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Animals Are 'Stuck In Time' With Little Idea Of Past Or Future

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posted on Apr, 14 2008 @ 04:43 PM
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reply to post by _Phoenix_
 


Already answered the bone question in a previous post.




posted on Apr, 14 2008 @ 05:06 PM
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Originally posted by BluByWho
Hunting would not be considered future planning. Hunting would be considered a response to being hungry. No animal is going to hunt just to hunt, animals hunt to eat.


Orca's (Killer Whales) are one animal that springs to mind that will hunt for the sake of it, for the enjoyment so to speak. They will take seals off the beach, toy with them then just leave their dead bodies once the fun is over.

Cats will also kill just for the sake of it. Once their prey has expired and is no longer entertaining, the cat will leave the body, uneaten. I have observed my cat do this countless times. Not once have I actually seen my cat eat any part of it's prey, but just play with it until it dies.

The very fact that animals pass time in this way, ie; to entertain themselves, shows that they must have some experience in the passage of time, as what is the need to entertain yourself if have no concept of time?



Animals don't hunt to supply future meals, they hunt to fill thier currently empty stomachs. That's why a happy dog is a dog who must work for his food bowl, rather than just plopping it down once or twice a day.


Squirrels are an animal that springs to mind with regards to the above. They will collect food and store it for later use, knowing that winter means food scarcity. Many other rodents, such as shrews and chipmunks also hoard food when it becomes scarce, implying that they remember behavior learned from a previous winter.



posted on Apr, 14 2008 @ 05:08 PM
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reply to post by stumason
 


What does a memory of a past winter and a learned behavior have to do with the concept of time?

I repeat: Memory does not = Time

Also please remember I am talking about DOGS. I do not have experience with other animals.

You start at the need for an animal to entertain itself and then draw the conclusion it must be to pass time, where is the evidence to back that up? How do you arrive at that conclusion. Prey drive is a natural instinct in all animals, the thrill of the chase may be what the cat is after rather than a meal, especially if its a domesticated cat that is fed well. In no way does that indicate the cat is hunting to pass time, if it was what would the cat do, give himeslf 20 minutes of chase time then quit?

Just because an animal partakes in leisurly activities does not mean it is doing those activities to pass time. Even if it IS doing these activities to pass time, how would it know how much time it should pass or how long to partake in the activity for? If thats a conclusion you wish to draw, lets explain how you got there.

TIME is something humans created.

And if my dogs had a concept of time why wouldn't they come to me and beg on their birthdays when they get fed raw steak?

[edit on 14-4-2008 by BluByWho]



posted on Apr, 14 2008 @ 06:15 PM
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Originally posted by BluByWho
What does a memory of a past winter and a learned behavior have to do with the concept of time?


Er, you said it yourself:

"memory of a past winter". If you had no concept of time, the idea of a past would be unknown to you.


Originally posted by BluByWho
I repeat: Memory does not = Time


But, conversely, memory can also = time. A good analogy to explain this concept would be:

A bee is black and yellow, but not everything that is black and yellow is a bee.

Memory = Time and memory does not = Time are both true statements, but do not help your argument because they are both true.


Originally posted by BluByWho
Also please remember I am talking about DOGS. I do not have experience with other animals.


Thats a shame as this thread was about Animals, not just Dogs.



Originally posted by BluByWho
You start at the need for an animal to entertain itself and then draw the conclusion it must be to pass time, where is the evidence to back that up? How do you arrive at that conclusion.


When you do something that is not necessary to your survival, ie: Hunt for the sake of it, then it has to be for another reason. Just attributing down to "instinct" is a cop out. If it was instinct, then they would also eat their prey, as they would in the wild.


Originally posted by BluByWho
Prey drive is a natural instinct in all animals, the thrill of the chase may be what the cat is after rather than a meal, especially if its a domesticated cat that is fed well.


Even if my Cat hasn't eaten her food all morning, she will still not eat what she has caught. She will leave it and return to her bowl to chow down on her biscuits.

She is also very particular about what she eats. there are certain cat foods she will not touch, even if they are "premium" brands and made from the choicest ingredients, because she does not like the flavour.

If Cats, or any other animal, was purely driven by instinct, she would eat whatever was put in front of her when she is hungry. This is not the case.

Lions in the wild will sit and bask in the midday sun, while their young play. Sometimes the adults might join in, sometimes they don't want to and wish to carry on sunbathing, as it is more enjoyable for them to do so. They will even shoo away the annoying young so they can continue in their lazy basking.

Many animals will either have sex or stimulate themselves purely for fun also.

There are many examples of animals playing for the sole reason to get enjoyment. If they can experience joy/fun, they can also experience boredom, by logical deduction. If something gets bored, then that must mean that it is bored with what it has been doing up to that point and decides to something more enjoyable.


Originally posted by BluByWho
In no way does that indicate the cat is hunting to pass time, if it was what would the cat do, give himeslf 20 minutes of chase time then quit?

Just because an animal partakes in leisurly activities does not mean it is doing those activities to pass time. Even if it IS doing these activities to pass time, how would it know how much time it should pass or how long to partake in the activity for? If thats a conclusion you wish to draw, lets explain how you got there.


Your confusing two separate concepts there. The ability to know that some time has passed is entirely different to be able to measure and quantify that time, as that would require a basic understand of numeracy, which I am pretty sure most animals do not have.



TIME is something humans created.


Not true. Time passes, whether we are her to experience it or not. What you really mean is the ability to measure and quantify the passage of time is a human creation.

An entirely different concept.

A small child can tell that some time has passed, but it is unable to tell you how long because they have not been taught the necessary skills in which to be able to quantify it.


Originally posted by BluByWho
And if my dogs had a concept of time why wouldn't they come to me and beg on their birthdays when they get fed raw steak?


Again, a dog might know that it hasn't seen anyone in a long while, yet is unable to tell you how long because it CANNOT COUNT nor is it able to READ A CLOCK OR CALENDAR. Your confusing the ability to understand passage of time with the ability to measure time.

Animals can get lonely and depressed. If they had no concept of the passage of time, how could they possibly get lonely?

They wouldn't know how long they had been alone, so as such, wouldn't get to upset about not seeing anyone for a while.



[edit on 14/4/08 by stumason]



posted on Apr, 14 2008 @ 06:40 PM
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Originally posted by stumason
Er, you said it yourself:

"memory of a past winter". If you had no concept of time, the idea of a past would be unknown to you.


To be able to discern it was in the past you would first have to be aware your in the present, then assign a time to an event that already happened and place it in a chronological order, based around the other events you recall from the past, before and after the event your reffering to. If you can't do that your left with a memory, nothing but a plain old memory.




But, conversely, memory can also = time. A good analogy to explain this concept would be:

A bee is black and yellow, but not everything that is black and yellow is a bee.

Memory = Time and memory does not = Time are both true statements, but do not help your argument because they are both true.


To a human a memory = a point in time and a memory
to an animal a memory = a memory, they have no ability to place said memory into a time line.



Thats a shame as this thread was about Animals, not just Dogs.


a Shame because you missed it the 3 times I stated it, or a shame because I am adding what knowledge I have of a specific species in the animal kindom relavant to this discussion?


When you do something that is not necessary to your survival, ie: Hunt for the sake of it, then it has to be for another reason. Just attributing down to "instinct" is a cop out. If it was instinct, then they would also eat their prey, as they would in the wild.


Your talking about a DOMESTICATED animal here, it has a hunting instint and a prey drive, you cant take that out of an animal, no matter how long you domesticate it. Just because an animal hunts to hunt that does not indicate it has a sense of time. Why does the other reason have to be time? It could be a number of different things.


Even if my Cat hasn't eaten her food all morning, she will still not eat what she has caught. She will leave it and return to her bowl to chow down on her biscuits.


What does that have to do with the passing of time? I'm not arguing that your cat doesnt hunt for reasons other than eating. Your cat hunts out of instinct, cats are natural hunters, wether domesticated or wild. In the wild will a tiger hunt a zebra simply to kill it and leave it for the other animals to eat?


She is also very particular about what she eats. there are certain cat foods she will not touch, even if they are "premium" brands and made from the choicest ingredients, because she does not like the flavour.


The passage of time has nothing to do with like and dislike.


If Cats, or any other animal, was purely driven by instinct, she would eat whatever was put in front of her when she is hungry. This is not the case.


Animals know when they are full. They also know what food they like and dislike, again nothing to do with the passage of time.


Lions in the wild will sit and bask in the midday sun, while their young play. Sometimes the adults might join in, sometimes they don't want to and wish to carry on sunbathing, as it is more enjoyable for them to do so. They will even shoo away the annoying young so they can continue in their lazy basking.


Again, nothing to do with past,present,future.


Many animals will either have sex or stimulate themselves purely for fun also.


Yet again nothing to do with the concept of time.

There are many examples of animals playing for the sole reason to get enjoyment. If they can experience joy/fun, they can also experience boredom, by logical deduction. If something gets bored, then that must mean that it is bored with what it has been doing up to that point and decides to something more enjoyable.



Your confusing two separate concepts there. The ability to know that some time has passed is entirely different to be able to measure and quantify that time, as that would require a basic understand of numeracy, which I am pretty sure most animals do not have.


How can you recognize something you can't measure or quantify?



TIME is something humans created.


Not true. Time passes, whether we are her to experience it or not. What you really mean is the ability to measure and quantify the passage of time is a human creation.

An entirely different concept.

A small child can tell that some time has passed, but it is unable to tell you how long because they have not been taught the necessary skills in which to be able to quantify it.


Originally posted by BluByWho
And if my dogs had a concept of time why wouldn't they come to me and beg on their birthdays when they get fed raw steak?



Again, a dog might know that it hasn't seen anyone in a long while, yet is unable to tell you how long because it CANNOT COUNT nor is it able to READ A CLOCK OR CALENDAR. Your confusing the ability to understand passage of time with the ability to measure time.


How can you understand the passing of something you know nothing about?


Animals can get lonely and depressed. If they had no concept of the passage of time, how could they possibly get lonely?

They wouldn't know how long they had been alone, so as such, wouldn't get to upset about not seeing anyone for a while.


Because they have families too wether its a human family or a family in the wild, they are social species just like humans. They also have and look for mates, wanting companionship is not an indicator that an animal is aware oif time.



[edit on 14/4/08 by stumason]



posted on Apr, 14 2008 @ 06:46 PM
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Main Entry: 1time
Pronunciation: \ˈtīm\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English tīma; akin to Old Norse tīmi time, Old English tīd — more at tide
Date: before 12th century
1 a: the measured or measurable period during which an action, process, or condition exists or continues : duration b: a nonspatial continuum that is measured in terms of events which succeed one another from past through present to future c: leisure
2: the point or period when something occurs : occasion
3 a: an appointed, fixed, or customary moment or hour for something to happen, begin, or end b: an opportune or suitable moment —often used in the phrase about time
4 a: a historical period : age b: a division of geologic chronology c: conditions at present or at some specified period —usually used in plural d: the present time
5 a: lifetime b: a period of apprenticeship c: a term of military service d: a prison sentence
6: season
7 a: rate of speed : tempo b: the grouping of the beats of music : rhythm
8 a: a moment, hour, day, or year as indicated by a clock or calendar b: any of various systems (as sidereal or solar) of reckoning time
9 a: one of a series of recurring instances or repeated actions



posted on Apr, 14 2008 @ 06:46 PM
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Time is something man created in order to measure and quantify the passage of his existance.

[edit on 14-4-2008 by BluByWho]



posted on Apr, 14 2008 @ 06:52 PM
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I think animals are aware of the passage of time, just as all living creatures are. They see the passage of the sun and know when day turns to night, seasons and so forth. Bears hibernate, woodland creatures collect nuts... I think its all hardwired into us.



posted on Apr, 14 2008 @ 06:56 PM
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reply to post by BluByWho
 


I'm not sure what a clock has to do with it really.

There are many humans who live without clocks, or even know what a clock is, and they do have concept of time. Many kids don't know what a clock is or understand it until they are older.

But they still feel time.

[edit on 14-4-2008 by _Phoenix_]



posted on Apr, 14 2008 @ 07:16 PM
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reply to post by _Phoenix_
 


We're talking about humans? I thought we were talking about animals. I already posted the webster-mirriam dictionary definition of time. Maybe you could define the time your talking about for me?

Clock, sun dial, stones, calender, hand in the sky, whatever tool you want to use to measure the passage of time. I'm not argueing that humans arent aware of time. Obviously we are, we are talking about animals, so lets not try and change the topic.

How does someone "feel time"?


[edit on 14-4-2008 by BluByWho]



posted on Apr, 14 2008 @ 07:53 PM
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reply to post by BluByWho
 


Again, you seem woefully incapable of separating the ability to measure time from the ability to understand time has passed.

Like I said above, a small child will know that time has passed, but will be unable to tell you how much time as it is unable to put it into context due to an inability to measure it as they haven't been taught how to use a clock. That doesn't mean they are unaware of the passage of time, though.



How can you recognize something you can't measure or quantify?


An inability to put a measurement against something doesn't preclude you being able to experience it. For example, a light will give off a certain amount of energy, I know this as I experience it. But I could not tell you how much energy was being emitted, not without specialist equipment.

Ergo, just because an animal has no ability to measure something, such as a clock does time, it does not automatically mean that they cannot experience it.

Even between different groups of humans there are many ways to measure time. That is the human construct, not time itself, which is a physical dimension entirely separate from whatever constructs humans want to proscribe to it's measurements.

Your entire argument seems to hinge on the fact that animals cannot use clocks, so thus, they cannot possible experience time as they cannot measure it.

That, I'm sorry to say, is crappy logic. There are plenty of things you experience every day that you cannot possibly measure or quantify.



posted on Apr, 15 2008 @ 05:25 AM
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Originally posted by grover
Are you sure the article said animals as opposed to Americans???


LOL thats a good one hahahahahahahaha




Mod Note: One Line Post – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 15-4-2008 by Jbird]



posted on Apr, 15 2008 @ 04:44 PM
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reply to post by stumason
 


Nor has the small child been taught what time is, therefore has no clue as to what it is that is passing by. The child is aware of his own conciousness and being, and aware that he/she remembers things that have happened in the past, and can contemplate the future. We're talking about animals.

How does one "experience time"?

My arguement is not that an animal can or cant read a clock. My arguement is animals are stuck in time with little idea of past or future. They have no capacity to put the past into a timeline and do not contemplate the future. They live in the moment, aware of the conciousness of their being at that moment in time.

If a tree falls in the forest and nothing is around to hear it does it make a sound? Would time exist if humans were never around to contemplate it? Define time according to your arguement.

Care to define the time your talking about? I have already posted the dictionary definition of time.



posted on Apr, 19 2008 @ 02:46 AM
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Originally posted by BluByWho
Nor has the small child been taught what time is, therefore has no clue as to what it is that is passing by. The child is aware of his own conciousness and being, and aware that he/she remembers things that have happened in the past, and can contemplate the future. We're talking about animals.


Huh? My 4 year old daughter and my 4 year old Step-son are, currently, not capable of reading a clock or telling you how long a given amount of time has passed, yet they can certainly tell that time has passed. I wonder if you have children, because stating what you said above is utter rubbish.

What are humans if not animals? You're assuming a huge gap in ability between all animals and humans, which is quite arrogant. Whales, Dolphins, Apes and monkeys are comparable (to an extent) in cognitive abilities with humans. The only thing that sets us apart from them is the discovery of fire, which to be honest, would be pretty hard for a Whale to discover, even if they had the intellectual faculties.


Originally posted by BluByWho
How does one "experience time"?


Exactly the way you said we didn't earlier in the thread. By memory. Remembering past events.


Originally posted by BluByWho
My arguement is not that an animal can or cant read a clock. My arguement is animals are stuck in time with little idea of past or future. They have no capacity to put the past into a timeline and do not contemplate the future. They live in the moment, aware of the conciousness of their being at that moment in time.


You speak as if you a categorically sure that this is the case, yet anecdotal evidence, animal behaviour and people's personal experience seem to run contrary to what some boffins did with a few rats in a lab.


Originally posted by BluByWho
If a tree falls in the forest and nothing is around to hear it does it make a sound?


Thats all very good as a philosophical idea, but in actuality, it is a stupid question. Of course it makes a sound. Sound isn;t reliant on someone being there to hear it. It is vibrations in the air that make sound and a tree falling in the forest would make those vibrations whether anyone was around or not.


Originally posted by BluByWho
Would time exist if humans were never around to contemplate it? Define time according to your arguement.


Time is dimension of our universe. Time passed before humanity arose and will pass long after we have disappeared. Are you that supremely arrogant to suggest that no time passed before Humanity appeared? The measurement and quantification of time is a human idea, not time itself.


Originally posted by BluByWho
Care to define the time your talking about? I have already posted the dictionary definition of time.


That would be this definition:



1 a: the measured or measurable period during which an action, process, or condition exists or continues : duration b: a nonspatial continuum that is measured in terms of events which succeed one another from past through present to future


Key there is the word measurable. That doesn't mean you have to measure it to experience it though, just that it is possible to measure it.

For example, I can sit here at my desk at work for ages, without knowing how much time has passed, provided I don't measure it using a clock, yet I know that some time has passed, don't I?

Point is, you don't have to be able to measure it to experience it. Just because something is measurable, it doesn't mean it must be measured.



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 07:02 PM
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reply to post by stumason
 




Huh? My 4 year old daughter and my 4 year old Step-son are, currently, not capable of reading a clock or telling you how long a given amount of time has passed, yet they can certainly tell that time has passed. I wonder if you have children, because stating what you said above is utter rubbish.


Utter rubbish when you start your post out with a Huh? Perhaps you didnt understand. I agree with you a child is not stuck in time. Aware of the present, aware of the past and in which order things happened, and able to contemplate the future. All I was saying in the beginning is that a child has no idea what time is, therefore doesnt understand WHAT it is that passes by but understands that SOMETHING is passing by.



What are humans if not animals? You're assuming a huge gap in ability between all animals and humans, which is quite arrogant. Whales, Dolphins, Apes and monkeys are comparable (to an extent) in cognitive abilities with humans. The only thing that sets us apart from them is the discovery of fire, which to be honest, would be pretty hard for a Whale to discover, even if they had the intellectual faculties.


What does cognitive ability have to do with time? I guess I am wrong for assuming such a large gap between humans and animals. I mean with all those classrooms full of deer waiting to learn math, and all of those beavers driving cars down the road, and can't forget the lions that are building houses. Your right we are pretty similar. My personal favorite is the Llama on the food network that creates those amazing dishes.

Having a memory of the past is not indicative of being aware of time. If you cant place it on a timeline, in relation to other past memories it is simply a memory you have. If you dont know WHEN it happened you arent experiencing time. My dog knows what a car ride is, does my dog remember the last time she rode in the car, in relation to the time before that that she rode in the car, and is also able to contemplate when her next car ride will be?

Think hard drive vs. CPU.

Anecdotal evidence, you mean like when I come home from working 9 hours and my pitbull is crazy happy to see me, or you mean when I am home all weekend with him, leave to go to the gas station for cigarettes and he is again crazy happy to see me when I was gone for less than 5 minutes?

Who decided time was a dimension of our universe? Who came up with that theory??



1 a: the measured or measurable period during which an action, process, or condition exists or continues : duration b: a nonspatial continuum that is measured in terms of events which succeed one another from past through present to future


According to definition number 2 I rest my case. Animals cannot put past events which succeed one another from the past through the present to future. That is why they are STUCK in time. Just because we know an animal is experienceing time doesnt mean they do.

Also please post a link to your external source.

You dont have to be aware of time to learn things.

You dont have to be aware of time to store things in long term memory.

You dont have to be aware of time to communicate.

You dont have to be aware of time to have cognitive ability.

Got any more Red Herrings to throw into your arguement?

Your teetering on the line of personal insults with your responses, I suggest you use a bit more tact.


[edit on 21-4-2008 by BluByWho]

[edit on 21-4-2008 by BluByWho]



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