How did the terrorists know where to fly?

reply to post by scrapple


scrapple, that is a very good question. I seriously doubt he used the ACARS to pull up a hard copy of the ATIS from DCA.

I've seen this argument debated back and forth, did they or did they NOT re-set the alitmeters below 18,000 feet? Did all THREE altimeters get re-set?

I am not taking any stand either way, just hoping that all info is accurate, and not tainted by biases either way....

For clarity, for non-pilots...various high and low pressure systems can cause an altimeter to read incorrectly, so there is something called a barometric setting we dial in to correct for prevailing conditions, in order to reference MSL (mean sea level)

THis is a local correction, but above a certain altitude (18,000 feet) in the USA we switch to a 'Flight Level' system, by setting the altimeter to 29.92 in/hg. (1013 mm/hg in international airspace).

Other countries use a different 'transition level'...for instance, in the UK, it is at 4,000 feet. In France, 6,000 feet. This is primarily due to the prevailing terrain within the Nation's airspace. England doesn't have any high terrain, so FL begins at lower than in the USA.

The above was just background for those who don't fly.

Again, scrapple, I haven't studied all of the opinions of naysayers re: AA77, perhaps you have? If so, let us know.

[add]

BTW, setting the altimeter to correct for local pressure variations to reference MSL is known as setting to 'QNH'. One airline...American Airlines...used to use 'QFE' in their procedures...this would be for Instrument approaches, I think, since I'm not familiar with the practice...but they were the only Major Airline that did that for years, not sure when they modified the procedure. Oh, QFE means that the altimeter is set to read 'zero' at the airport's field elevation. A proper atimeter setting is necessary, of course, for separation from othr traffic, and to ensure proper clearance from terrain hazards, when operating in IFR conditions. Obviously, in clear weather, your eyes are your 'altimeter'....



[edit on 31-3-2008 by weedwhacker]

QFE normally is the setting for glider pilots (They use metric system).

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999

Originally posted by pro420
The official story was that the terrorists hijacked the planes and flew them into there destination. Now what im about to say might already have been said on ATS or not. This is my view. The official story doesn't make since to me. How did the terrorists know where to fly??? It's impossible to fly to a destination without help from a control center (you know what i mean). So how the hell did the terrorists know where to fly?? the government never says that they were contacted by the terrorists asking them directions or saying that they hijacked the planes. Im sure the terrorists never did contact the control center so that being said how did they know where to fly???????????????????????????????????

 

Mod Edit: All caps removed. Please see The use of All Caps. Thank you - Jak

[edit on 31/3/08 by JAK]

Please tell me you are kidding and that you do not seriously believe that a pilot needs someone on the ground to tell him how to get somewhere. I mean, havent you heard of maps? Or TACAN? Or GPS? The idea that a pilot cant find where he is without someone on the ground telling him "turn right when you get to the large windmill" is one of the most misinformed thing I have seen on ATS yet.

Atleast make a good argument. He's too high up to see a " windmill" you arss.... How many windmills can you see from several thousand feet in the air? If pilots diddn't needs people to fly there wouldn't be control towers. ever think of that???
If you fly at that speed and altitude for 10 seconds past your target area, then you have overshot your target by soo much. It's different when you are in the air you are flying around a globe sphere and not a straight line because the earth isn't flat it's rounded or spherical. That means the higher up you are the more ground you cover.
And even if they did have experience, do you really think they were capable of flying that route having never floan it before?
It was probably many people involved who diddn't know they were involved until the outcome happened. Once it did happen, and they realized what they were part of , they couldn't come out with the truth because they would be blamed or worse killed. Thats an easy way to pin it on anyone involved and to keep everyones mouth shut....

Lets add to this............

Originally posted by qwertz
QFE normally is the setting for glider pilots

(They use metric system).

Yes, and gliders always fly VFR. Not many options for a missed approach if you don't have an engine!!!

Well if there was GPS then the government would know exactly where the plane was. Also remember that the original flight plan was not to go to the World Trade Center or the Pentagon. If they had changed it then the government could see exactly where the planes where heading. If the official story says that the planes tracking device was turned off, then how did the GPS work???

reply to post by pro420


pro420, GPS doesn't work in the way you just supposed, unless there was a device planted on all four airplanes.

The GPS receivers on airplanes are receivers, not transmitters. That's why we use transponders....

Originally posted by weedwhacker

Originally posted by qwertz
QFE normally is the setting for glider pilots

(They use metric system).

Yes, and gliders always fly VFR. Not many options for a missed approach if you don't have an engine!!!

There is no such thing as a missed approach, and it's not a big problem to go down on the meadows, if necesssery, where an airliner would just impact. It's pure flying, without noise and once up in the the air, it's not easy to come down again. Thermal winds keep you up in the air without burning any gallon of fuel. Well, i didn't do it for ages, too, but it's pure fun. You should try it yourself.

Cologne Airport is EDDK, by the way.

[edit on 31-3-2008 by qwertz]

reply to post by LucidDreamer85


Please, Lucid, go read more of the posts...or better, go take flying lessons. Really, it would help everyone here to learn a little about flying. Take some Ground School courses, learn about aerodynamics and navigation and ... well, there is a lot to learn!! You might even find it interesting.

ARE YOU GUYS AWARE THAT GPS CAN BE TRACKED??


Mod edit - Are You Aware That We're Not Supposed To Use ALL CAPS ?

Mod Edit: All Caps – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 31-3-2008 by elevatedone]

Originally posted by pro420
ARE YOU GUYS AWARE THAT GPS CAN BE TRACKED??

pro420, if you're referring to what's in our cellphones, or the devices we buy, such as a TomTom or a Garmin, then you're probably correct.

BUT, commercial jets are NOT tracked because of their GPS receivers, it just ain't happening! IT is called a transponder...it is referrred to as a '4096' transponder, because there are only four digits, from 0-7 available to 'code'. Yes, it's antiquated and needs to be updated, but that is years away. Oh, and certain 'codes' are reserved....'0000' is not used. '1200' is used to denote a VFR airplane. '7700' is the emergency 'squawk', '7600' is lost-comm, and there's another one for hijackings...and I won't mention it, although it's pretty obsolete in this day and age....

pro420, that is a pretty silly question, considering its a

Global Positioning System

Heheh. Thats what GPS is for, to track and be tracked simultaneously.

In my opinion, these guys had flight school experience, then when the time came, there are supposed witnesses who called their loved ones from the planes saying guys with red bandanas stormed the cockpit and had knives etc. Some of these got recorded somehow, maybe they left them on answering machines, but we've heard them before on various television and internet media. I know the obvious reply is that those calls were staged and/or fake, and that those "loved ones" are being paid by the government to act like they lost their child or family member on that particular airplane that particular day.

I am just glad that I didn't lose any loved ones that day, and that no one here that I know of did either, because if they had, they'd be extremely insulted at the very notion that their mother or father who is dead and gone wasn't really a person, or wasn't really on the plane, or _insert conspiracy here_. I guess I'm just trying to say conspiracies involving things where thousands of people died are kind of .. how can I put it .. on the tasteless side of things I guess? just my opinion..

Well to find WTC the hijackers could have easily have used the FMC for lateral guidence.

Legs page/direct to/JFK/activate/execute/LNAV.

When WTC visual use heading hold and level change to get as close to the target as possible before disconnecting the automatics.

Dunno if the planes used 9/11 had GPS input to the FMS, probably not.

reply to post by Freaky_Animal


sheesh, freaky!! Thanks for showing off!

You managed to concisely say in a few sentences what I've been trying to explain for paragraphs! Maybe that's the best tactic, in order to describe what we know...just keep it in shorthand??

WW

What about a radio device comparable to a simple NDB, or VOR, placed right in the twin towers? I've read this as a possible explanation how to find the buildings without GPS.

[edit on 31-3-2008 by qwertz]

Navigating by sight at 35,000 feet is not easy. Try and imagine what it looks like up there. You see hundreds and hundreds of square miles of land that all looks pretty much the same. From that altitude there are no discernable landmarks aside from coastlines and very large cities.

Guessing where you are, what direction you need to go, and how far away it is is going to be a very slim shot in the dark. Without experience navigating it would be very difficult for someone to find their way to a specific destination hundreds of miles away.

For those of you who have ever flown as a passenger in a commercial aircraft (which would probably be most of you), recall what it looks like out of a passenger window. You and I know that we couldn't honestly tell where we were if we've had no instruction and practice doing so. The best I can imagine myself doing is following the compass east until I hit the shoreline, then flying back and forth north and south until I can recognize a large city near the coast. Could take hours before I found the target.

... Yet, these guys honed in like guided missiles exactly to the place they needed to be. Not one of them was off course.


I don't buy it.

[edit on 31-3-2008 by ianr5741]

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by scrapple

 

scrapple, that is a very good question. I seriously doubt he used the ACARS to pull up a hard copy of the ATIS from DCA.

I've seen this argument debated back and forth, did they or did they NOT re-set the alitmeters below 18,000 feet? Did all THREE altimeters get re-set?

I am not taking any stand either way, just hoping that all info is accurate, and not tainted by biases either way....

Would you call a Flight data recorder setting - exactly matching the 'updated' (at the time of the attack) and specific to field (Reagan) pressure problematic - if it was neither electronically nor verbally broadcast to hijackers?

reply to post by qwertz


qwertz, again, no need for a VOR in the Towers.

It was a beautiful, clear day. There's a VOR at LaGuardia (LGA), there's of course, JFK. TEB (Teterburo, in NJ)...or just the airport codes....KLGA, KJFK, KEWR (for Newark).

From hundreds of miles away, that brings 'em in....and, they weren't stupid, if you fly East you'll hit the freakin' East Coast eventually!! But, of course, they know how to use the FMS/FMC at least just enough for route guidance.

AND, no need to LNAV, as my friend 'freaky' mentioned, ujnless they had good knowledge of the Auto-Flight system, they could just hand fly.

If you have a GPS nav system in your car, you may know that there's an option to have it either 'North Up' or 'Track Up'. The EFIS, the EHSI when in the 'route' mode is 'track up'. It shows your actual track over the ground, referenced to magnetic North. When you turn, the map turns, but keeps reprenting your course, that's the magenta line I mentioned earlier.

A picture is worth a thousand words....my training DVDs are copyrighted...maybe there's something on the internet to illustrate....

Weedwhacker-
how do u know that they had a good idea of how the plane works? When the "terrorists" went to flight school the instructors said that they hardly spoke any English and that they think it was impossible for them to fly. I heard that from one of the 9/11 videos.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by qwertz

 

qwertz, again, no need for a VOR in the Towers.

It was a beautiful, clear day. There's a VOR at LaGuardia (LGA), there's of course, JFK. TEB (Teterburo, in NJ)...or just the airport codes....KLGA, KJFK, KEWR (for Newark).

From hundreds of miles away, that brings 'em in....and, they weren't stupid, if you fly East you'll hit the freakin' East Coast eventually!! But, of course, they know how to use the FMS/FMC at least just enough for route guidance.

AND, no need to LNAV, as my friend 'freaky' mentioned, ujnless they had good knowledge of the Auto-Flight system, they could just hand fly.

If you have a GPS nav system in your car, you may know that there's an option to have it either 'North Up' or 'Track Up'. The EFIS, the EHSI when in the 'route' mode is 'track up'. It shows your actual track over the ground, referenced to magnetic North. When you turn, the map turns, but keeps reprenting your course, that's the magenta line I mentioned earlier.

A picture is worth a thousand words....my training DVDs are copyrighted...maybe there's something on the internet to illustrate....

Not my idea-just caught it somewhere on the internet. There are certain discussions, how they manage, if the planes were just robots without pilots.

Originally posted by weedwhackerMaybe that's the best tactic, in order to describe what we know...just keep it in shorthand??

I've always been a great beliver of keeping things simple.

Anyway those who want a more detailed explantation will with no doubt ask for it.
The rest ofthem have already made up their mind and couldn't care less.
(after all this is a conspiracy forum)