The Reason It Really Doesn't Matter if God Exists...

I have seen more threads on "God's existence" than I can even count. The debate goes on and on and on.....

But in the end, and after a lot of thought... I don't think it really matters. And my logic is actually very simple. They say, "If He isn't real, I have done nothing wrong. But if He IS real, you have everything to lose." I say, WRONG.

Christians... pay attention:

You say the bible is literal where you want it to be. And you say, "It's metaphorical" where you DON'T want it to be. It always bends to your needs. But that isn't true. If it says plainly homosexuality is wrong in one area, and then says men shouldn't have long hair in another... what is the difference? The bible says so many things that obviously do NOT apply. Or completely contradict one another. But then you're going to say, "But that was so and so's opinion! Not God's!" However, is not the entire bible written by men, capable of being blended with the thoughts and opinions of men?

Here's the deal:

You don't do what the bible says anyways. How many of you stop to pray for a diseased man sitting outside the diner? Or offer your last $5 to the hungry man on the corner? Or for that matter... how many of you pay tithes? Or follow all 10 Commandments?

"Yeah, but those aren't sins unto death!!" you might yell. But... does He also not say, "I will spew the lukewarm out of my mouth" So... are you hot?

My thoughts: It truly doesn't matter. You probably aren't living up to the standards anyways. You think you're ok, but are you really? And if He is so loving, and we are so bad... who is to say He won't just let everyone in? I know I wouldn't let my child burn forever no matter HOW bad they were... and I'm impure of heart.

Just my thoughts though.. I'm sure you'll have some intelligent way to disagree....

reply to post by EagleTalonZ


you sound bitter.

Originally posted by EagleTalonZ
If it says plainly homosexuality is wrong in one area, and then says men shouldn't have long hair in another... what is the difference?

The long hair reference says simply that it's disgraceful for men to have long hair. It's never stated that this is a sin. The reference to homosexuality states that it is detestable and that both men should be killed.

Disgrace - Detestable. Hopefully you can see the difference. If you chew with your mouth open at the dinner table it would be disgraceful. If you pulled a raw dead rat off the floor and started eating it, now that would be detestable.

As to your last points, do all Christians follow all of the Ten Commandments perfectly? No but does that mean we should give up trying because we fail or that something should be labeled as acceptable because one person does it? Hardly. Also much of what you're referring to was a set of social rules for the Israelites and had little to do with their relationship with God. As for us today, read Acts 15 for starters.

Originally posted by EagleTalonZ
My thoughts: It truly doesn't matter. You probably aren't living up to the standards anyways. You think you're ok, but are you really? And if He is so loving, and we are so bad... who is to say He won't just let everyone in? I know I wouldn't let my child burn forever no matter HOW bad they were... and I'm impure of heart.

This is my ultimate problem with Christianity. It doesn't matter how much I try to twist my mind around it, the idea of a God who is all loving and all wise, yet at the same time sends his very children to eternal torment(or, for that matter, makes an ultimatum in the first place) makes absolutely NO sense to me whatsoever.

Besides that, doesn't the bible say "For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten son," not "For God so loved the extremely small amount of the world that heeded his mafia-like threats, he gave his only begotten son"(guess that doesn't quite have the same power to inspire, does it)?

reply to post by EagleTalonZ

I have seen more threads on "God's existence" than I can even count. The debate goes on and on and on.....

Yet, you are on a spirituality thread! Yet, you read all these threads that are easy to overlook?

I am sensing a crisis in your thinking or beliefs. You do not have to be Christian! It is ok to believe in God and not be part of any religion. I left religion years ago and have never been happier! As I said in another thread...I believe that many atheists are atheists because of religion. Often when one is given an alternative option many atheists respond.

Or are you having a conscience problem over something? I am not asking what it is, but why torture yourself by reading and responding to these threads? Is it, that you feel you should be part of religion? I will encourage the opposite. Looking at things spiritually is a far cry from dogmatic religion.

reply to post by Core90

yet at the same time sends his very children to eternal torment

Of course I don't blame you! This is a religious doctrine not based in the Bible. It is just another situation where the religions take a metaphor and twist it to reflect reality.

Jah allows man to suffer from his own decisions, using free will, and will allow consequences to happen. It is not my belief that God loves everyone. If he did, then he is sure fickle! History is my witness that Jah does not often take an active role in mans lives, not do most of mankind welcome it. We have been given free will for a reason. It is our choice what we want to make of it.


[edit on 4-4-2008 by MatrixProphet]

Well... actually I am a little bit bitter. Because as it stands, all men must in some way bow down to Christianity. Witches in the old days were burned for their belief. Muslims are still scorned in modern times. And when you ask a Christian to consider anything NOT in the bible, MOST will simply place a box over their head because, "It's the only true religion"

I have been hurt. I'm pretty sure a lot of people have. That isn't my driving thought in why I posted this thread however. I posted it because it is the truth.

If you believe in God, are you doing enough to truly get in? And if you don't, is He truly so loving that perhaps He will still let you in? It's the ultimate question.

And as for me going beyond religion into something more spiritual... I pretty much have. And I've questioned a lot of things since then. I even considered becoming Wiccan. I mean... what's truly as pure as worshiping Earth? But in the end, I found it to be "just another organized religion" and I actually began to see the science in all religions.

And I posted those 2 differences not to say they were sins... but to say that Christians will say one part is right, while another part is metaphorical. That make the bible fit to their needs, and desires. Not living according to it as the simple truth. That perhaps it is all literal? Or maybe.... just maybe... that it was written by lots of men with lots of opinions.

Is it that people can't think logically when it comes to superstition, religion, faith and belief in supreme beings?

The OP starts out claiming to dispute or reveal the 'God existence' relevance then goes off on a tangent discussing the Bible.

Supreme beings may or may not exist.

Many religious books have more or less relevance.

Religions are both good and bad.

So what? Seriously.

Many of us have been hurt by religion and I am included. But I had the option to; remain and go against my gut because I felt there were too many things wrong with religion, or...go along with the borg and be a clone. My senses told me that it was wrong, and to take a stand. Right, wrong or indifferent, this is how I feel. It's like; "or else what?" Is it not better to stand up for what you believe rather than to go against what your senses are telling you? I needed to take a strong stance in order to support what I was being shown by Jah.

I think that Jah is ending religion and does not support it, nor does Jesus. I say this with very strong conviction. Spirituality is based on intuition - "senses" and not on any kind of dogma, ritual or doctrine. Being a spiritual truth seeker does not require any formal or traditional setting. I do not belong to any group!

Atheism is just another religion with its creeds, doctrines, its own God, fellowship and such.

I have been shown that it is better to transcend all religions and to look for the truth behind the scriptures. There is tremendous confusion with all religions because of how a religion looks at scripture, ie, taking it literally. What if Jah created the Bible to actually mislead the religious? That is my understanding, and I hope to do a thread in the next couple of days regarding this thought.

P.S. Is God as confused as religion is? With all the varying beliefs, should we not ask ourselves this question?

reply to post by Badge01


But for many people the "so what" idea is not enough. I like many, want much more and are searching for it. That is the spiritual mind and heart, at work.

reply to post by EagleTalonZ


rule # 1 don't believe what other people tell you the bible says------read it for yourself.

heaven is not the reward of the saved---its not in the book.

the lake of fire does not burn forever----those that get thrown into it because they chose to not want to live forever---are burn't up real fast and just cease to exist---forever.

the reward for obeying the Messiah and walking with Him is life forever in a far better world than this present mad house of satans run world

again read the scriptures satan is allowed for this present age to be the "god" of this world--------part of the curse brought on all of us by adam and eve's rejection of Their Maker while they were living in His garden of eden-----in which they were allowed to vote wrong.

Matrix prohpet...

" I left religion years ago and I have never been happier.. "

Well I joined catholicism the church of Christ by miracles years ago and I have never had more love in me and have never been happier... don't think leaving a religion makes everybody happier... For God has a revealed truth and souls who search for it will find it...


Dbates excellent response, listen to what he said original poster..

As for sending a child to burn...

First of all God usually doesn't send young souls to hell unless they are really evil...

The fact is that if you had a house, and you kept it peacful but there was this one boy who ruined everything broke things and yet he was related to you, do you still let him destroy your environment?

no.

You place him in a place where he doesn't destroy your house...

God will not allow souls like robbers and theifs, and liars, and murderes in heaven because they disrupt the atmosphere and want nothing to do with God and he has no choice but to seperate himself from those souls forever...

you see choice is made here, and everybody in hell has chose it but this you will have to wait until the judgement seat to see for yourself.....


" It's the only true religion "

It's called faith... We believe he is the son of God... Yet the way you described it would make it seem as if we hold this view arrogantly which is not true....

(true) Chrisitains do not have an arrogant tone, but in all humility want to preach what they believe is true, whoever listens listens, and whoever doesn't want to listen we shouldn't bother with them..... and let them be....


(that) is the true gospel of preaching the kingdom..

peace.

Originally posted by EagleTalonZ

If you believe in God, are you doing enough to truly get in? And if you don't, is He truly so loving that perhaps He will still let you in? It's the ultimate question.

rom 5:[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

everyone has sinned, even the pope dies, because he is a sinner.

job 34:[10] Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.

god is not unjust, but this also implies that if you do something wrong, god can´t just overlook it.

so that puts us in a bad situation. at this point, most just throw up there hands and say, thats bullcrap, god is evil because we are all going to hell! well no.

gen 3:15] And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

god understood that being born with sin was unfair, but he couldn´t ignore his standard that he first set in the garden, sin = death. so he said the first prophecy which became the entire theme of the bible. he provided a ransom for those who wished not to be alienated from god.

so there jesus, a crucifiction, alot of angry jews and you get the point. what the hell does all this mean?

for people that say, ¨i dont want to die for adam´s sin¨ now they have a chance to show it. does god automatically forgive sins as they happen? no, god´s justice would not permit that. there´s more involved.

jesus gave the illustration of a wedding feast. matthew 22

what i find interesting was that eventually everyone is invited but few come. there where those who were mean spirited and angrily refused, but im sure there were also people who just didnt want to make the trip.

everyone recieves an invitation, but you have to attend right? you can´t just say, well i was invited, ill just enjoy the music and food from home. no.

so you try your best to live in harmony with god´s word. if your heart is into it, then god, who is just, will see you want a relationship with him.

that´s why ¨going through the motions¨ doesnt help either.

And I posted those 2 differences not to say they were sins... but to say that Christians will say one part is right, while another part is metaphorical. That make the bible fit to their needs, and desires. Not living according to it as the simple truth. That perhaps it is all literal? Or maybe.... just maybe... that it was written by lots of men with lots of opinions.

that´s the problem, it´s real easy to not commit fornication until your tempted. once your tempted, it´s easier to just say, well it isnt THAT bad.

i went to a church for awhile with my boyfriend. he started asking me to move in with him and i wasn´t too keen on the idea. he told me that if i have doubts that we can talk to the father and see what he tought. priest said basically that love is a wonderful thing and that there is no law against love, and that we should ¨trust our heart¨with this sort of thing.

i quoted jer 17: 9 and walked out (the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked, who can know it?)

i dont usually get personal in threads like this, but i agree that there is hypocrasy

Wow... ok, so I had to go out of town yesterday evening so I'm sorry to have not responded sooner. You can trust my thoughts were sometimes led back to this thread and the responses I knew would come.

First of all...

I don't believe there are very many TRUE Christians in this world. I've watched the most devout go to church, fall on their knees in reverence, worship God with their hands lifted high into the air... and then go to the strip club. Or flip off the other church member who just cut them off. It's always the same. My point in this whole thread is this:

YOU ARE DOOMED... if the bible is true. Scripture says, "None is righteous, no, not one" And "All have sinned" and so many more. They say Jesus is the way to the Father, but also say, which I already quoted, "I will spew the lukewarm out of my mouth"

And so you would say, "But Lord, we have cast out demons in your name! We have healed the sick, and fed the hungry! But I will say to them, "Depart from me, for I never knew you"

How many of the "Christians" do even these things? Most that I see are only Sunday goers as it is. Nothing more to demonstrate their zeal. They judge, turn away the hungry, and are selfish in most areas.

So what I said, (and I did not go off on a tangent)... is that it really won't matter. Because if He does exist... I know most of you aren't the disciples He has demanded. And if He doesn't exist... Well, guess it still won't matter.

And as for reading the bible... I have. Completely. And meditated on it for 26 years of my life. I was an evangelist in a advanced discipleship program for 2 years. I do know the Word. I argued many atheists, and converted several actually.

That is irrelevant to the thread, but it's just something I feel I should put out so people don't think I'm here spouting ignorance. (tho I'm sure many of you do anyways... lol)

Your move...

[edit on 03/30/2008 by EagleTalonZ]

i can undrestand the non-belief in god and can say"All truths started out as blasphemy".... however scientists are finding hard evedence that we are wired to believe in something bigger than ourselves.

[quote]And as for reading the bible... I have. Completely. And meditated on it for 26 years of my life. I was an evangelist in a advanced discipleship program for 2 years. I do know the Word. I argued many atheists, and converted several actually.

Welcome to my world! Please read my new thread "Is the Bible Part of a Great Conspiracy." You may agree on some of its points.

I would agree with this. Naturally we are inquisitive beings. We see all this around us, and think, "How did it get here? Why are we here?" and I think that people had to come up with something. Hence, religion was born.

I am not just against Christianity though. I am against ALL organized religion. Let me rephrase... I am against the confinement of beliefs that organized religion enforces.

So... we believe in something bigger than us. We get "answers" but are always left with a lot of questions.

Ultimately, I still feel in the end, it won't matter if we believe or not...

if its death or death... than yes if makes no difference.

but if its live or death, i do see it being at least alittle important

But that's the point... you say you will gain life by serving Jesus? I say the bible says none are worthy. And it also says that He sees the hearts of men. So who is to say IF He does exist, that He wouldn't look into your heart, see that you are good, and still allow you in?

I titled this thread properly: It really doesn't matter if God exists.

You are alive now, if He exists. And you will die later, if He exists. The afterlife will probably be the same... if He is who the bible says He is.. I can't imagine Him allowing anyone to burn for eternity because they couldn't visually see him, hence they didn't believe in Him. Or just because they were witnesses to the evils of this world and chose to not serve Him just TO despite this religion. It just makes no sense. On any level.

Originally posted by EagleTalonZ
But that's the point... you say you will gain life by serving Jesus? I say the bible says none are worthy. And it also says that He sees the hearts of men. So who is to say IF He does exist, that He wouldn't look into your heart, see that you are good, and still allow you in?

I titled this thread properly: It really doesn't matter if God exists.

You are alive now, if He exists. And you will die later, if He exists. The afterlife will probably be the same... if He is who the bible says He is.. I can't imagine Him allowing anyone to burn for eternity because they couldn't visually see him, hence they didn't believe in Him. Or just because they were witnesses to the evils of this world and chose to not serve Him just TO despite this religion. It just makes no sense. On any level.

i understand what you are saying, but you didn´t really read my post from before.

yes we aren´t worthy.

yes none of us DESERVE to life forever.

however

rom 5:[1] Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
[2] By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

[8] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

¨grace¨ in verse 2 is translated ¨charis¨ which can be translated as unmerited favor, or mercy.

so we are all sinners but god will apply mercy to those he chooses.

again i refer to the wedding feast. god extents the invitation, but you have to act in order to benifet. ok fine, we are all sinners, but if your motives are oure and you do you best to follow his commandments, then you are ¨attending the wedding¨ sort of speak.

im dumbing down the requirments abit but you get the point