Ask a Christian (even about the paranormal)

reply to post by saint4God


He's the most energetic and sweet little chihuahua!
Pre-tribulation means the Rapture BEFORE the Great Tribulation.
I'll be back, later, The Lord willing...

reply to post by saint4God


The Great tribulation, I believe is mostly referred to in Revelations.
It is supposed to last for 7 years. There will be widespread famine, plagues war, pestilence, etc.
A lot of believers believe they will be taken out before it begins (pre-trib) Some in the midst (mid-trib), After tribulation (a-trib) or post-trib..

[edit on 6-3-2008 by sizzle]

Originally posted by sizzle
Seems to me that it wouldn't make much sense to have people killed for not believing,

Hard to convert people and use our mind control powers when they're dead. @_@ Booga booga booga! Why kill anyone when we can grow our own massive army to dominate the world with...uh...love?

Originally posted by sizzle
when as long as there is breath in their bodies, there is a chance for them to change their minds (hearts).
"For as many as believed, gave He the authority to become the sons of God."

This is the essense of hope, one of the most important and powerful tools we can wield as believers...and why I will rail against someone telling me I'm casting pearls to someone unworthy every time.

reply to post by saint4God


Saint,
What is your views on reincarnation?
What in your opinion does the Bible say about it? Or does it?

Edit: This question is also open to anyone else who wishes to offer an opinion.

[edit on 6-3-2008 by sizzle]

Originally posted by sizzle
The Great tribulation, I believe is mostly referred to in Revelations.
It is supposed to last for 7 years. There will be widespread famine, plagues war, pestilence, etc.
A lot of believers believe they will be taken out before it begins (pre-trib) Some in the midst (mid-trib), After tribulation (a-trib) or post-trib..

Ah, ye olde heavy on the Thessalonians sentences versus the heavy on the Revelation chapter question. My position on the matter is this. I'll be dead before either and completely unaware of what's occurring until I'm woken up. Although I've never heard of "mid" nor know any scriptures to back it, it sounds to me there are two groups of Christians (outlined better in Revelation and Thessalonians) whereas there are those who are present and those who are already dead. So in Thessalonians, I believe it's taking about the latter whereas Revelation is an eyewitness account of the former. So...is there a both'a-tribulationistatarianismist? I think that's where I'll be. Support for this would be here:

"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." - Revelation 20:4-6

And...

"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books." - Revelation 20:11-12

In any case, pre, post, mid, or both, who is going to throw up a flag and shout to God "foul!"

[edit on 6-3-2008 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God


I like what my former pastor said about it.
He said he preferred to believe that he was going out pre-trib, but if he didn't; he would go thru it on steak and Blue-Bell ice cream!
Based on the scripture, "For my God shall supply all my needs according to His riches and glory in Christ Jesus!"

[edit on 6-3-2008 by sizzle]

Originally posted by sizzle
Saint,
What is your views on reincarnation?

Haven't we had this discussion before? Maybe like in a previous life? Do you believe in De Ja Vu? Do you believe in De Ja Vu?

The conceptual difficulty (religion aside) is IF this were to occur, what would be the point? If you remember nothing, learn nothing, then what's the motivation for doing anything?

Originally posted by sizzle
What in your opinion does the Bible say about it?

Reincarnation isn't in the Bible.

Originally posted by sizzle
Or does it?

No, but there's a religious group that would benefit greatly from Christians who would believe such. Researching them will give motivation to this rumor.

reply to post by saint4God


Personally, I do not believe in it either, but had brought it up in hopes that it might enlighten someone else.
Before I was saved, I believed in it, because I had constant feelings of de ja vu`. But someone explained to me, that it probably was passed through genetically. Sounded feasible.

Originally posted by sizzle
Personally, I do not believe in it either, but had brought it up in hopes that it might enlighten someone else.

There are some who believe in pre-carnation...that is, before you are who you are, you were something. Like energy of sorts that God would draw upon and use. The principle is based on the Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy whereas energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Genesis supports this claim in two places:

"the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." - Genesis 2:7

Ah, carbon (dust), the basic building block of life. That and oxygen (breath) to keep us functioning.

Who was the first ever to clone? Well, God of course:

"So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man." - Genesis 2:21-22

We know that within bone is T-cells that can be used for cloning. These protocells do not have a set 'program' genetically speaking that we're aware of until they mature. Only then are we ablet to tell what these cells were going to be. The Genetic Engineer of mankind took the T-cells, tweaked the program and behold a modified Adam. Modadam was on the Eve of sexual reproduction, an autonomous method of the new multi-generational mankind complete with variance and yet templates of the parents.

Originally posted by sizzle
Before I was saved, I believed in it, because I had constant feelings of de ja vu`.

There may be something to this from a physics standpoint. Remembering that "time" is contruct of man, not a universal reality. All time is, is a sequencing of events. If there is no sequencing of events, how do you know how much "time" has passed? Try it out. Lock yourself in a room with no movement, no sound, no change at all, and no clock. Don't monitor your breathing and keep your eyes closed so there's no blinking. Then come out when you think two hours is up. Were you close? Why or why not?

So when we see things in reverse sequence, we say the movie (or whatever) is going 'back in time' yet it's playing is going forward in time...so which is it? Blackholes are even more fun. Time slows down. Really? Well, kind of. From our persepective time slows down but what about from those on the edge? Does time speed up? Or slow down also? Stay the same. "Time" then begins to unravel. What if De Ja Vu is merely a recognition of a parallel time...not to mention dimension. What is it that you recognize exactly? It doesn't have to be something you'd experienced in the past. These are the fun mysteries of the universe.

Originally posted by sizzle
But someone explained to me, that it probably was passed through genetically. Sounded feasible.

I'd blame physics faster than I'd blame biology. That kind of information does not pass through genetically. What were your parents doing in October 17th, 1951? Why don't you remember?

[edit on 6-3-2008 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God

What were your parents doing in October 17th, 1951? Why don't you remember?

Saint4God

Uh....
I wasn't born yet.....??
Was that the answer you were looking for?

Btw,
I have been studying a bit on quantum physics lately. I have even run across a few theories that we choose to be born. Not sure what to think about that one yet.
[edit on 6-3-2008 by sizzle]

[edit on 6-3-2008 by sizzle]

Originally posted by sizzle
Uh....
I wasn't born yet.....??

Was that the answer you were looking for?

Sounds good, seems to go against the idea that it probably was passed through genetically.

Originally posted by sizzle
Btw,
I have been studying a bit on quantum physics lately. I have even run across a few theories that we choose to be born. Not sure what to think about that one yet.

I wondered about that. In my thinkings before and after Christianity, if we were there with God and asked us to pick out a time we wanted to be in...or what we wanted to look like ideally then we'd get what the environment does to do that. But, as I create characters on games like World of Warcraft, I recognize that I don't ask the characters what they want to be . I make them how I think they should be and run with it. To get a bit Greek about it all, perhaps what we are is a shadow of what we'll become? The perfect form is waiting for us and the more distant we are from that here, the greater the inheritance after.

I like talking about overview of physics theory, but if someone busts out the math and details, surely I'll be lost. My 'faith' is that they're crunching the numbers correctly to give me these answers.

[edit on 6-3-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by dave420

 

The God of the bible seems to be a complete tool, too - showing off, killing people, causing suffering for no reason. Why did he have to send Jesus down to die for our sins? Couldn't he have just said "ok, everyone's saved" and let it be? Or was he showing off for his humble creations?

Showing off? If I remember correctly, God only 'showed off' at certain times, for certain people, where absolutely necessary for His purposes. (Parting of the Red Sea, etc.) In one of Jesus' parables, a rich man asked for someone to be raised from the dead in order to convince his family of the truth of the prophets. He was refused.

Killing people? Causing suffering? For no reason? Really? Where did He do that?

As far as Jesus dying for our sins, what would be the result if he just said "ok, everyone's saved"? The result would be that people would happily go along in their life, as though nothing had changed. There would be more evil, more intolerance, more hatred, for no one would consider such a casual 'saving' as important. By doing it His way, those of us who believe can realize the awful price that had to be paid, and therefore be thankful enough to try and better our ways toward our fellow human beings, and toward God.

As for the moral guidance the bible gives, it's disgusting. Saying to rape women and kill non-believers, etc. It's horriffic.

I do believe you have mixed the Bible up with the Koran. Would you please tell me where it says these things? If you can, then you might be able to change my mind. There's you some motivation!

And don't even get me started on organised religion. That in itself screams "God doesn't exist" louder than anything else.

Ah, the evils of organized religion. eerily similar to the evils of organized government, organized clubs (KKK, FreeMasons)... I believe the common thread here is 'organized', not 'religion', and therefore the finger of evil would appear to point at the organizers... men, not God, just as the Bible says.

I believe having faith in something without evidence is as close to stupid an intelligent person can get to, in so much that they're voluntarily giving up their critical mind so they can believe something.

Hmmm, so that would apply to everyone who believes in evolution, aliens, UFOs, all sorts of research at Area 51, anti-gravity, free energy... shall I go on? There's going to be a LOT of angry ATSers...

Perhaps you should look at the religion called Christianity again, with a skeptical eye, of course, but also with an eye on the facts. Your questions appear to be slightly confused.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck


He was showing off when he returned as Jesus and killed himself. He didn't have to do that, surely - he's God and capable of anything. Yet he still went through with that show of amateur dramatics for someone, obviously not us.

As for suffering? Well, what about Job? He certainly got the short-end of that stick. He was used as a pawn, for no reason other than to settle a dispute.

I've read enough of the bits of the bible to realise God is a grade-A dick. A creator who's capable of anything, yet he demands we worship him? How insecure and petty does a deity have to be to demand worship? Couple that with the fact he couldn't even have his own biography published without it contradicting itself. It doesn't sound like it was written about a perfect being.

I'll leave you with these quotes. Read some of those and come back here and tell me he really loves us. Sounds like a dysfunctional relationship where the battered woman won't kick her husband out because she loves him too much. Disgusting.

[edit on 7/3/08 by dave420]

reply to post by TheRedneck

Hmmm, so that would apply to everyone who believes in evolution, aliens, UFOs, all sorts of research at Area 51, anti-gravity, free energy... shall I go on? There's going to be a LOT of angry ATSers...

Evolution shouldn't be on there, as there's a metric shedload of evidence supporting the theory. Area 51 exists, obviously, as we have documented evidence of it from multiple sources, satellite imagery of it, video footage of it from the ground, etc. Anti-gravity, free-energy, and aliens, however, are completely lacking supporting evidence, so of course I'm not going to believe in them until that's addressed. UFOs obviously exist, as that means any object in the sky that we aren't able to identify. Most of them are terrestrial craft, weather phenomena, or celestial phenomena.

I've looked at Christianity with an objective eye (I look at everything like that), and that's why I don't like it or understand why anyone with a logical outlook on life can wish to believe it.

Hmm...many statements...not much questions...oh! Here's some:

Originally posted by dave420
As for suffering? Well, what about Job?

Job did suffer. In the end, he received better than what he started with. This principle is not merely true with God, but also with school, work, family, friends and so forth. School sucks, but having that degree...oh the places you'll go! Why then do they make you go? Why not hand diploma's to everyone? Everyone says, "Good day to you doctor!" "And to you doctor" "Where you going today?" "To see the doctor" "Oh? Which one?" *chuckle chuckle* Death and malpractice suits abound because nobody really knows how to do the job.

Originally posted by dave420
I've read enough of the bits of the bible

Ah yes, a bit here, a bit there. That fruit looks nice! Oh no, that one looks bad, let's throw it out.

Originally posted by dave420
to realise God is a grade-A dick.

If God is creator of all things, this make you... ?

Originally posted by dave420
A creator who's capable of anything, yet he demands we worship him?

Ah, I see that you are dead because you refuse His 'demand'.

Originally posted by dave420
How insecure and petty does a deity have to be to demand worship?

How insecure and petty for a husband to seek the love of his wife! Ad infinitum.

[edit on 7-3-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by dave420
I've looked at Christianity with an objective eye (I look at everything like that),

Obviously. Only your conclusions are biased...right?

[edit on 7-3-2008 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God


That was the worst defense of God ever. How does what I, or any human, do defend God? God's PERFECT, yet he does all this screwed-up stuff.

You volunteer for your work, you don't get it forced on you (as God forced suffering on Job). People might desire the love of their significant others, but then God doesn't have an equal, and should be above desire, as he's PERFECT, yet somehow he's still allowed to act like a petulent child when he sees fit.

Get some logic to your debate

Originally posted by dave420
That was the worst defense of God ever.

Nah, I've heard worse.

Originally posted by dave420
How does what I, or any human, do defend God?

God is in no need of defense.

Originally posted by dave420
God's PERFECT, yet he does all this screwed-up stuff.

Screwed up to you, perhaps.

Originally posted by dave420
You volunteer for your work, you don't get it forced on you (as God forced suffering on Job).

Parents spank their children. Their children did not volunteer to get spanked. Is this action unnecessary?

Originally posted by dave420
People might desire the love of their significant others, but then God doesn't have an equal,

Apologies that the analogy was too distant for you. Why would a parent seek the loving approval from his/her children?

Originally posted by dave420
and should be above desire,

The assumption here is that all desire is bad. Why would you suggest such? Should we all desire nothing? If God did not care/desire, why create anything?

Originally posted by dave420
as he's PERFECT, yet somehow he's still allowed to act like a petulent child when he sees fit.

One has to have the ability to take a step back and look at the big picture. If all you can see is on dot on the canvas, then certainly to you it is not art. As mentioned before, Job received greater gifts because of his loyalty and faith. In addition, mankind received a lesson from God, which in itself a very generous gift. For someone who loves to wallow in the mire of ignorance, then perhaps this is no gift at all, but for me I'm grateful for this teaching.

Originally posted by dave420
Get some logic to your debate

Gotten, thank you. The difficulty is helping you see it.

Originally posted by dave420
He was showing off when he returned as Jesus and killed himself.

Suicide by crucifixion? Or would this be assisted suicide since the Romans and Sanhedrin all had a hand in it? Neither, really. If you took a bullet for your child, would that be suicide? No. It would be self sacrifice. He was the 'good shepherd' who laid down His life for 'His sheep.'

He didn't have to do that, surely - he's God and capable of anything. Yet he still went through with that show of amateur dramatics for someone, obviously not us.

Oh yes, it was obviously for us. You too, Super Dave. It's written clearly in the Bible. Or are those parts the ones you skipped over while reading the 'bits?'

As for suffering? Well, what about Job? He certainly got the short-end of that stick. He was used as a pawn, for no reason other than to settle a dispute.

Job was an example of extreme faithfulness even through testing. Go back and read the book from start to finish. You can even get Job's perspective on the whole situation.

I've read enough of the bits of the bible to realise God is a grade-A dick.

Ya, 'bits and pieces' being the defining phrase. Context? Let's not worry about such details.

A creator who's capable of anything, yet he demands we worship him? How insecure and petty does a deity have to be to demand worship?

I hope my son grows up to love me and respect me. Nothing to do with insecurity.

Couple that with the fact he couldn't even have his own biography published without it contradicting itself. It doesn't sound like it was written about a perfect being.

Biblical contradictions? I don't think so. Yes, yes. I've seen the lists from Google with titles like "101 Bible contradictions.' Whoever makes those things has the spiritual IQ of a pea. Or the stuff from the Skeptic's Annotated Bible website. Their knowledge and logic is downright frightening.

I'll leave you with these quotes.

Explained a million times.

Read some of those and come back here and tell me he really loves us. Sounds like a dysfunctional relationship where the battered woman won't kick her husband out because she loves him too much. Disgusting.

So your entire argument rests on the logical fallacy called 'argument by outrage.' What that means is basically we don't like it so it cannot be true. Since I am 'outraged' my 'argument' is that it cannot be real. I suppose you can also tell me rape, murder, animal cruelty, etc. also does not exist. But we cannot do this. However, that is still a poor analogy.

No one can deny Jesus was a very loving being. Jesus said if you have known Him, you have known the Father.

People love to isolate certain passages in the OT that make God out to be evil. However, they willingly forget all the passages that show him being a loving, tender caretaker. In the NT, they forget the parts where Jesus criticizes the pharisees and teaches about Hell. So it looks like we have the same God. Love and mercy, but judgment and chastisement. Sorry you are 'outraged' by things you do not understand but burying your head in the sand will not make reality crumble.

I have a question or statement in general.
Before joining ATS, I really had no idea that there was such blatant hatred for Christianity (see thread:www.abovetopsecret.com...&addstar=1&on=4088774#pid4088774)
I have friends and acquaintances that are not necessarily Christians, or believers. Probably even Atheists. But we are able to discuss things on a tolerant, mature level. We just have calm exchanges of ideas and opinions.
It causes me to wonder what the difference is.
Is it really a different calibre of people here, or is it just easier to be rude and unkind when you are hiding behind avatars and user ID's?
It makes me reluctant to even try to discuss these things because of the hostilities.