If Death is Only the Beginning, Then Why are We Alive Today?

Originally posted by Odessy
I understand what your saying, but I dont think speculation out of knowledge or experience requires proof.

That is the thing, if it is knowledge, it is no longer speculation. Experience is nothing more than perception. The only knowledge you can obtain is that of yourself. Science itself is a matter of speculation because of the possibility it may end up becoming nothing more than a series of likely probabilities. What is most probable to happen. In that case, you truly know nothing but yourself.

You don't speculate out of knowledge, you speculate with the lack of knowledge. Thats why its speculation and not simply determining the answer.

Most of these experiences are internal, and the only proof one can give is the way they act in their daily lives, or perhaps to later take on students who share the same experiences, but that takes time and practice that some people are not willing to give.

Most experiences cannot be proven because we cannot see them without our own perception getting in the way. We can't look around the shades we have on.

I think many answers lie in study, meditation, perhaps the Akashic Records if they exist, but they take time, practice, and dedication.

Read Emersons the American Scholar. Especially the part about books. He was definately on to something there.

And you should have stuck it out with college. There are some awesome career paths for anything physics, including fun stuff like flying jets

It is so utterly pointless and such a waste of time. Formal education is a completely joke. Physics, acutally, science in general, is a waste of time.

whatever way you believe, thats totally cool.
I believe everyone's path in life will yield similar results, its just how you live your life now that grants you perspective, knowledge, or speculation into the unknown.

And I believe the results are irrelevent. Everyone's path will be different, even if it is only slightly. That is what makes life great. How you live your life isn't what grants you perspective and knowledge, its the way you question your life thats grants you such things.

Speculation into the unknown just detracts you from what you already know.

reply to post by grimreaper797


well, Im heading off to bed, but I'll leave you with this...

Everything starts off as an Idea.
Speculations are Ideas.
Knowledge leads to the creation of even more Ideas.
Therefore, knowledge grants speculation...

if X= this, then Y might = that.
and if Y does = that, then B might = something else.
If B does = something else, then A could = something crazy!
all based off our knowledge of X...

I hope I'm making sense, like I said, I'm tired.
I could possibly wake up and laugh at this tomorrow...

but basically what I'm trying to say is, from the knowledge I have gained through meditation and spiritual exersice, I now know that something else is out there...
since I know that, now I form ideas to what that is and why.
I create theories based on those ideas, or speculations, that all stem from my knowledge...

well, until tomorrow...

G'night gentlemen and gentleladies

I'm heading off, too.

I wanted to leave you with this. Every invention, every proven idea, every elemental, physical and energetical -fact- of the universe both future and past has always existed. When we come to understand these things or make an invention, there is nothing really new happening, the blueprints which are a universal possibility and allowance always existed... we just finally took the time to discover them and accept what we are and what it is and each time this happens we become more "attuned" to our experience not only as individuals but as a planetary organism.

Goodnight guys. Nice thread BTW. Very cordial and enjoyable. Haven't had one of those in a while.

[edit on 26-3-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Originally posted by Odessy
reply to post by grimreaper797

 

Everything starts off as an Idea.
Speculations are Ideas.

No, speculation is not an idea. Speculation is the creation of a hypothesis based on little to no knowledge. That is the definition of speculation. When I come up with an idea, the next thing I do is prove or disprove it with what I have avalible to me. It is based on a great deal of evidence.

When you see an apple fall from a tree you say, "I wonder what causes that" and then you do experiments. Ideas are based off of experience. These experiences are influenced by your views. The formulation of the idea, the perspective of the idea, is based off of your own personal viewpoint. This may give unique insight to the idea, or it may screw the idea up. This usually happens when you let your imagination interfer with the experience.

This is not speculation. Speculation is saying "if you could travel back in time, and killed your own grandmother, you would not exis. This is a paradox." Such speculation leads to further speculation. Multiple hypothesis that can never be proven. Speculation is a form of entertainment and nothing more. When you treat it as something more than entertainment, you become misguided by your own imagination.

Knowledge leads to the creation of even more Ideas.

Yes, knowledge does lead to ideas. Ideas are based off of knowledge. But what you fail to see is that an idea is not speculation. An idea is just that, an idea. Speculation is conjecture that has little to no base when it comes to knowledge.

Therefore, knowledge grants speculation...

Knowledge grants ideas. It is your imagination that grants speculation. Your imagination, which may or may not be based on loose rules of reality, is what causes speculation. It is called letting your imagination run wild.

if X= this, then Y might = that.
and if Y does = that, then B might = something else.
If B does = something else, then A could = something crazy!
all based off our knowledge of X...

But the reality is, rarely do you actually know X. X cannot equal time travel. x cannot equal space travel. x cannot equal god. The reason is because none of these are known. To say X equals quantum mechanics and then speculate off of it is also wrong, because quantum mechanics is not complete.

When you find me a complete version of science, I will then agree with you coming up with ideas for it. Newtons theories were thought to be right 130 years ago. What did the ideas that stemmed from them turn out to be? Speculation. Why? Because science isn't known. Even if it was, we don't know it, so it is still speculation.

Until you have the knowledge of the field, you are speculating whether its known or not. If you say 1+2=4 and you don't have any education in math at all, you are speculating. If you do, then you better prove it. If you can't prove it using the rules of said field, then you are speculating. If you pick a field that is not known, like science, and have no means to test your hypothesis that you create, you are speculating.

Speculation is bad.

but basically what I'm trying to say is, from the knowledge I have gained through meditation and spiritual exersice, I now know that something else is out there...

What knowledge is that?

since I know that, now I form ideas to what that is and why.
I create theories based on those ideas, or speculations, that all stem from my knowledge...

What do you know? How do you know it. Meditation is not knowing. "Spiritual exercise" is not knowing. The spirit itself is speculation. Its not based on anything known. You say you experience it, but what you experience is your own view of reality. This view is usually twisted in some way to coup with the fear of not being able to give an answer that fits your current prerogative.

Your imagination fills in the blanks because I dont know is not a sufficient answer for most people.

[edit on 26-3-2008 by grimreaper797]

originally posted by grimreaper797

You say you experience it, but what you experience is your own view of reality.

Then maybe that's the spirit. Just a thought. Afterall if you look at what you just typed closely, that is what you are saying. You are making the two interchangable but you want it to be seen the way that you see it. And I do see the way that you see it.

The spirit of existence is one's own view of reality is what you are saying to him if that's what you are diagnosing his connection to or definiton of spirit with/as.

It is relative and subjective to everyone and to itself. Is that what you are calling his spirit? Or are you simply saying there isn't such a thing and that we all merely view reality in our own way and that's the essence of our existence?

Either way, whether you are trying to or not, you are really narrowing and homing in on what you think, or perhaps what really is the essence or "spirit" of existence... at least from your own view of reality.

[edit on 26-3-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

reply to post by grimreaper797


ah ha, but I can not prove to you what I know.

All I can tell you is that I have experienced spiritual things.

if speculation is the forming of a hypothesis, well, a hypothesis is defined as an educated guess...

What little knowledge I have of X, I still have enough to speculate new ideas, or hypothesis...

but, I don't expect everyone to see it my way.
I don't even know what my way of thinking is.
What I do know, is that crazy things are possible, even in this life, and I can only ponder what is going to happen in the next.

The truth is no one knows, but one (if compelled to do so) can live this life trying to find out.

You have to ask yourself why we, as humans, have a need to know what happens after death.
You may say that its from fear of the unknown, but I say its for knowledge of something we can feel.

again, just my thoughts.

reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal


thanks LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal.

Theres no point in these types of threads being uncordial, there are so many different opinions and ideas on the subject that all we can do to better understand people is just listen.

I agree with what you say though, how everything we invent, every idea we have already exists.
I found that out while I was studying Astral Projection a little while ago.
Except what i found out is that every invention we make is better in the Astral Plane, because usually our ideas are better than our products

reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal


Im speaking of a literal "spirit" not the spirit of existence as in the lifeblood. Spirit as in, some force that is within each person that drives them. Not spirit as in, the best outlook on the world. Im having a hard time explaining my definition of spirit when it comes to a view or something of that nature.

When you say "that is the spirit" you are encouraging that point of view. When you say "He has a spirit" I don't know if you mean interchangably with a soul, which is something that has no real base to it.

What I am basically saying is that your emotions, and your previous experiences, will influences the way you view the now. Bias, prejudice, etc. are all results of this. That is not the "spirit" but rather the brain making its own connection. They may be based of real or imagined things. My point was that when such connection are based on the imagined things, rather than the real, you are setting yourself to be misled. Misled by whom? Yourself.

To speculate on what you have imagined is to remove yourself from what is known and speculate on the basis of your own imagination. This imagination world will, in most cases, not watch with the world you are actually living in. The world is constant. It is our view of it that varies.

Finding the balance between reality and imagination is the key. The problem is ignoring reality to further devulge into your own imagination. This should only be for entertainment purposes because of the danger it posses to yourself to seriously consider the results of doing this.

When making conclusions about life, you cannot exclude reality. You are part of reality, and being part of reality, you must include it. If your imagination is taking you to a world void of reality, it best be for your own entertainment. If it isn't, you risk losing yourself in it. You become a victim of your own ability to imagine.

That is what happens when you speculate. The imagination is a powerful thing. It can also be a dangerous thing. Letting your imagination run wild is purely for entertainment. Controlling your imagination is the key.

So when it comes to a soul, I see that as letting your imagination start to take over because it is not based on the real world, but rather your imagination.

For instance, people are birthed. Eventually they die. This is reality. You can let your imagination try to explain how you would deal with this. How would you deal with death. This is not speculation because you are basing it off the reality of death. "How would I deal with the birth of my first child" is not speculation, but reasoning based off reality.

You may very well not deal with it how you pictured, but that is no fault of your imagination or reality. That is the fault of incomplete knowledge about the subject. Your lack of understanding about what life is like when a new child is born is why you could not accurately foresee how you would act. Having it turn into speculation, or in other words, having your imagination start to run wild, is to think about how your life will change from a result of how you deal with a new born child. If you take it serious, you become a victim of your imagination.

The reason is, you don't have complete knowledge of it. Because you don't, you could be wrong. Since you could be wrong, anything after that becomes speculation. This speculation, when taken serious, will mislead you. You don't know how you would react to a new born child for sure, so you certainly don't know how your life will change. People often do this and it freaks them out. They think what if my job ends up like this, or what if my friends do that. It becomes baseless speculation on something that isn't known. The birth of a child is known. How you will react usually is not. So when you start to base thing off of how you will react it becomes speculation. This is dangerous when taken serious.

This is different from a soul because there is nothing here that shows such a thing exists, or that you will deal with it. Some people speculate rather than say I don't know. That was my overall point.

reply to post by grimreaper797


wise words my friend.

Balance is always the key, and curiosity is what leads us humans into getting lost in our imagination.
My imagination is something I will never give up.
But another question is, is it really too risky to tumble down the rabbit hole?
sure, you might become crazy to other people, but you might also stumble upon something amazing...
most genius minds are a little crazy, wouldnt you agree?

but again, wise words.
balance.
and you can also equate the pendulum effect into the thought process.
for every good, comes bad, and vise versa.
if the pendulum swings one way, it has to come back.
so the more you delve into the imagination, or spiritual side of things if you will, the more you can become lost, or the more reality hurts when you snap back to it.
balance is key...
unless you want that little bit of crazy...

reply to post by Odessy


You can see this concept in the movie Troy, spoken by Achillies, played by Brad Pitt.
He says that the gods envie us because we, as mortals, apreciate that we are going to die, and it makes everything more beautiful.
God could have dreamed up the universe and stopped right there.
He decided to go ahead and make it a reality, and created something beautiful and put people in it who he could share the joy that it gave Him.

Originally posted by Odessy
ah ha, but I can not prove to you what I know.

anything that is known can be put into words. You are fluent in the english language, so you can show what you know.

All I can tell you is that I have experienced spiritual things.

Like?

if speculation is the forming of a hypothesis, well, a hypothesis is defined as an educated guess...

"a proposal intended to explain certain facts or observations "
"a tentative theory about the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena;"

Those are the most known definitions of a hypothesis. It is not an educated guess, but a concept that would explain certain facts if true. This can be an educated guess OR wild speculation. An educated guess would we saying "if a book and an apple fall at the same time, and hit the ground at the same time, this must mean that gravity acts on them equally." That is an educated guess which would have to be proven again and again to become a theory. It is an educated guess because it is based in the real world and can be tested in the real world.

Saying something like "If I feel content, god must be at work" is speculation because it is not conclusive. There are pleanty of other possible reasons why you could feel content. Furthermore, you have no ability to prove or disprove it. This makes it speculation at its worst.

If you are going to make a hypothesis, make one that can be proven or disproven. Otherwise it turns into a hypothesis based on speculations. It is based on your imagination. That is dangerous as I said in my previous post.

What little knowledge I have of X, I still have enough to speculate new ideas, or hypothesis...

Speculation, ideas, and making a hypothesis are all different things. "If I put a nail through two pieces of wood, they will stay together" this is a hypothesis. "When I put a nail through two pieces of wood, they stay together, so If I do this in a specific way, I can build a shed." this is an idea. "When I put a nail through two pieces of wood, they stay together. If they stay together, this must show that there is some force acting upon the two pieces of wood. This force couldn't without the nail, so the nail must have some force. This force must be caused by the material. This material must be special" This is speculating. You take an idea that works, then start to base one hypothesis after another. This hypothesis is no longer an educated guess because your basing it off of something that isn't proven. When it isn't proven, it is not an educated guess.

So in other words, X is the idea that is proven.
When I perform X, Y happens. When Y comes into existance, Z may happen as a result. This is an educated guess. You know that when X is performed, Y results. This is known to happen. You then make an educated guess on what Y will cause from viewing the results of X causing Y. You say "I think Z would result". UNTIL you prove that why results, everything after this is complete speculation. It goes from IDEA, to educated guess HYPOTHESIS, to speculation hypothesis. The last one is for entertainment only.

but, I don't expect everyone to see it my way.
I don't even know what my way of thinking is.

Might want to work on that then. If you don't know the way you think, your really setting yourself up for failure. Failure to yourself.

What I do know, is that crazy things are possible, even in this life, and I can only ponder what is going to happen in the next.

Nobody said they weren't possible.

The truth is no one knows, but one (if compelled to do so) can live this life trying to find out.

If the truth is that no one knows, then how can you make an educated guess? And if one lives the rest of their life trying to find out the answers to why we exist, whats after, etc. I feel bad for them. I do so because they are really wasting their own time.

You have to ask yourself why we, as humans, have a need to know what happens after death.

Our inability to control our own imagination. We fail ourselves by failing to control our own powerful minds. When we do this, we speculate about whats after death and things of that nature. That is why we "need" to know. Lack of control is why.

You may say that its from fear of the unknown, but I say its for knowledge of something we can feel.

again, just my thoughts.

Fear of the unknown alone doesn't drive a person. It is only when that fear causes them to lose control of their own imagination that the fear takes form. That fear will only drive them if people let it.

I don't know whats after death. What I do know is the ability I have to not allow myself to speculate on it and cause me to fear it. If I were to speculate all the possibilities, before I know it, one might stick with me and then I have come to a conclusion that is baseless by nature. I am then misled. Misled by myself and my imagination.

Some explainations may cause you to fear death, some may cause you to embrace it, but ALL explainations are speculation that misleads you from the unavoidable truth. That you don't know.

[edit on 26-3-2008 by grimreaper797]

Originally posted by Odessy
Balance is always the key, and curiosity is what leads us humans into getting lost in our imagination.

I don't think it is curiosity. I think the reason we get lost in our own imaginations is because we cannot control ourselves. Saying I don't know leaves many unsatisfied. They don't know for sure with that answer. To say you don't know for sure is to allow the idea that not everything will turn out as you want it. Some people believe they want something so bad, that they refuse any idea that challanges it.

The really scary part, most of them don't know what they want. They claim to know this and that, but they don't even know themselves. They are speculating on things because they want it to be true so badly. They want it to be true because it fits the world they want to live in. What they don't realize is that they don't KNOW what they want, they just think they do. This is a result of people diving into the world around them before diving into themselves.

How do you expect to understand and explain the world if you cannot understand and explain yourself. If you can't understand and explain your feelings and your thoughts, how can you do the same with the world around you? If you don't know yourself completely, possibly the only thing you can know for certain, how could you possibly know that which is outside of you? You can't. Most don't realize this. What they end up doing is running through life blindly.

My imagination is something I will never give up.

Me either. But the goal is not to give it up, it is to control it. It is human beings most powerful tool. It is like the gun of society. Dont go shooting yourself with it by misusing it.

But another question is, is it really too risky to tumble down the rabbit hole?
sure, you might become crazy to other people, but you might also stumble upon something amazing...
most genius minds are a little crazy, wouldnt you agree?

No, I cannot agree. Most genius minds aren't crazy for going to far down the rabbit hole. They are seen as crazy for seeing the rabbit hole completely differently than the rest of the world. People see life as a certain thing. They see it as a style of doing things. People that stray so far from this perspective of life, this viewpoint, are considered crazy. Some truly are. When they look at this world in such a different light, they see so much more of it...or so much less. Either way it radically differs from the views of others.

They travel the same life we travel, it is the light in which they see it that varies so greatly. It is not going down the rabbit hole, we all go down the rabbit hole. It is how they go down the rabbit hole and the way they look at it. Some jump down the rabbit hole. This is mental suicide.

Picture the rabbit hole as this. We are a group of people walking down the mountain. We all walk down the mountian. We see many things on the way down. Most of the people see things, varying person to person. But then you have this small group who, in your eyes, doesn't even see the same mountain as you. You may think "are we even seeing the same thing?" Physically, yes. Mentally, not at all. We are all walking down the mountain (the rabbit hole) but our view of it varies, sometimes greatly.

Those people that jump into the rabbit hole are the same people that jump off the cliff, so anxious to see whats at the bottom that they destroy themselves in the process. They corrupt the whole process.

So its not just too risky to jump down the rabbit hole, it is mental suicide to do so.

and you can also equate the pendulum effect into the thought process.
for every good, comes bad, and vise versa.

I don't know it that is necessarily true. Just because you have a good thought doesn't dictate a bad thought. The pendulum is merely an effect of the physical world. We live in two worlds, the physical and then mental. The balance is about reality and imagination, or physical and mental. When you find that balance, it is not a pendulum in effect, but rather harmony. It is not one force pushing against the other, like gravity dragging the matter back the other way, but rather both forces working together.

The universe is in a constant state of imbalance, like a seesaw. It is impossible for it to find balance. It is but one state, physical. It is a tug of war, never finding balance. Going back in forth in a never ending stalemate. But we have two forces at work. We have the physical and the mental. When you have the pulling of the physical world and the pulling of the mental, you move foward in a way most cannot.

The problem is people either let the physical world pull them back into a grinding hault, or let the mental world push themselves right off a cliff. The key is letting the mental world push you foward and the physical world keep you from going off a cliff. The petal and the brake.

Imagination is our gas and reality is our break. If you hold on one petal or the other for two long, you either never go anywhere in life or right off a cliff. Neither is desired.

reply to post by jmdewey60


your right.
that is a great concept of life.
thanks!

Hey, everyone's experience of life is relative to everyone elses and even to theirself!

To some people imagination is their reality, to others it's not. To some people dividing is their goal, to others showing that everything is the same is their goal. We all serve a purpose for one another as we grow. The only emotional/spiritual truths I believe are the things that give us comfort and make us feel accomplished and/or good about ourselves even if those things are intentionally causing ones self pain (masochism! Some get ecstacy from these performances), and for everyone that may be something different.

Thanks for the read guys, c-ya.

reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal


Well no, there is a constant reality. Our vision is blinded by our senses though, making it impossible to see. But it is still there. Controlling to what extent our senses distort it is the key in balance. Those whos imaginations are their own "reality" have not controlled it, and let the imbalance run their lives.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
Well no, there is a constant reality.

There is a constant imagination. There is a constant everything and a constant nothing.

Our vision is blinded by our senses though, making it impossible to see. But it is still there. Controlling to what extent our senses distort it is the key in balance. Those whos imaginations are their own "reality" have not controlled it, and let the imbalance run their lives.

There is never control. You are simply a reaction of everything else outside of you. You have no thought and thinking otherwise you are admitting that you are delusional. Even your thoughts are only a reaction of everything else exclusive of you.

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
There is a constant imagination. There is a constant everything and a constant nothing.

Nobody said there wasn't a constant imagination. The idea is to control your imagination.

There is never control. You are simply a reaction of everything else outside of you. You have no thought and thinking otherwise you are admitting that you are delusional. Even your thoughts are only a reaction of everything else exclusive of you.

There is always control over yourself. You are not simply a reaction. Not every thought has to do with the world around you. delusional is not the imagination but letting the imagination go wild. Letting it take over completely. That is delusional.

My thoughts are not just a reaction to the world around me. If that were true then it would be impossible to analyse yourself. The reason the only thing you can know is yourself is because that is the only thing that is not shaded a different color by your senses.

You don't need sight, or taste, or smell to know yourself. You need those thing for the world around you. But tell me, if I ceased to have vision, hearing, taste, smell, feeling of objects. If I ceased to have all the physical senses I have now, would I cease to think?

I would not cease to think because thought is not dependent on senses. It is not dependent on the outside world to have thoughts. What you will think about I am not sure as I have not lived a life without vision, hearing, smelling, tasting, and feeling. To try and say WHAT I would think about in such a position would be speculation. Thoughts themselves are independent of the senses we depend on to experience the outside world.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
Nobody said there wasn't a constant imagination. The idea is to control your imagination.

Correct, nobody did. Although starting a reply with "Well no..." may send a discrete innuendo to the contrary. Words are very important on these boards; they're all we have to go off of.

There is always control over yourself. You are not simply a reaction. Not every thought has to do with the world around you. delusional is not the imagination but letting the imagination go wild. Letting it take over completely. That is delusional.

Every thought has to do with the world around you, with yourself and with the universe around you and within you. Delusional is believing that you have the ability to control, when you are only controlled by your own thoughts and your own actions as reactions to the environment and thoughts that you live in and are surrounded by.

My thoughts are not just a reaction to the world around me. If that were true then it would be impossible to analyse yourself. The reason the only thing you can know is yourself is because that is the only thing that is not shaded a different color by your senses.

Yes, your thoughts are. And no it would not be impossible to analyze yourself. Since yourself exists your thoughts are a reaction of this concept. It's simple to take a look in the mirror and write down notes. If I can only know thyself then in knowing you, you are also admitting that we are one and the same. I agree with that conclusion. We are always the same, all of us and in all ways, even our differences. There is no logical escape, and if you continue with confabulation with me you'll quickly see that the former is true if you are not hunched toward a bias.

You don't need sight, or taste, or smell to know yourself. You need those thing for the world around you. But tell me, if I ceased to have vision, hearing, taste, smell, feeling of objects. If I ceased to have all the physical senses I have now, would I cease to think?

Yes. You would no longer have the ability to process any information. Others can feel you, touch you, smell you, hear you (speech or not), see you. "Thought" is dependent on the senses.

I would not cease to think because thought is not dependent on senses. It is not dependent on the outside world to have thoughts. What you will think about I am not sure as I have not lived a life without vision, hearing, smelling, tasting, and feeling. To try and say WHAT I would think about in such a position would be speculation. Thoughts themselves are independent of the senses we depend on to experience the outside world.

So you're admitting that everything you just said is speculation and anything that I input from here forth on the topic of senseless thought is speculation, then I digress and will throw out no further information on the explanandum. You also implicitly admit that the only thing that can be proven for fact is that thought comes from senses and the world around you, the rest would simply be speculation... yet before making those comments you make seemingly absolute claims that "I would not cease to think because thought is not dependent on senses." - "It is not dependent on the outside world to have thoughts."

You are contradicting yourself, you make these claims and simultaneously say that no one knows what one would think about. Then where is your evidence that there is thought at all without sense? Don't you see the mistakes you're making?

I know what I think about when I have senses and it is a direct by-product of my universe. That is not speculation, that is a fact and on that premise my argument stands and yours crumbles into empty conjecture and literally pointless arguing of non-existent semantics.

[edit on 27-3-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

yeah, what you said

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
Correct, nobody did. Although starting a reply with "Well no..." may send a discrete innuendo to the contrary. Words are very important on these boards; they're all we have to go off of.

I started with "well, no" because you said imagination is some peoples reality. This isn't true. Imagination is some peoples delusion.

Every thought has to do with the world around you, with yourself and with the universe around you and within you.

No, not every thought. Just most thoughts. The reason for that is because you have not lived a life where you cannot sense the world around you.

Delusional is believing that you have the ability to control, when you are only controlled by your own thoughts and your own actions as reactions to the environment and thoughts that you live in and are surrounded by.

You are your own thoughts. Since you said you are controlled by your own thoughts, and you are your thoughts, and nothing more, then you have control over yourself. You must realize that if you did not have any senses, all that would be left is your thoughts. To be cut off from reality would not mean you are cut off from your imagination.

Your actions are controlled by your thoughts, and your thoughts are not controlled by the world around you because they are independent of the physical world. Your thoughts aren't dependant upon senses, and senses are the only way you experience the physical world. If you didn't have your senses, you would not experience the physical world and it therefore, could not influence your thoughts.

Just because you allow the physical world to effect your thoughts and frame of mind does not mean it is impossible to think without it.

Yes, your thoughts are. And no it would not be impossible to analyze yourself. Since yourself exists your thoughts are a reaction of this concept. It's simple to take a look in the mirror and write down notes.

That would require your senses. If you could not look in the mirror. Could not talk or hear the world around you. Could not taste or touch, you would still know you exist. Know why?

"I think, therefore, I am"

If I can only know thyself then in knowing you, you are also admitting that we are one and the same.

No, thats an assumption. All you can know is yourself. You cannot know if another is the same as you OR different. Either way is assuming. Its speculation. Speculation is the wrong way to go.

We are always the same, all of us and in all ways, even our differences.

We have gone over this before. Just because My house and another person house are both made of brick does not mean they are the same.

The physical world is like biological legos. Just because every lego block is the same does not mean that the creations of combined lego blocks are the same. Just because we are all made of the same things does not mean we were all made the same way. If we are not all made the same way, in the same form, same combination, we are different. Physically at least. Mentally we don't know because the only thing you know that exists is yourself.

You say we are the same, but you can't even know for certain if I exist. I can't be certain you exist. Neither of us can be certain the other exists. Even physically it is possibly that another person could be a serious delusion of our senses and what we believe is there is not really there.

There is no logical escape, and if you continue with confabulation with me you'll quickly see that the former is true if you are not hunched toward a bias.

There is no escape? More like there is no solution. You can't find a way around your senses to see this world we live in. You cannot be certain your senses aren't seeing something that isn't there. Mentally all you can know is yourself. Good solid logic dictates that you CANNOT know for certain of anything but yourself mentally. You can't even be sure of yourself physically.

Yes. You would no longer have the ability to process any information. Others can feel you, touch you, smell you, hear you (speech or not), see you. "Thought" is dependent on the senses.

Well then we will have to agree to disagree because thought can continue without the senses. Like I have said, Im not sure WHAT you would think about. The question "do I exist" is not dependent on your senses, but your ability to reason. That is not physical, but mental. "What am I" does not require physical senses.

From birth you would most likely never have any thoughts because A. you would not survive long enough and B. to develop without any external help is not something I can imagine. To get to this point in my life without being taught language, math, etc. I simply cannot imagine. It is far too different a world to imagine.

I cannot imagine what thoughts would occur in a person that from birth had no senses, but that does not mean that they would have no thoughts. That just means I cannot imagine it.

You cannot KNOW that a person could not think without senses just like I cannot know they would be able to from birth. But I hope you do realize that if you cannot think, then the idea of a consciousness is just made up in thoughts, in your definition, a reaction to the world. That means there is no individual consciousness, no whole consciousness, no consciousness at all. In order for there to be a consciousness, you need to have something independent of the physical world. According to your defintion, nothing is independent of the physical world.

That means that we are all just matter reacting to other pieces of matter and the consciousness is not really consciousness, but just super complex reactions. Then the only way we are "connected" is by the fact we are all made up of biological legos.

To say that there is only a physical world is to deny that you exist. In order for you to exist, your thoughts must be independent of the physical world. Why? Because if you were born with no senses, according to you, you would have no thoughts. If you have no thoughts, you do not exist. Even if you are alive, you do not exist. Physically being here doesn't mean you exist. The reason is because your own physical existance requires you to have senses to process, according to you. If you don't have senses, according to you, you cannot process. If you don't process, you don't exist. A physical compound exists, but not you. You never came into existance to begin with.

To me it seems that you are denying the possibility that our brains have become so complex, they have become such biological super computers, that they have tapped into something that is not physical.

So you're admitting that everything you just said is speculation and anything that I input from here forth on the topic of senseless thought is speculation, then I digress and will throw out no further information on the explanandum.

No, I am saying that if I tried to say WHAT thoughts were to exist would be speculation. The existance of thoughts is not speculation, but part of our very existance.

You also implicitly admit that the only thing that can be proven for fact is that thought comes from senses and the world around you, the rest would simply be speculation... yet before making those comments you make seemingly absolute claims that "I would not cease to think because thought is not dependent on senses." - "It is not dependent on the outside world to have thoughts."

Your imagination is not dependent on senses. There are two worlds out there. Physical and mental. The physical is the real world. The mental is the imagined world. If you were cut off from the real world, you would have the imbalanced imagined world. The CHANCES are you would be living in a delusion.

Look up remote viewing. That is part of the imagined world. Unlike most though, they have superior control over it, and they are not living a delusion. There is the good possibility that what they will see in their mind will NOT be reality, but there are some who have such ability to see without the senses.

You are contradicting yourself, you make these claims and simultaneously say that no one knows what one would think about. Then where is your evidence that there is thought at all without sense? Don't you see the mistakes you're making?

I'm not being contradictive. You don't need senses to see. You don't need senses to hear. You just have to be able to do something that 99.9% of us can't do lol. Remote viewing is an amazing thing. They can't see, smell, hear, touch, taste this place 100 miles away, yet they see it. They hear things. When you recall a memory, do you use your senses? Yes I know you need your senses to initially have a memory. But in these cases they aren't memories, they are the real world.

Think of a memory from your life 10 years ago. You aren't using any senses, but you can see people, you can hear things. sometimes you can even taste. Now imagine that its not a memory. Imagine that it is happening right now, 2000 miles away.

I know what I think about when I have senses and it is a dfirect by-product of my universe. That is not speculation, that is a fact and on that premise my argument stands and yours crumbles into empty conjecture and literally pointless arguing of non-existent semantics.

From this paragraph it seems you are more interested about winning than discussion. Some superiority complex coming out.

Perhaps your mind is bound to the physical world and you are simply aren't able to see past your own shades. Perhaps it is your inability that hinders you from being able to understand and think beyond what is physically in front of you.

[edit on 27-3-2008 by grimreaper797]