If Death is Only the Beginning, Then Why are We Alive Today?

Originally posted by grimreaper797
I started with "well, no" because you said imagination is some peoples reality. This isn't true. Imagination is some peoples delusion.

Delusion is some peoples reality.

Every thought is of this world and this universe. Once again here you are going to venture into meaningless speculation. Anything you speculate is of this existence as well.

You are your own thoughts. Since you said you are controlled by your own thoughts, and you are your thoughts, and nothing more, then you have control over yourself. You must realize that if you did not have any senses, all that would be left is your thoughts. To be cut off from reality would not mean you are cut off from your imagination.

I am my thoughts, those thoughts I do not control, I am only an action and a reaction of them as they are at their origins an action and a reaction of everything in my life that has happened to me, around me, within me, and thoughts that have come before those thoughts. There is no control. To think that I have control is only becoming a reaction of the concept control and thus becoming ignorant to the concepts out of control, that which I truly am.

Your actions are controlled by your thoughts, and your thoughts are not controlled by the world around you because they are independent of the physical world. Your thoughts aren't dependant upon senses, and senses are the only way you experience the physical world. If you didn't have your senses, you would not experience the physical world and it therefore, could not influence your thoughts.

No, my actions control my thoughts and my thoughts control my actions. Nothing is independent of physicality. Everything is physical, anything non-physical does not exist.

Just because you allow the physical world to effect your thoughts and frame of mind does not mean it is impossible to think without it.

View above. Anything speculating on non-physical I will not deal with. As I said in the last reply, you can talk to yourself about empty conjecture. I won't deal with such argumantative lunacy.

That would require your senses. If you could not look in the mirror. Could not talk or hear the world around you. Could not taste or touch, you would still know you exist. Know why?
"I think, therefore, I am"

Actually you would not know that you exist in such a state. I think I am not, therefore I am not. I don't think, therefore I am thoughtless. Petty one thousand year old logic, it can go either way. I am only a reaction and part of a grand chematic plan of the universe, therefore I am thoughtless and alikened to a droid doing work for the hive.

No, thats an assumption. All you can know is yourself. You cannot know if another is the same as you OR different. Either way is assuming. Its speculation. Speculation is the wrong way to go.

If all I can know is myself then what are you to me? You are me, whether the same or different. Since I know you, based on your logic, then you MUST be me. You do understand the way logic works, don't you? If speculation is the wrong way to go then why is it all you ever do? But I agree, speculation is irrelevent.

We have gone over this before. Just because My house and another person house are both made of brick does not mean they are the same.

We are all the universe, we are all energy, we are all consciousness. C'mon, let's strip away all the senses and see what we're left with. We're all the same thing.

The physical world is like biological legos. Just because every lego block is the same does not mean that the creations of combined lego blocks are the same. Just because we are all made of the same things does not mean we were all made the same way. If we were not all made the same way, in the same form, same combination, we are different. Physically at least. Mentally we don't know because the only thing you know that exists is yourself.

Well, so you say. I mentally know that you exist and I exist. You can make presumptions and assumptions about my knowledge, but that means absolutely nothing to me, keep your opinions to yourself unless you wish to get to know me and truly know my view of existence. Otherwise all you're trying to do is shove your biased view down my throat. If you believe in evolution then we are all generaly made in the same way. If you believe that a sperm an an egg is what it takes to create a Human being and some life forms, then they are created in the same way. etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum. Do we have specific differences? Some would say so. In general we are all the same.

You say we are the same, but you can't even know for certain if I exist. I can't be certain you exist. Neither of us can be certain the other exists. Even physically it is possibly that another person could be a serious delusion of our senses and what we believe is there is not really there.

Am I typing to you? Are you replying? (existence, the universe) I am a thoughtless void (constant action and reaction and perpetual change) immersed in a delusion of thought through a body acting as a conduit for senses (the illusion of individuality) and surrounded by an illusion of choice that which I gather from my delusion of thought.

I am delusional and fully imaginative and it is my reality, therefore anything stemming from this reality is materially true unless it is a blatant lie from another entity.

There is no escape? More like there is no solution. You can't find a way around your senses to see this world we live in. You cannot be certain your senses aren't seeing something that isn't there. Mentally all you can know is yourself. Good solid logic dictates that you CANNOT know for certain of anything but yourself mentally. You can't even be sure of yourself physically.

You keep saying 'yourself', but everything you say does not apply to me. I am 100% certain of myself and my existence and the existence of others. And yes, you can be certain that your senses are seeing something that isn't there, but it's still a combination of your senses and the universe that is creating that vision.

Well then we will have to agree to disagree because thought can continue without the senses. Like I have said, Im not sure WHAT you would think about. The question "do I exist" is not dependent on your senses, but your ability to reason. That is not physical, but mental. "What am I" does not require physical senses.

You can agree to whatever you want to, but I know what I know. Mental is physical, you need a brain to think and all the electromagnetical stipulations that acquire thought. Everything requires and is physical. To think you need a sense even if that sense is only thought itself. Therefore there is no senseless thought. Because to think you must have a sense of self. Thought requires senses and there is no non-physical.

From birth you would most likely never have any thoughts because A. you would not survive long enough and B. to develop without any external help is not something I can imagine. To get to this point in my life without being taught language, math, etc. I simply cannot imagine. It is far too different a world to imagine.

That's because such a world does not exist. As professed by yourself it is non-physical and thus only speculatory and you say you don't like speculation but yet you will contradict yourself just to keep an argument going, not much character veracity nor responsibility or drive to be aware of what you say.

I cannot imagine what thoughts would occur in a person that from birth had no senses, but that does not mean that they would have no thoughts. That just means I cannot imagine it.

That's because your imagination is strictly physical and it is all that reality gives you - physical. Yes, it would. A person with no sense would suffer from complete anencephaly.

But I hope you do realize that if you cannot think, then the idea of a consciousness is just made up in thoughts, in your definition, a reaction to the world. That means there is no individual consciousness, no whole consciousness, no consciousness at all. In order for there to be a consciousness, you need to half something independent of the physical world. According to your defintion, nothing is independent of the physical world.

Precisely. There is one immeasurable consciousness called the universe. It is eternal and is in perfectly constant action and reaction with itself at macro and micro levels.

That means that we are all just matter reacting to other pieces of matter and the consciousness is not really consciousness, but just super complex reactions. Then the only way we are "connected" is by the fact we are all made up of biological legos.

Exactly and the fact that we are all physical and no space absent of physicality could ever exist to separate us.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
To say that there is only a physical world is to deny that you exist. In order for you to exist, your thoughts must be independent of the physical world. Why? Because if you were born with no senses, according to you, you would have no thoughts.

And your proof of me not existing is where? In the non-physical world? Sorry, that world doesn't exist, but have fun with it in your head, your head that exists and absence that you can't imagine but only speculate on. I live in a physical abyss. Everything you say beyond that in the italicized text is true. To have no senses would be to not be able to think. Thoughts consist of senses, whether they are conceptual comprehensions in the form of words or numerics such as numbers, whether they are visual in the form of visions, or tangible in the form of touch (taste etc) without these there is no thought.

If you have no thoughts, you do not exist. Even if you are alive, you do not exist. Physically being here doesn't mean you exist. The reason is because your own physical existance requires you to have senses to process, according to you. If you don't have senses, according to you, you cannot process. If you don't process, you don't exist. A physical compound exists, but not you. You never came into existance to begin with.

Nope. I never said to have no thought is to not exist. Now you're shoving words in myself, this is a bad way of conversing. Physically being here means you exist. Thought comes in different forms. There is the thought of the aggregated universe itself and then there is the thought of the illusions of individuals that are of/in the universe. As individuals we need a brain to process thought, outside of this the universe is its own mind and it is constantly in action and reaction. Revolutions of galaxies and stars and planets etc. The cosmos, even down to us and smaller and larger, the unentire thing together! I exist and the physical compound exists. There was no "coming into existence", energy is eternal... but in this material form I did have my conception.

To me it seems that you are denying the possibility that our brains have become so complex, they have become such biological super computers, that they have tapped into something that is not physical.

Everything is physical. To create something non-physical would never happen and we'd never see it if it did, because something non-physical would mean that it does not consist of energy or universe thus it is utter absence. If I placed absence in front of you it wouldn't be there, that is the non-physical. It is irrelevent. The only absence that exists is eternity and that is the immeasurable presence of the universe.

No, I am saying that if I tried to say WHAT thoughts were to exist would be speculation. The existance of thoughts is not speculation, but part of our very existance.

Well then you need to explain yourself better and/or take more time on your explanations, and don't be afraid to pick up a dictionary or thesaurus to find words that pinpoint in on what you mean. I do it all the time, it's very useful. And it would only be speculation if you couldn't prove it.

Your imagination is not dependent on senses. There are two worlds out there. Physical and mental. The physical is the real world. The mental is the imagined world. If you were cut off from the real world, you would have the imbalanced imagined world. The CHANCES are you would be living in a delusion.

We are living in a delusion. The physical and mental are one and the same.

Look up remote viewing. That is part of the imagined world. Unlike most though, they have superior control over it, and they are not living a delusion. There is the good possibility that what they will see in their mind will NOT be reality, but there are some who have such ability to see without the senses.

Nope, they are still using the senses. They used the senses to discover remote viewing and they use the senses to tap into it.

I'm not being contradictive.

Yes you are and were. You're all over the place. It's almost hard to follow. But I do my best from quote to quote.

You don't need senses to see. You don't need senses to hear. You just have to be able to do something that 99.9% of us can't do lol. Remote viewing is an amazing thing. They can't see, smell, hear, touch, taste this place 100 miles away, yet they see it. They hear things. When you recall a memory, do you use your senses? Yes I know you need your senses to initially have a memory. But in these cases they aren't memories, they are the real world.

Yes, and the real world is physical and they are using a sense to see what they are seeing. They have total trust in the imagination.

Think of a memory from your life 10 years ago. You aren't using any senses, but you can see people, you can hear things. sometimes you can even taste. Now imagine that its not a memory. Imagine that it is happening right now, 2000 miles away.

I'm using my brain where memory is stored, a biological computer. I can taste whatever I am remembering because I have once tasted it, I can hear it because I once heard it, I can see it because I once saw it. Without those senses I have no imagination and no "memory" I use my imagination to cause memory to be restored and I use my memory to imagine it.

From this paragraph it seems you are more interested about winning than discussion. Some superiority complex coming out.

I'm only interested in the truth winning against fallacy, other then that it has nothing to do with you as an individual. If you notice a superiory complex then maybe it's true from your frame of reference. Just a suggestion.

Perhaps your mind is bound to the physical world and you simply aren't able to see past your own shades. Perhaps it is your inability that hinders you from being able to understand and think beyond what is physically in front of you.

You're exactly right. This is where I am and what I am, this is where you are and what you are, this is why you can not think outside of it, because there is no outside of this universe/existent to be thought of!

[edit on 27-3-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

I also need to understand a few things if you could.

What do you call "non-physical"?

What do you refer to as non-existent?

What do you consider to be "thought without senses"? (because remote viewing is used by people who have senses and clearly think)

What do you consider "individual independent thought" without any outside influences whatsoever?

Thanks, if you could, it allow for me to accentuate my understanding of you and thus attune my replies to a mutualism of sensability.

just wanted to chime in and say thanks for both of your contributions.

I havent read everything written yet buts its been a good read so far...
I'll have to take some notes before I reply