Ask a Christian (even about the paranormal)

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posted on Mar, 5 2008 @ 10:12 AM
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reply to post by rizla
 


Can't imagine why anyone with any level of intelligence would hang out in a thread that they were so obviously bored with. If it were me, and I were yawning so intensely, I think I could find something much more stimulating on this board. Unless my sole intention was to be a troublemaker and an irritant.




posted on Mar, 5 2008 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God
By request from a friend, I'm opening this thread to give an opportunity for anyone to ask any questions of me as a believer.


Hey there, Saint4God! Enjoying the thread.

I have a question for you. I know there are some preachers, who in the past, had deliverance ministries, delivering people from demons, and often you would see these ministers, delivering Christians from ceratin demons. I want to know what your opinion on this is?

If I may interject my thinking here, for you to weigh upon, I don't believe it is possible for a genuine believer, one who is filled with the Holy Spirit, to be dual possessed, by a demon and by the Holy Spirit, at the same time. It's my opinion, that these Christians, whom these ministers are supposedly delivering from evil spirits, were just assuming they were Christians, even though seated in a congregation. Otherwise, like I said, I just can't comprehend Christians being dual possessed, although, I do believe a Christian can be heavily oppressed.



posted on Mar, 5 2008 @ 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by sizzle
Okay, here is a question, not necessarily pointed directly to S4G, but to anyone who may have indepth knowledge on the subject of Adam's supposed first wife, Lillith. Is there any truth to this?


Depends? Are you asking a protestant, or an Orthodox Jew?
And then it goes further if you say the latter as the way thing are interpreted are quite a bit different to the former.


Research is fun.
"Study and show theyself approved" - somewhere Bible
"seek and you will find when you search with all your heart - not dogma" - somewhere in Bible too.


Peace

dAlen



posted on Mar, 5 2008 @ 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by sizzle
I am by no means encouraging seances. I believe that they are an open door to other dangerous entities. Just my personal opinion.



Originally posted by jdposey
If I may interject my thinking here, for you to weigh upon, I don't believe it is possible for a genuine believer, one who is filled with the Holy Spirit, to be dual possessed, by a demon and by the Holy Spirit, at the same time.


Perhaps the scariest thing, for most, is unlocking the unconscious side of the mind before they are ready. 'Ego' has a lot to play with what possession is truly about. (to a large degree)


Peace

dAlen

[edit on 5-3-2008 by dAlen]



posted on Mar, 5 2008 @ 02:09 PM
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Originally posted by dAlen

Originally posted by sizzle
Okay, here is a question, not necessarily pointed directly to S4G, but to anyone who may have indepth knowledge on the subject of Adam's supposed first wife, Lillith. Is there any truth to this?


Depends? Are you asking a protestant, or an Orthodox Jew?
And then it goes further if you say the latter as the way thing are interpreted are quite a bit different to the former.


Research is fun.
"Study and show theyself approved" - somewhere Bible
"seek and you will find when you search with all your heart - not dogma" - somewhere in Bible too.



dAlen
Ya know, we might could all either actually either literally put forth some effort and create an atmosphere of learning or we could turn it into yet another religious war. Isn't there enough of those on this board already? I think my question and it's direction was clear enough, without all the fanfare.


[edit on 5-3-2008 by sizzle]

[edit on 5-3-2008 by sizzle]



posted on Mar, 5 2008 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by dAlen

Originally posted by sizzle
I am by no means encouraging seances. I believe that they are an open door to other dangerous entities. Just my personal opinion.



Originally posted by jdposey
If I may interject my thinking here, for you to weigh upon, I don't believe it is possible for a genuine believer, one who is filled with the Holy Spirit, to be dual possessed, by a demon and by the Holy Spirit, at the same time.


Perhaps the scariest thing, for most, is unlocking the unconscious side of the mind before they are ready. 'Ego' has a lot to play with what possession is truly about. (to a large degree)


Peace

dAlen

[edit on 5-3-2008 by dAlen]

Maybe a Christian cannot become possessed. I wouldn't want to push the envelope to find out. But I do believe that you can become seriously 'Oppressed!'



posted on Mar, 5 2008 @ 10:55 PM
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Originally posted by jdposey
I have a question for you. I know there are some preachers, who in the past, had deliverance ministries, delivering people from demons, and often you would see these ministers, delivering Christians from ceratin demons. I want to know what your opinion on this is?

If I may interject my thinking here, for you to weigh upon, I don't believe it is possible for a genuine believer, one who is filled with the Holy Spirit, to be dual possessed, by a demon and by the Holy Spirit, at the same time. It's my opinion, that these Christians, whom these ministers are supposedly delivering from evil spirits, were just assuming they were Christians, even though seated in a congregation. Otherwise, like I said, I just can't comprehend Christians being dual possessed, although, I do believe a Christian can be heavily oppressed.


Forgive me if I am out of line here (you did ask saint), but I would like to weigh in on this matter.

Being a Christian is not the same as being filled with the Holy Ghost. A Christian is simply one who attempts to follow Christ's example. The Holy Ghost is available to all who believe in God and Jesus, and who are able to receive Him. So it is possible for someone to be a Christian and also possessed, although I do believe it would be a difficult challenge for the possessing spirit. I do not think the Holy Ghost and a demonic spirit could co-inhabit one body, as it would destroy the demon.

The cardinal rule in exorcism is to protect yourself, because a demon that is forced out of one person can inhabit another and they have reportedly been known to inhabit even priests. So this goes to show that even priests are not necessarily filled with the Holy Ghost.

Also, on the Ouija board, I believe they are very real. They can open a doorway to the spiritual word. Yes, they can contact angels, but they can also contact demons. So, would you open a door, not knowing if the being on the other side was good or a mass-murderer? I wouldn't. I won't.

Oh, and don't forget one definitive aspect of demons. They lie.

TheRedneck



posted on Mar, 5 2008 @ 11:05 PM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 

I have a friend that had a horrible experience with a Ouija board. It scared the living daylights out of her when the pointer spun around the room and then slammed itself into a wall when she and her husband asked it a certain question. She used to also practice a little "white magic", let's say. The Ouija board experience cured her of all experimentation with the occult and she found Jesus quickly.

This stuff is nothing to play around with. If she weren't one of the most honest people I know, I wouldn't have believed her in an earlier time in my life. But now I know it happened to her just like she said it did.



posted on Mar, 5 2008 @ 11:37 PM
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Originally posted by sizzleYa know, we might could all either actually either literally put forth some effort and create an atmosphere of learning or we could turn it into yet another religious war. Isn't there enough of those on this board already? I think my question and it's direction was clear enough, without all the fanfare.


Is the glass half empty or half full?
Life is only as you make it.

Point is you saw my post how you wanted to see it, by no means am I creating a religious war...quite funny you would think that. Whose side would you think Im on anyway? (I have no sides just to be clear)

Peace

dAlen

p.s. no you werent clear.
See what you may not realize is that each denomination and then group (jew who is the root of Christianity) believes differently. Trust me on this, or look it up yourself if you want.

So it does matter.

Its the same as asking S4G an opinion on Christianity.
He/she can speak for themself, but unless they are giving you the background from all the denominations, you will be limited to their opinion and experience. (which is not bad, but it is as it is.)

I have said many a time, but in mainstream, evangelical Christianity, 3 of its main groups dont even agree on then tenets of salvation
The Presbyterians, Southern Baptist, & Pentecostal.

If you are in one of the groups, and you are wrong according to the others, you will wind up in hell. Now how is that for consistency on the main doctrine?

Now when you get to something lesser like discussing the beginning and topics like lilith, you will get various answers. More consistent amongst evangelicals than Jews...but still.

So see, Im not creating the religious war. I truly want to help, ironically, answer you question. But answer it without the fluff.

This stuff take true research and seeking, there is not a quick answer.

You surprise me a little, perhaps not much. You seemed to have wanted the truth, but have settled very quickly on what that truth is. You have to let water out of the glass if you want to put new water in it. Or get a larger bowl.


Peace

dAlen

[edit on 5-3-2008 by dAlen]



posted on Mar, 5 2008 @ 11:43 PM
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Originally posted by sizzle
Maybe a Christian cannot become possessed. I wouldn't want to push the envelope to find out. But I do believe that you can become seriously 'Oppressed!'


Actually, again many Christians will not understand this...but they dont understand what possession truly is -

And before you hint, as I believe you did in another post, that Im creating a religious war...remember I was an zionist, evangelical, zealot Christian...now Im just Christian. And I did not lack experience. Was saved at 6, went to Christian school my whole life basically, went to Bible college, was a missionary, and worked for one of the largest ministries directly with its pastor for almost 5 years. Ive studied Judaism directly with Orthodox and Chassidic rabbis for 7+ years. I do know just a little what Im talking about.


But the thing is, talking to a evangelical is hard because you have to talk the exact lingo so they can get the flow. And then you have to talk to them at the denomination they are in to get what your saying. And even more, this board has non Christians here, so you have to again use words to get everyone aboard. Sorry - doesnt work. And its obvious as someone always misses out on what I say.


But blow aside any info and experience I may have after I say the following, as it will be a bit direct...but Christians are the primary ones suffering from possession.
Maybe one day we will go into what that really is, or you will find out through your own research. But it aint what you think it is. Well, there is more to it, and its a bit more practical then most people think. Its what keeps most Christians stuck in their dogma.


Peace

dAlen
- Im what you get when you throw a Jew, Baptist, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Orthodox, together, Ill make sense out of all of the above's inconsistencies.

Or better yet, bring out the light from each...that is better put.

[edit on 5-3-2008 by dAlen]



posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 07:12 AM
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Originally posted by sizzle
Okay, here is a question, not necessarily pointed directly to S4G, but to anyone who may have indepth knowledge on the subject of Adam's supposed first wife, Lillith. Is there any truth to this?


Nope. There's 'juicy' motivation to spreading the rumor though. I'd encourage anyone to investigate who would want to make this claim and why.

[edit on 6-3-2008 by saint4God]



posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 07:36 AM
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Originally posted by Prote
Hello saint, long time no speak.


Good to see you! I always enjoy a civilized conversation
.


Originally posted by Prote
I have a question (or two) for you, I know you'll give me an honest christian perspective...


Much appreciated, I shall do my best.


Originally posted by Prote
How many dimensions or levels of existence do you think there are?


2. Oooh, I'm so tempted to just leave it at that. Okay okay, I'll be fair. There are at least two that we know of (and whether they are entirely separate is arguable. We have this life, the living and then there's the next life or post-mortem. Biblically it talks about a second life (not the goofy internet game) after this one and even a second death...which is apparently far worse than the first. HOWEVER! I love that word. It means "I could be completely underestimating what I've just said" there doesn't seem to be a God-given cap on dimensions. It's important to define what exactly a dimension is. Dictionarily speaking (new word invented) it says " a level of existence or consciousness". Technically then, one can say that they go through several dimensions in their life as they age and grow in experience. What qualifies when one dimension ends and another begins? That's why I chose death to be a key marker in going from one to another...because our understanding will be completely different after that. Even our physical state disappears and gives way to a more pure spiritual one.

Physics seems to have yet another definition of dimension. It basically goes by the rules or natural laws to determine a single dimension. For example, if time, space and gravity behave this way, that's one dimension whereas if it behaves a different way that's a second dimension. It's pretty compatible, to say both in faith and physics there is at least more than one dimension. Is the physics second dimension a tapping into the faith second dimension? Could be...or maybe there are different ones for each. This could get fun! I get excited just thinking about it and would be glad to expand on it should there be any specific questions on it. One great class in college was Quarks, Quasars and Blackholes where they talk about general relativity and special relativity. General relativity was easy for me...but that special relativity stuff is mind-boggling even at the most basic level. It just doesn't seem to make sense...and yet, if we're willing to accept that the rules of the universe are arbitrary to the way God wants them it does. I had two dreams on the topic that really helped me learn a bit about how 'inside the box' I think scientifically. It's embarrassing and enlightning at the same time.


Originally posted by Prote
I have met some... and come to realise that there are more types or species of both spiritual and physical entities/beings than I could probably ever imagine. How do you know that the God you have proof of is the one at the very top of the tree and not simply a higher enitity(ies)?


Very good question. I called a meeting. It's a stupidly dangerous thing to do and would not recommend anyone repeat the mistake. IF I had just asked God in the first place it would've saved a lot of pain and struggle...because when you invite everybody, somebody you don't want is more than likely going to show up. I'm not opposed to higher-than-human alien entities, but they were a no-show which demonstrated either a lack of interest or lack of ability to show. Also, after seeing God capabilities, there is no way possible God would get pwned. Although God is at the top of the tree, I'm certainly open to the idea that we're only one leaf on it.


Originally posted by Prote
I think it was Arthur C. Clarke that once said "Any advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".


To the ignorant this is true. I don't mean this as an insult, only that if you do not know, then yes, perhaps it seems 'magical'. That's one conclusion one can draw...yet, even a skeptical caveman would likely think "there's got to be SOME manmade explanation, as amazing as this is..." I could be wrong, but one only need to look at the community on ATS here to agree.


Originally posted by Prote
I think this is also true of beings. Any significantly advanced entity would be indistinguishable from God(s) (by humans).


Could be. I think for some people this would be the case, but consider the minds of mankind to be a bit more sophisticated and aware of alternative possibilities.


Originally posted by Prote
What is your perspective on this.

Peace
~Prote


Basically the four gospels could be renamed "Jesus versus the skeptics". If you read any of those four with that in mind, you can count the skeptics like bowling pins coming up to Christ saying, "Ah! But what about this!" or "Don't your realize that..." or "You couldn't be what you say because..." After a few read-throughs, I felt empathetic to Christ having to explain, clarify, testify, and re-explain things over and over again in different ways. I'm probably in the minority in this thinking, but I think the Hebrews were the chosen people by God because they were very cynical and legalistic in thinking. In other words, if you can convince the ancient Hebrews, you could convince anybody



posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 07:46 AM
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Originally posted by sizzle
I think I just found something that better explains what I was trying to say about ghosts and familiar spirits:

Necromancy, a supposed communication with the dead, is a facet of the familiar spirit's operation. Necromancy is an outright deception. Rather than communicating with a particular person, the medium is in contact with a spirit which is familiar with that dead person. The spirit is able to give information and produce manifestations which lead the necromancer to suppose that he has contacted the spirit of a certain dead person.
home.mchsi.com...


Although I'm inclined to agree, it takes a bit of faith to do so without having person involvement with being deceived in this way. I'm not very confident in some other things the article has to say, such as...


Originally posted by sizzle
Rock Music. Those who are hooked on rock music are usually very defensive and unteachable. This rejection of truth is because rock music is a "religion" to the devotee, and to suggest that someone should give up his religion is a serious threat. Rock music requires as definite a commitment as does Christianity.


So...when I go to my church on sunday and they're singing christian rock songs, should I stand up, tell them to stop and demand that they reject music being played and sung to God? If so, we need to throw the book of Psalms out of the Bible. Psalms = songs. What about the Song of Solomon?

"Psalm 6
For the director of music. With stringed instruments. According to sheminith"

Stringed instruments? Like a guitar? How sinful!

"Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all ye lands.
Serve the Lord with gladness;" Psaulm 100

I doubt they're talking about our armpits.

Don't get me wrong, I think there's some music with not so nice messages in the music, but we have ears to hear them and eyes to read the lyrics in addition to our brain to comprehend the message being sent. From there, we must decide if that is a message we want on our hearts.

I also don't mean to rail against what's being presented sizzle, I am a skeptic like other ATS'ers and believe in helping believers just as much as helping non-believers.

[edit on 6-3-2008 by saint4God]



posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 07:52 AM
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Originally posted by rizla
Doesn't mean it's the Devil.


Although this is true, the devil when I met him seemed quite pleased to announce who is was and what he wanted.


Originally posted by rizla
Did he try asking if it was God?


No, I'm not sure they believed in God and were not seeking Him through a Ouiji board. Usually God seekers try something like church or prayer. God also has no problem distinguishing who He is, it's us humans that tend to muck it up.


Originally posted by rizla
Try it, and let us know what happens.


It was over a decade ago. I nor they have any doubts or interest in Ouiji boards at this time.


Originally posted by rizla
Some friends of mine did it. First they asked, "Are you man?". It said "No." So they said, "Are you a woman?" It said, "No." So they said, "What are you then?" It said, "I'm a dinosaur." I'm serious.


Behold! A dinosaur! Hehe, thanks for sharing...but it actually does prove one point at least -> one cannot find truth through a Ouiji board. Either that or you can talk to dinosaurs.



posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 08:01 AM
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Originally posted by jimbo999
YAWN....wow, this is still going on huh?


If you're bored, why are you here? Masochist maybe?
I release thee from thy cell of torment! Go forth into the world and experience sunshine!


Originally posted by jimbo999
So - since when did a christian consider the 'paranormal' anything other than the 'work of Satan' exactly?


Many Christians do have that knee-jerk reaction. My paranormal experience came before and during being a Christian myself. To those who just see it as evil and stay away from it...there's no harm in that. True that not all raw meat gives you samonella, by not eating raw meat you're guarenteed not to get it (for example).


Originally posted by jimbo999
Has there been some kind of metaphorical shift in christian theology of recent times?


I don't know if I'm qualified to speak for the masses. I haven't seen a shift and have been called 'fundamentalist' in the past because of my back-to-basics approach towards the Word.


Originally posted by jimbo999
Or has the OP suddenly come into a new understanding of biblical texts?


Everyone who has a relationship with God and reads Biblical text should be coming to new understandings everyday, or so is the hope. To not do so is to stand still. Still waters grow gnarly bacteria and is unfit to drink. Not saying I sit still so it's something I need to keep in mind myself.


Originally posted by jimbo999
One that is apparently unavailable to other christians worldwide?


God is accessible through any console, be it here or there, the bottom of the sea or on the moon. That connection is high-speed and wireless.


Originally posted by jimbo999
Inquiring minds want to know!


Oy, been a few decades since I'd seen that commercial in the 80's. I bet it's on Youtube, I'll have to check it out sometime.


Originally posted by jimbo999
And if not - just WHAT does this whole shebang have to do with 'Paranormal Studies' exactly??? Pray tell?

J.


Paranormal is anything beyond the physical and proveable by a sharing of the evidence...so then...what is faith? It certainly isn't physical or proveable by sharing evidence. Evidence can be gotten, but it's individual. We talk about all kinds of paranormal topics such as - aliens, God, ghosts, angels, demons, zombies, etc. Take your pick. If you think any of these are 'normal', certainly I'd like to see the physical and proveable evidence by sharing.

[edit on 6-3-2008 by saint4God]



posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 08:08 AM
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why has your religion killed more humans than WW1 and WW2 put together?

why do you still press yourself out in the open as a "christian" like that makes you different than any of other human being. AND if it doesn't then why did you make this thread with that title?



posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 08:14 AM
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reply to post by saint4God
 


Saint,
I must be losing my mind,
I have no memory of posting this statement:

Originally posted by sizzle
Rock Music. Those who are hooked on rock music are usually very defensive and unteachable. This rejection of truth is because rock music is a "religion" to the devotee, and to suggest that someone should give up his religion is a serious threat. Rock music requires as definite a commitment as does Christianity.


It would be hypocritical of me to post this. There are many types of rock music that I enjoy myself. Could you point me to this exact post?

One more edit: Also want to add that I disagree somewhat to this statement. Personally, I don't think that I, myself am addicted to rock music. And there are many others that I know personally, that I would not consider, addicted.
[edit on 6-3-2008 by sizzle]

[edit on 6-3-2008 by sizzle]



posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 08:21 AM
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Many acts were done in the name of Christianity, but not necessarily by true Christians. "Wolves come in sheeps clothing." "Many shall come in My Name, but are not of Me." _Jesus Christ



posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 08:24 AM
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reply to post by dAlen
 



I will say this, I do believe that much of what Christians attribute to demons, as in regard to their lives, comes from the fact that our hearts are corrupt and the true evil, if you will, is embedded deep within our flesh. Somewhat like Paul stated, that in his flesh was no good thing.



posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 09:06 AM
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Originally posted by jdposey
Hey there, Saint4God! Enjoying the thread.


Thanks! Me too. I have to admit I'm digging the ride not because of the number of responses, but because the responses are deep and quite thought provoking. Some threads I've been on felt like I was running track, repeating the same loops over and over.


Originally posted by jdposey
I have a question for you. I know there are some preachers, who in the past, had deliverance ministries, delivering people from demons, and often you would see these ministers, delivering Christians from ceratin demons. I want to know what your opinion on this is?


Whoa! This is one of those "going for the gullet" questions, eh? Somebody is watching how I answer this I'm sure. Here is why I think it is wise to tread lightly:

"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." - Mark 3:29

So IF I say instantaneous removals of demons and instant healings are a bunch of garbage and if in fact the Holy Spirit is at work...guess what I'm guilty of.

However, we do know that there are many who have been labeled miracle workers who were not...even Biblically:

"Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, and all the people, both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed, "This man is the divine power known as the Great Power." - Acts 8:9-10

So when Peter Popoff comes along, what are we to think?



Despite Randi’s high profile, hoax-busting was unprofitable until 1986. That’s when he took on TV faith healer Peter Popoff.

Suspecting that Popoff’s hearing aid was really a radio receiver, Randi got a private investigator to bring a scanner and tape recorder to the faith-healing sessions. The scanner picked up Popoff’s wife, Elizabeth, calling, “Petey, can you hear me?” and reading information audience members had written on “prayer cards” or mentioned to ushers.

On the Tonight Show, Randi showed a clip of Popoff appearing to get an inspiration about a “Harold” in the audience. “Cataracts,” Elizabeth relayed. “God is going to burn those cataracts right off your eyes!” Popoff thundered. “Popoff says God tells him these things,” Randi quipped. “Maybe he does. But I didn’t realize God used a frequency of 39.17 megahertz and had a voice exactly like Elizabeth Popoff’s.”

Within months, Popoff was bankrupt.


www.apologeticsindex.org...

I'll then answer your question with a pair of questions. As a believer, you believe that we can come to Jesus Christ and receive all gifts we need including eternal life. Why then would you go to anyone else to be healed?

If YOU have been unable to walk since birth despite all tries or medicines then a man comes along and says "By the power of Jesus Christ, get up and walk" and you get up and walk, then have you any choice but to believe?



Originally posted by jdposey
If I may interject my thinking here, for you to weigh upon, I don't believe it is possible for a genuine believer, one who is filled with the Holy Spirit, to be dual possessed, by a demon and by the Holy Spirit, at the same time. It's my opinion, that these Christians, whom these ministers are supposedly delivering from evil spirits, were just assuming they were Christians, even though seated in a congregation. Otherwise, like I said, I just can't comprehend Christians being dual possessed, although, I do believe a Christian can be heavily oppressed.


The difficulty in being mere mortal (which I am actually grateful for rather than wishing the other often times) is that we cannot see into someone else's heart. Imagine what it would be like then to hear the thoughts, motives, desires, noise, and so forth coming from everyone all at once all the time. Who wants that job? God does, and is able to make a right assessment accordingly.

Guard your spirit by knowing what is good and in accordance with God, but be very careful in placing a seal of judgement on someone else:

"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." - Matthew 7:2

It takes a very arrogant person to believe they're qualified to do so.

Great question and topic, always open to hearing the thoughts of others as well.




 
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