Founding Fathers Were Anti-Christians

I feel as though this entire thread has become the whim of the two extremes of bigots. It is ironic that both sides have the same argument: you're wrong and I'm right. And I am not pointing fingers, (or if I am, one of those fingers is at myself.) Even I, in all my quote-slinging glory, feel as though I have succombed to the bigotous temptation to assume that my own beliefs are superior to that of others. I don't think it wrong to defend one's own beliefs, but I fail to see how this is getting us anywhere. Intellectual debate is only as enlightening as it is not condemning of others' personal right to believe whatever they want.

I can justify my beliefs in the lack of religion in our government just as much as somebody else can justify its role in it. One could no doubt argue that the morals of our forefathers were more than a little bit in keeping with Christian ones. However, I could argue that those same morals are fundamental in the human conscience itself. (I'll spare you the obvious Thomas Jefferson quote.) It's an endless cycle that, unbeknownst to me before now, serves no real purpose. (Unless someone can refresh my vigor in this endeavor...)

The lesson I've learned here is that we all justify our own beliefs, and use selective reasoning to do so. (i.e. we filter out the things that don't support our beliefs and only verbalize the things that do.) We all revise history to fit our own paradigm, and there's not necessarily a whole lot wrong with that.

In short, this is why I am an anarchist. I wanna do my own thing, and it's more than fine with me if you do your own thing, too. In the words of Jimmy Durante, (yes, another quote): "Why doesn't everybody leave everybody else the hell alone?"

Originally posted by jimbo999

Also - I infer from your loving, christian post that you obviously have something against Native American people huh?

Ah, word twisting. Always my favorite game people play when they are left with nothing else to argue. Let's not argue what I said- just would you would have preferred me to have said.

Do you not believe Native Americans were slaughtered for the land? Do you not believe they were cruelly given small pox infested blankets on purpose?

I noticed you were patting the back of someone who said this earlier on your thread:

Originally posted by an3rkist
All of our forefathers would be horrified by what America has become, I think. They would probably pack up, catch the next flight to some third world country, kill most of the indigenous people, and start all over.

Yikes. That's fine, though. That is actually how it happened with the founding of America. Yes, your precious deist Thomas Jefferson was a also slave owner. If he was a Christian, we would never hear the end of it.

That is what I am getting at (and I am sure you are not so dense as to not have really understood but are just baiting).

You can't have it both ways. You cannot say the forefathers were fair minded deists while they were framing the constitution but devout Bible believing Christians when they were owning slaves or slaughtering the natives.

Ya dig?

reply to post by AshleyD


As for the quote re: 'slaughtering indigenous people' - I agreed with that??? I don't think so. If you can show me that quote - I'd love to see it. If it does indeed exist - I can assure you that I foolishly did not read the entire post before responding.

Anyone who knows me knows I am a dilligent and vehement warrior for the rights of oppressed peoples. This is why I find some of your posts offensive personally - I feel they are very vindictive and somewhat intollerant. Show me that is not so, and I would be more than happy to refute that. It's not about ego for me - it's simply about truth. Be honest - but be also capable of admitting negligence and mistake.

Adios,

J.

reply to post by an3rkist


I too am from the school of A from many, many years back - so I understand your dilemma. Berkman? He also understood the nuances of political democracy and how it could be skewed to fit the wearer? Historical revisionism is a powerful tool to accomplish such goals.

What are the moral objectives of our creed if not freedom from oppression, truth, justice and political emancipation? Do we follow religious indoctrination?

Since when?
J.

I think its sad for someone to believe that the founding fathers were anti Christian. I think they were a wildly mixed group of folks that decided england sucked and they all got on a boat and left. People say George Washington was a Deist. Did he believe in God? You bet he did. Did he have a personal visit from an angel in his time of doubt and great need? yep. It sounds to me like he believed what the book says. It doesn't much matter if he carried it or quoted it he had a good understanding within him.

Sure there were atheists on the boats, and many others with all sorts of beliefs, but as a theory Christians were not involved heavily in the founding of the country holds as much water as a colander.

reply to post by jimbo999


Exactly. Word twisting isn't so much fun when it is done to you, is it? Although I'm Swedish and Irish, I'm a fraction of native American as well. So you better get your facts straight and quit twisting my words.

I said: People love to point out how Christians founded this country as long as the topic of discussion is slave ownership or slaughtering the natives but suddenly everyone is a deist when they were creating the constitution. You can't have it both ways and alter the history of our nation to fit your own agenda.

You said: Ashley is racist.

See? Word twisting.

Originally posted by an3rkist
I have nothing against morals, on the contrary actually, but the fact is that they do not belong in offices like the President.

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman"

Would that mean you prefer an immoral President? I can't believe that this is what you would actually want. The President should be a beacon of morality, truth, and selflessness. What would that look like. Why George Washington of course. If only we could find a man of such morals and integrity today. We should be so lucky.

Originally posted by dbates

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman"

Would that mean you prefer an immoral President? I can't believe that this is what you would actually want. The President should be a beacon of morality, truth, and selflessness. What would that look like. Why George Washington of course. If only we could find a man of such morals and integrity today. We should be so lucky.

I agree that we need a President more like George Washington, but it has nothing to do with his moral principles. As for the question of would I rather have an immoral President, (have any of us been alive long enough to have anything to compare?): I would rather have an immoral President than have one who tramples on my individual rights in the name of his own personal moral principles.

Personally, I don't think it was any of our business whether Bill Clinton had sexual relations with another woman or not. I don't even condemn him for perjuring himself, because it was HIS business and not ours. Our only business with him is what actually affects us. If his sexual relations began to get in the way of his responsibilities to the people, then I would have a problem with it. Otherwise, the President can do whatever he wants with his personal life and it makes no difference to me, so long as he continues to do his duty to the people.

Originally posted by jimbo999
What are the moral objectives of our creed if not freedom from oppression, truth, justice and political emancipation?

Unfortunately, as has been mentioned, "freedom" and "oppression" are relative terms. One man's freedom is another's oppression. This is the inherent flaw in all of the arguments from both sides of the spectrum on this, and many, if not all, other philosophical and yes, even historical, debates. One man sees freedom in being told that he cannot do certain things, (justified when you consider that those things he is told to refrain from are things that enslave the individual), and another man sees freedom as being able to make mistakes no matter the consequences and despite all related verifiable human experience.

I would also like to add that whether or not you and I share a common stigma, (not directed at you personally, necessarily), that in no way suggests you and I share a common creed, or common morals. As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, even those who are considered Christian by some, are considered satanists by others.

Originally posted by Illahee
Did he believe in God? You bet he did. Did he have a personal visit from an angel in his time of doubt and great need? yep.

This is what I'm talking about: using history in our own way to justify our own beliefs. "Did he have a personal visit from an angel in his time of doubt and great need?" How can you honestly answer "yes" to that question? Neither you nor I can say whether he did or didn't. Does history tell us he was a devout Christian? There's a question that can be answered...

Sure there were atheists on the boats, and many others with all sorts of beliefs, but as a theory Christians were not involved heavily in the founding of the country holds as much water as a colander.

Not a single Founding Father has been claimed of being an atheist in this thread. And as I said before I think this is all circular reasoning for our own personal purposes, but I cannot resist saying this:

Whether or not Christians were involved in the founding of this country has little to do with whether or not this country was founded solely or even in large part on Christian principles. Nobody seems to be arguing that some of our Founding Fathers were deists, so by your justification it could also be said that our country is founded on some deist principles. The only point I'm trying to prove here is that we can all justify our personal beliefs with historical "facts", but when it all comes down to it our own personal beliefs should remain personal. (Though if you want to ask what happens when a person's beliefs require them to not do so, I will have to step down, at least to take a breather.)

[edit to add the little quip about not having any moral Presidents in any of our lifetimes. My sense of humor only seems to reach myself...]

[edit on 4/3/08 by an3rkist]

SOME GENERAL INFORMATION FOR ANYONE WHO IS INTERESTED

HERE is an interesting website that breaks down the religion of the founding fathers by individuals, totals, and statistics.

HERE are some pro and con quotes from Jefferson and Washington.

HERE is something from Wikianswers where many different perspectives on the subject are discussed.

HERE is a strictly negative view on the Christian faith of some founders.

So what are we left to conclude? That they were all a mixed bag. Some Protestants, some Catholics, and some Deists. It certainly seems like more of them were Christians than not. It seems the same quotes from Jefferson or Paine are the ones tossed around the most and repeated the most to provide evidence of having Deistic beliefs.

Well, that is as even minded as it is going to get. The good, the bad, the liberating, the confining, the honorable, the disgraceful: all of their beliefs and actions differed from individual to individual. That's pretty fair.

I am laughing my hart out at the lack of foresight that many have when it comes to the humanity of our presidents and their weakness.

Specially slaves at the time.

People get it, they were men and human no gods.

Their morals or lack of it for many of them doesn't take away the fact that they were men of great intelligence and vision.

Originally posted by Illahee
I think its sad for someone to believe that the founding fathers were anti Christian. .

Not only is it sad, it's faulty.

No, the Founding Fathers weren't Christians. Part of the reason they started that little war was that they were tired of being force-fed a state religion. They wanted to be able to choose who and how they worshipped and they felt that other people should have the same choice.

These men are dust now. Leave them be. They had a great idea. They worked hard to implement it and as we speak it is dying. Can't we let it pass with a shred of dignity? Do we have to beat it to death?

Double post.

[edit on 3/5/08 by Sleuth]

Originally posted by Sleuth
No, the Founding Fathers weren't Christians. Part of the reason they started that little war was that they were tired of being force-fed a state religion. They wanted to be able to choose who and how they worshipped and they felt that other people should have the same choice.

So, I take it that you don't think a TRUE Christian believes in freedom of religion? Granted, today's Christians begrudgingly do. However, Christianity as it is practiced today is not Christianity in its purest form.

Originally posted by Sleuth
No, the Founding Fathers weren't Christians. Part of the reason they started that little war was that they were tired of being force-fed a state religion. They wanted to be able to choose who and how they worshipped and they felt that other people should have the same choice.

These men are dust now. Leave them be. They had a great idea. They worked hard to implement it and as we speak it is dying. Can't we let it pass with a shred of dignity? Do we have to beat it to death?

I think you probably better click on the links AshleyD provided above and read them. The Christian status is obvious.

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth

Speaker, I don't know what to believe about anything anymore. Our world is so screwed up it scares me. The Muslims blow themselves to pieces because of their religion. That's pretty sobering to me. It's hard for me, personally, to look at any religion and take it at face value. How do you know who is sincere and who isn't?

If these people will reduce themselves to bits of blood and bone because they think their god benefits by it, I have to wonder about the entire animal. This is complete madness. Only humans are so warped by their own thoughts that they conceive of the most perverse ways to destroy themselves and everything around them. They often invoke a religion when they do it.

I'm not judging religion. I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm saying I'm starting to get very confused about what constitutes a religion.

reply to post by Sleuth


Sleuth, I understand. My views of modern day Christianity and Islam has changed immensely since 9/11. I have even developed a thread about it here: The Islamic And Christian Attempt To Rule The World

You may find it of some interest.

reply to post by dbates


unpatriotic and umamerican?
a bit sensationalistic there...

anyway, i'd have to say something...ol' george wasn't really a founding father
he was instrumental in the founding of this nation, but he didn't play anywhere near the same role as jefferson or franklin did, two people who seem to not get anywhere near as much recognition as he does...




anyway, i'd like to make this point: the founding fathers had no problem saying that the USA was not founded on the christian faith.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
anyway, i'd have to say something...ol' george wasn't really a founding father
he was instrumental in the founding of this nation, but he didn't play anywhere near the same role as jefferson or franklin did, two people who seem to not get anywhere near as much recognition as he does...

I think, considering that they elected him to be the first President of the Republic, (by a unanimous vote, no less), amongst a plethora of other things he did making him an absolutely integral part of founding this nation, it is unwarranted for you to say whether he was more or less important than any of the others.

[edit on 5/3/08 by an3rkist]

If the founding fathers were as Christian and many are trying to portrait here in this thread specially the fundamentalist opinionated ones we will be living in a nation that will make Muslin Islamic a walk in the park.

Yes our founding fathers were not Godless and they were not bible thumper either very clear by their actions they didn't wanted anybody tell them how to worship either.

Something that in today’s society is hard to ignore as fundamentalist are trying to push their version of what a Good Christian nation and Christian person should be specially around this forum lately.