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Animals Are 'Stuck In Time' With Little Idea Of Past Or Future

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posted on Apr, 9 2008 @ 05:39 PM
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reply to post by apc
 


In a dog pack every dog has a job to keep the pack going and in order. Without a job the dog finds "jobs" for itself to do. It doesnt think "I'm bored lemme go chew up that shoe". Dogs sleep up to 20 hours a day, if they a properly exercised a dog should never get "bored". Also provide chew toys, it is a dogs natural instinct to chew on things. People say dogs chew out of boredom, I ask those same people if they walk their dogs for an hour EVERY single day. A dog must be walked daily. As a pack creature a dog spends its days migrating, hunting, playing, and relaxing. The pack then returns to its home. The walk simulates the migration of the pack and also establishes you as the leader of the pack.

How is it that boredom indicates a dog thinks in the past or present?

[edit on 9-4-2008 by BluByWho]

[edit on 9-4-2008 by BluByWho]

[edit on 9-4-2008 by BluByWho]



apc

posted on Apr, 9 2008 @ 05:50 PM
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They get fat. Ask any vet what the best way is to combat obesity in pets. Besides limiting food, keep them entertained and stimulated. Cats and dogs have different brain structures and I am only studied on cats as I've never had a dog, so I can't rebut what you have observed with your canine. In my experience with family members' dogs, they are social creatures and cats are loners. This is largely due to how their brains have evolved. With cats this lets you eliminate social interaction from the equation. Without toys to play with or something to watch on TV, cats eat to pass time. A fat cat is a bored cat.



posted on Apr, 9 2008 @ 05:53 PM
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reply to post by apc
 



As I have no experience with felines I will have to take your word for it.

Much like a cat a dog needs exercise and stimulation, however dogs chew to pass time. But do they know they are passing that time? Or does it have more to do with that in the present at that moment they need something to do?

Perhaps it is we as humans who are able to contemplate situations create a past and present for the animals, when in all reality they are simply partaking in an activity that seems like a good idea to them at the time.

I believe all animals have memories, however I dont believe they are able to reason like a human, or dictate future behavior based on past memories. Like when I am feeding my dogs, they know they have to sit and be calm before they eat because I trained them to do so. If they were able to think about the past and use that, they would go to their food dishes and sit and wait without me having to say anything/train them to do so, would they not?


[edit on 9-4-2008 by BluByWho]

[edit on 9-4-2008 by BluByWho]


apc

posted on Apr, 9 2008 @ 06:16 PM
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How do they know they need something to do unless they comprehend they haven't been doing anything? If they are simply existing in a series of moments with no realization of progression, why is it not constantly chewing on something if it's not doing something else? Time is based on memory. If one suppresses their ability to recall, they have no perception of time. The only question then is the arranging of those memories into a sequence. Before and after. As operant conditioning is based on the understanding, albeit often subconscious, of cause and effect - before and after - it seems apparent that this is a capacity they do indeed possess, although it may indeed not be a conscious recognition as it is with primates.

I think my observing my cat locate his hidden food but not eat it, saving it for later, is an act of planning. When I've stayed up and watched him he will find the food, take a couple bites, and then look to see where else food has been hidden. It will be several hours before he finally returns directly to eat the food. This suggests a comprehension of "future." Knowing a need that does not currently exist will exist at a later time and planning in anticipation of that need. Perhaps I'm simply anthropomorphizing him, but that's the only conclusion I've come to that I can't reason away.



posted on Apr, 9 2008 @ 06:42 PM
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reply to post by apc
 


See a dog will eat what you put in front of it because of nature. In nature a dog does not know when his next meal will be, thats why they always eat all of their food (unless they are being overfed).

Does the dog bury his bones because he knows he will be hungry in the future, or because at the moment he is not hungry and wants to protect his food? Finding the bones arent an issue, dogs noses are superb. All animals are programmed to survive, preserving food aupplies could be a survival instinct rather than future planning.


Have you tried this exercise when the cat is hungry?

Perhaps he is simply not hungry at the time, and at a later time is hungry and as a result eats the food. To you he remembers the food being there, but that is your thought, to him perhaps he just smells it again and at that point in time he is hungry and eats it?


[edit on 9-4-2008 by BluByWho]



posted on Apr, 9 2008 @ 07:22 PM
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So if that is so how come my dog at 4pm on the dot every day that we are inside will go fetch his lead and bark knowing it's time for a walk?



posted on Apr, 9 2008 @ 07:34 PM
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The same reason he knows how to sit or give his paw. Repitition. He doesnt know its 4pm, he doesnt know what time is.

Look at it this way, you get up for work every day at the same time, then on weekends when you dont have to work you wake up at the same time anyway. Biological clock and repitition.


apc

posted on Apr, 9 2008 @ 08:02 PM
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reply to post by BluByWho
 

No. I've had him since birth and I know his behavior very well. He definitely goes directly back to the food, operating on recall. Cats and dogs are different on this matter. Debate over their perception of time aside, it is well known that cats will preserve their food supply while dogs will eat everything that's placed in front of them. That is why it is permissible to leave cats alone for extended periods of time given ample amounts of food whereas dogs will eat everything and starve to death. It's probably just how their brains have evolved. Dogs naturally hunt things like rabbits and other small game. Cats eat rodents and birds. Dogs have to consume as much as possible at a time because if they don't other predators will steal their meal. Cats however operate on stealth and can return to a common feeding ground with minimal risk of alerting others.

We're pretty much comparing apples to oranges here going dog vs. cat. Like I said, I can't rebut your observations of dogs because I don't have extensive experience with them. As a cat-person I have a natural bias against dumb dogs.



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 03:19 AM
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What if animals had a completly different way of communicating that we are totaly obliveous too!

Radical...yes....unreeasonable...no

[edit on 10-4-2008 by whiteraven]



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 09:27 AM
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Originally posted by whiteraven
What if animals had a completly different way of communicating that we are totaly obliveous too!

Radical...yes....unreeasonable...no

[edit on 10-4-2008 by whiteraven]


All animals I do not knows, dogs I know that they do for sure, 100% without a doubt. They communicate through body language and energy.



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 10:13 AM
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The idea behind this thread... Animals Are 'Stuck In Time' With Little Idea Of Past Or Future doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Aren't we animals too? Just a bit more developed that is. Saying that all animals (aside from humans) don't have a concept of time is a bit of a broad assumption.

Perhaps rats don't have a very good concept of time considering they were the ones experimented on, but from my observation of animals (especially cats), they definitely have a concept of time.



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 11:25 AM
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The many rats i've rescued, from labs which conduct dumbass experiments such as this, have taught me they have better behaviour and ethics than most humans I know. They have well developed personalities and absolutely get bored. So for once I can agree with APC - they have a sense of time, though maybe not our obsessively blinkered straight line version.



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 11:45 AM
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I "know" my cats, I'm very close to them. I understand them. They do have ideas about the past and the future.

I take out my deodorant, the cat flees because it remembers the noise it makes from the past, they remember that they don't like it.

When I go to sleep, one of my cats gets exited and purrs and comes on my bed to sleep. Every night he comes to sleep, because he remembers and enjoys the company, lol.

When I drink a bottle of coke, my cat comes to sit by me, and stares at me, because he remembers the past events of me giving him the top to play with.

How can animals do daily thing if they don't remember very imortant things they have learnt from the past?

If animals are stuck in time, how do they remember things? e.g like the way back home?

I truly believe cats are very emotionally close to humans, if you are close to a cat, close enough for the cat to like you and adore you, you would know that. The older they get, you will see how much more human they become.

Isn't hunting planning out future acts?

Cats can be very cautious of things they don't reconize from the past. Humans, objects, etc etc.

Anyway I just think this theory doesn't make any sense.



posted on Apr, 10 2008 @ 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by Shar_Chi
The many rats i've rescued, from labs which conduct dumbass experiments such as this, have taught me they have better behaviour and ethics than most humans I know. They have well developed personalities and absolutely get bored. So for once I can agree with APC - they have a sense of time, though maybe not our obsessively blinkered straight line version.


Yes that's true, one of my cats, if I don't give him attention for a couple of hours, he might think I'm not in the house, and gets lonely, because of course he senses time. So I hear him cry for me in the cutest way lol, and when I reveal myself he runs to me and purrs, because he really does sense the passing time.



[edit on 10-4-2008 by _Phoenix_]



posted on Apr, 13 2008 @ 04:13 PM
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Originally posted by Shar_Chi
The many rats i've rescued, from labs which conduct dumbass experiments such as this, have taught me they have better behaviour and ethics than most humans I know. They have well developed personalities and absolutely get bored. So for once I can agree with APC - they have a sense of time, though maybe not our obsessively blinkered straight line version.


Thay probely do its just we cant get it out of them because we dont know everyone exact science of life but we think we do. i dont see animals investigating us.



posted on Apr, 14 2008 @ 02:52 PM
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reply to post by _Phoenix_
 


I have to respectfully disagree with you.

Concept of time does not = memory.

Your cat ASSOCIATES the sound of the deodorant with an unpleasant experience, not a point in time.

Just because an animal has stored memories and remembers things does not suggest a concept of time.

As I have already stated my experience is with dogs, not cat. A dog knows its way back home by smell. Thats why male dogs mark their territory and stop all the time to pee, to find their scent and their way back home. They use their sense of smell above all other scents. Hence why dogs sniff people and one another when they first meet them. Everything in nature to a dog has a scent associated with it.

Hunting would not be considered future planning. Hunting would be considered a response to being hungry. No animal is going to hunt just to hunt, animals hunt to eat. Animals don't hunt to supply future meals, they hunt to fill thier currently empty stomachs. That's why a happy dog is a dog who must work for his food bowl, rather than just plopping it down once or twice a day.

Concept of time:

-- I remember when I was 9 years old and in Grade school, the days seemed so much shorter to me.
-- I remember this movie that was 3 and a half hours long and dragged like none other.
--I know I need to pay my mortgage in 2 weeks, I know how much time 2 weeks is.
-- I have been sitting around for the past 6 hours doing nothing, I know how long I have been sitting around


A cat doesnt think man I remember when I blasted the litterbox 4 hours ago, I think I'm gonna do that again at 3pm. A cat goes to the litter box because it associates the feeling of having to go to the bathrrom with the location and smell of the litter box.

Much like why a dog automatically sits when it begs, by association. It associates sitting with a good tasting treat.

Having a memory and a concept of time are two completely different things. If you cannot put those past memories in a timeline, relative to your current state of mind, and also use those memories to PLAN for the future, you have little to no concept of time.



[edit on 14-4-2008 by BluByWho]



posted on Apr, 14 2008 @ 03:15 PM
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reply to post by BluByWho
 


How about when a dog buries something for future use?

I think we can't put all animals in the same box, they are all different.

Maybe some animals are stuck in time, but there is also research that suggests otherwise. You might find these interesting.


Study shows apes can plan ahead
news.bbc.co.uk...

Time in the Animal Mind
www.nytimes.com...

Birds Plan For Future Desires
www.terradaily.com...

Birds Found To Plan For The Future
www.sciencedaily.com...


[edit on 14-4-2008 by _Phoenix_]



posted on Apr, 14 2008 @ 03:35 PM
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Originally posted by BluByWho
...Sure he knows that at that time of the day is when people usually arrive, he learned that through repitition. ...


If dogs had no sense of time, he would sit at the door/window ALL DAY LONG because he thinks "any second now, the person is coming home!"

Anyone who has ever owned a dog has noticed that if a person comes home at roughly the same time every day, the dog will start getting excited before the event happens. This is prima facia evidence that dogs DO sense the passing of time.

How could you "learn through repetition" the correct time-frame of something, if you HAVE NO SENSE OF THE PASSAGE OF TIME?



posted on Apr, 14 2008 @ 04:10 PM
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Are you sure the article said animals as opposed to Americans???



Mod Note: One Line Post – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 15-4-2008 by Jbird]



posted on Apr, 14 2008 @ 04:41 PM
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reply to post by sir_chancealot
 


Biological clock, you didnt touch on my example from my previous reply at all.

You wake up with an alarm clock at the same time every day for work. Then when you dont work on the weekend you wake up at that time anyway with no alarm.

A dog doesnt know what an hour is, a dog doesnt know what a minute is, a dog doesnt know what a second is, how could he possibly grasp a certain time throught the day to focus on. Lets say its 4pm we're talking about. The dog has no idea how to calculate the amount of time passed, he doesnt know how to count time. He has absolutly no way to arrive at 4pm is when my family arrives, he doesnt know what 4pm is. Its a biological clock, and that clock gets set through repitition.

I am speaking dogs, not any other animals. A dog learns through repitition and association.

And the dog would not sit around and wait all day long, he would find something else to occupy himself with. Most likely a nap. Dogs sleep for up to 20 hours a day. Dogs live in the moment. He may go take a look to see if you've arrived, however he doesnt have the capacity to think to himself. I'm going to sit by this door all day long until he gets home. Your trying to rationalize your dogs behavior using human psychology.

I agree that dogs sense the passing of time, however they arent able to tell if its a lot of time or a little time since they have no frame of reference. They dont know you leave for work @ 7am, they dont know what 7am is. Similarly like I said before lets say you arrive home at 4pm. The dog has NO IDEA what 4pm is. He also has no way to calculate the passing of time. We use clocks, we use to use sun dials, we know about how long an hour is, buts thats because we understand what it is that makes up an hour of time.

So your arguement is that if my dog didnt have a sense of time he would sit by the window all day? Why wouldnt he sit by his food bowl all day? or by his leash all day? or by his toys all day?

Humans created the concept of time.

[edit on 14-4-2008 by BluByWho]



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