are asking for is difficult. You have to come to your faith. I truly do not believe that someone can sit here and sell it to you. If they try selling it, then I would question it.

All forms of communication to convince is selling. Some are just more hardcore than others.

There are many out there selling it. There's a cable channel where they sell it all day. I think they do infomercials during the day! Chistrians want to make sure you have all the products you need so they work on that during their down time. Their time is worth a pretty penny due to the amount of pigeons they have in the coop.

Its called Capitalism. It’s what the US is based on unfortunately.

And of course, send them 10% of your income so these "leaders" can live in many mansions, drive many expensive cars or be driven and of course, the yacht and plane. Jesus wants them to have these things - just ask them.

Although running a “ministry” can be expensive, I agree that the God as a vending machine movement is distasteful.

I don't see Atheists selling anything

Stuff
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I don't see Pagans selling anything

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I don't see Jews selling anything

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I don't see Muslims selling anything

Stuff
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I don't see Buddhists selling anything

Stuff
Stuff

Do you see a trend here?

Yes, capitalism runs rampant.

Most of it just takes common sense and the confidence to believe with conviction. To truly have faith and the serenity it brings. These Christian pigeons have no confidence in their faith. Why is that? That is a question you should ask. It is their lack of confidence that makes them try to sell it so bad.

On the contrary, it is their firm belief that those who are not Christians will be doomed to eternal damnation that makes them so passionate. It is the belief that they have seen the truth and the rest of the world is wearing blinders that makes them so unrelenting. Unfortunately, most people are more concerned with doing what they want to do rather than follow a bunch of rules from what they see as an outdated god.

You should ask yourself: "Is Benny Hinn a good role model?" "Would I feel comfortable if he were around small children?"

Actually you should ask yourself am I a good role model and would others feel comfortable to have me around small children?

The only two real truths I have found in Christianity are :"You must work out your own salvation" and"Love one another" the rest of it is interupitive

have you ever studied sacred geometry? of course christianity is taken from older religions, its politics.

Just because politics have clouded spirituality, does not by any means, make it a hoax or untrue.

I only ask, because it can show you an interpretation of the bible that sticks to scientific metaphors or explanations.

I am a scientific person, I need to see to believe, I need results. I studied closely what many sages and holy men taught, and they are not pulling your leg.
The reason so many people try to profit off of spirituality, is because it works, the spirituality itself works, and the profiting off of it as well works.

And if the argument is that if they sell the idea its wrong, is that not something Jesus would say? Like when he was in the temple and smashed the tables and threw the money everywhere and said give to Caesar what is Caesars and give to God what is Gods? If you think money is evil, youre right there with what Jesus was teaching. The irony,
the irony is that many will be deceived.

If you want to know whats really going on, try reading the gnostic gospels and the rest of the nag hamaddi, after that study egyptian religion, then after that sumerian, and you will see how the evil has snaked its way through time creating confusion and ignorance within the words of men.
studying languages at the same time is equally important to get a better idea of the whole picture.

or you can become a practicing monk and really test your faith, from that point, reading sacred texts of any region will always make perfect sense no matter what the interpretation is. Sacred texts include math and science books as well, the whole needs to be unified if there is to be any understanding

In a direct response to your request, here are some indications that the mythology of Christianity is not "unique" either to the Christians, or the Middle East from whence Christianity sprang.

I also deliberately have chosen the most "credible" sources. (ie: known and widely respected, rather than "new age" and possibly biased towards their own agenda/belief system.)

1) The flood myth. This link is to Encyclopedia Brittannica online;

www.britannica.com...

2) The hanging from a tree(cross) pierced by a spear is very similar to the myth of Odin, hanging from Yggdrasill, the "world tree" though their motives differ. This excerpt is from a "preview" of "Gods, Heros and Kings: The Battle for Mythic Britain" by Christopher R. Fee, David A. and can be found here;

books.google.com... 1EDspru26Wc&hl=en#PPA87,M1

3) Virgin birth/miraculous birth is a fairly common theme, depending upon how specific you choose to insist the details are; from Wikipedia;

en.wikipedia.org...

if you allow miraculous as well as virgin births see Horus, in Egyptian myth, the Buddha, etc.

4) Dionysus- just go ahead and read a little of this Wikipedia posting on him. Do scroll down and examine the "Paralelles with Christianity" portion.

en.wikipedia.org...

5) Adam and Eve, there are many, many similar myths, but you might like the Norse one, the names "Ask and Embla" always strike me as sooo similar;
from Wikipedia;

en.wikipedia.org...

That should keep you busy for a while.

My own personal take, not that you asked for it, is that all religions are essentially talking about the same thing. They all are human attempts to point to the same Divine truth, in various languages, with differing cultural embellishments. Of course many religious people think that their way is the only right and true way, but my own belief is that they ALL have it wrong to some degree. Usually in focusing on the details, the cultural aspects instead of the few simple rules the Divine hands them. I also believe they all have it right to some degree, mixed in with all the cultural and political stuff. The fact that they all have been tampered with (deliberately and accidentally) and have some common elements that have been borrowed or woven into them, in my opinion does not invalidate them as a means of finding the Divine. It does mean you have to learn to read and listen with your heart for the Divine bits, rather than believe some human telling you THEY know the only true way, and that THEIR text is the wholly completely right one. Just my two cents. Good luck.

Oh, one more thing, read the "Gospel of Thomas" and the "Gospel of Mary" and then consider what Paul adds later. I am very distrustful of Paul myself. I would read everything you could on him. I personally feel he misdirected Christianity away from the teachings of Jesus to his own. Here is a link to the "Gospel of Thomas" that gives several translations; from the Gnostic Society Library;

www.webcom.com...

And on the same site, the "Gospel of Mary."

www.webcom.com...

[edit on 9-4-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]

reply to post by darkelf

don't see Atheists selling anything

Stuff
Stuff
Stuff

I don't see Pagans selling anything

Stuff
Stuff

I don't see Jews selling anything

Stuff
Stuff

I don't see Muslims selling anything

Stuff
Stuff

I don't see Buddhists selling anything

Stuff
Stuff

Do you see a trend here?

Darkelf.....I'm not talking about websites. You can find websites for anything. Are any of these other religious groups selling their beliefs on TV? Are Atheists selling their beliefs on TV? Does any other religion or belief feel the NEED to SAVE THE WORLD?

In many ways Christians are ridiculous. If you had any confidence in your beliefs the opposite would be true. You would NOT feel the need to push it on others.

I was flipping around the channels last night and there were TWO channels going with Christians preachers trying SAVE all of us non-believers. The two preachers were some pretty scary dudes. As I was flippping around I didn't see any other religion or non-religion trying to push anything on anyone.......



[edit on 10-4-2008 by Excitable_Boy]

Originally posted by dariousg
What kind of data, ancient stories and such, that can be proven would you suggest as valid arguments for the creation of the Christian religion?

Why I am asking this is because I have found more and more evidence out there pointing to the fact that the faith I have grown up believing in very likely is a lie. Or at least many of the 'key' parts are stories that have been absorbed from much older civilizations.

To he whom has built his house upon solid rock, his house shall not fall.

There's no data you can present to a Christian to make him/her disbelieve. Even if you had "proof" Christians were unknowingly worshipping Satan and damning themselves, they'd think that it was a trick and not listen to you.

[edit on 4/10/2008 by runetang]

Amen runetang! If they were told that eating a pile of dog crap would bring them one step closer to salvation, they would dig in!

Sheeple........

To expound a bit,

It is so easy to be deceived into a certain sect of religion, a certain practice, a certain set of rituals. This is all it is, a certain set of rituals. How shall ye honor God? Through blasphemies, sacrifices, through imitation of eating the flesh and drinking the blood, by mocking Yahweh by saying Yeshua was "him" in human form. Nay, he was his son, son by spirit, son by choice. You see, when a man takes unto him a son, it is not always of the blood. I have a "stepfather", done me way better than my unfortunately deceased "real" father, but that was not entirely my father's fault.

Anyway, God's wisdom is that those in need shall find those who are able to assist and help, and those who can and want to help shall be drawn to those in need; this is an unspoken universal law of God. I see it in my life everyday. It is a natural attraction, even with the opposite sex. Some seek a partner who is a "victim", to "treat them right", which gives them recognition unto themself. Likewise, some seek one with a wild lifestyle and no control, to be seen as such, for the image presented to the surrounding people, and also the feeling it gives them of recognition. It runs through all things.

So in the end, one can only find his own path. They say the only way to Heaven is through Christ. I say to them, you are indeed correct. Christ, being the savior, saves. How could Christ reject men and women who have walked in his footprints more so than the very congregation that claims divine right from him, despite the fact that the person in question lived in an area of the world where the Gospel wasn't thoroughly preached and available? Should that one be damned? Would Christ reject that one upon death? No. Christ will save that spirit just as the next, for the elect are so in their actions, not their affiliations.

damn, that rolled off my fingertips like divine providence. hate to be cheesy but i am feeling the spirit today.

[edit on 4/10/2008 by runetang]

eb Christians are no more passionate over their beliefs than any other group. Ever been to a college football game? I understand that you do not feel a need for salvation or anything that Christianity has to offer.
What I don't understand is your extreme dislike for Christians or Christianity.

We're all trying to make our way in this world. I already explained why Christians feel a need to evangelize. I don't feel this need, as it is my humble opinion that God already knows who will receive and who will reject so it is up to Him to touch men's hearts. I doubt that there is anyone on this site who has not heard the Christian message of salvation.

What I have discovered about tv is that if there is not an audiece, the show won't last long. TV gives us what we want.

My only advice: you have the remote in your hand; you can always change the channel.

[edit on 4/10/2008 by darkelf]

Originally posted by dariousg
What kind of data, ancient stories and such, that can be proven would you suggest as valid arguments for the creation of the Christian religion?

Take all those religious stories, not just the bible but all superstitious dogmatic writings ever contrived by man, and lay them all out side by side, and then ask your christian and other religious friends if they could still swear on their soul that their ascribed version of the truth is really true, and that all the rest are a lie. Obviously, someone has been lying. And playing pretend and make-believe. (a.k.a. idol worshipping)

Technically, when one ascribes to a particular dogmatic writing and faith, they obviously are also implying that all the others are lies being worshipped by liars. When you ascribe to any particular belief and faith, you automatically offend all the others because your choice implies all the others are liars. Thus, it seems, religion automatically pits everyone against each other merely by YOU ascribing to and sponsoring one or the other.

My question to them would be why do you need to find out about any possible CREATOR from another? Why does one need ANY of those dogmatic writings and teachings? Does your GOD not speak directly to thee?

reply to post by dariousg

Take all those religious stories, not just the bible but all superstitious dogmatic writings ever contrived by man, and lay them all out side by side, and then ask your christian and other religious friends if they could still swear on their soul that their ascribed version of the truth is really true, and that all the rest are a lie. Obviously, someone has been lying. And playing pretend and make-believe. (a.k.a. idol worshipping)

What is said above is true. I also have many thoughts that might perk up your interest. Go to my profile and look up my threads!

You are in actually a good place. Question, question, everything. I was part of religion for most of my life and I realized that it no longer worked for me. But, I still believe in God and his son. When people say that all religion leads to God, they are disillusioned. There is far to much contrast between them all.

It is my theory that you have reached a place in time, and in a crucial time, where we must examine what we believe. Often our greatest growth can come in a time of confusion. Pray to God and ask him for direction, and ask for wisdom.

"They say...A sinner is someone who knows God - A priest is someone in search of him!"
- Kenneth Branagh in "The Proposition"

As far as I can see, unless you have had actual personal physical proof of the existence or non-existence of something beyond this life, then you just don't know.

That's why I think christians and athiests as well as most members of other religions are ill-informed.

That's not to say there isn't something more. I'm just saying that most of these faith-based posters are kidding themselves (I include athiests in this).

Really, the most reasonable approach, unless you have had personal proof, is to be Agnostic: to admit that 'I just don't know'.

If anyone would like to counter this post, please let us know what actual physical personal proof you have had.

[edit on 10-4-2008 by rizla]

reply to post by darkelf

What I have discovered about tv is that if there is not an audiece, the show won't last long. TV gives us what we want.

It gives us what we want? Really? Or does it give us what IT wants and the masses of sheeple get dragged in? IT of course being the people with power and money to provide such educational/brainwashing material.

Do you think Benny Hinn is on TV because of something YOU want? Benny Hinn is on TV for something he wants - money! This con artist and the others like him have a hell of a racket going on. Oh ya, it's all about you and the members of the church.

What data would you take to present to a Christian...

Quite frankly I wouldn't take any. They have a right to believe anything they like and it's not my place to try and convince them they are wrong.

The spiritual path of every individual is sacred. It is not your place to try and save them or drive them from the path they walk.

Every religion tries to recruit new members by convincing them they need to be saved or to divert from there present beliefs or believe as they are told to believe by the church elders. That is just as wrong as what you propose.

When you rise above religion and truly begin to feel unconditional love for all of your brothers and sisters. You will understand that to let them walk in their own spiritual light is the greatest gift you can give them.

They have a right to find their own spiritual way.

I don't see Atheists selling anything
I don't see Pagans selling anything
I don't see Jews selling anything
I don't see Muslims selling anything
I don't see Buddhists selling anything
Do you see a trend here?

Yes, that one can be blinded to what they choose.

reply to post by Excitable_Boy

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
reply to post by darkelf

 

Do you think Benny Hinn is on TV because of something YOU want? Benny Hinn is on TV for something he wants - money! This con artist and the others like him have a hell of a racket going on. Oh ya, it's all about you and the members of the church.

I don’t watch much TV, mostly Nat Geo and History channel. Obviously, someone is watching him if he’s still on. It’s not all about me; it’s all about the advertisers and the viewing audience. I don’t know if he’s on some Christian cable network or what, but I’m sure that if it wasn’t for donations from the public, he’d have no show.

That is what I mean by TV gives us what we want. As far as I’m concerned, most of what is on TV is just crap. But someone is watching and supporting it or it wouldn’t be there.

I understand your position. I was a Christian for many years, and I was very serious about it. I went to church a couple of times a week, went to bible studies, led worship groups, played in church bands, played with professional Christian musicians, went to a Christian university, etc. You get the idea.

But beginning around 1995, I started to doubt my faith. Or at least I started to question it seriously. I was beginning to feel less and less like I belonged to that "crowd". I started to question if I even really believed what I said I believed. I started to do research, as you are doing.

The first big step for me was the realization that the Old Testament is mostly mythological and fictional. I often thought that it was difficult to qualitatively discern any difference between the myths I believed and the myths from other religions that I didn't believe. But, I though at the time, I still believe the New Testament.

Later, I found more and more evidence that seemed to indicate that much of the New Testament was fictional. Even worse, I started finding good arguments for Jesus never existing!

I had to be intellectually honest with myself and ultimately left Christianity. I no longer believe Jesus ever existed.

And believe it or not, after a short adjustment period to my new life, I'm much happier.