Disproof of God

This is an impossible argument. Time is our own invention. No god created it, and it's probably not constant throughout the universe. If god (no, I don't believe in god, but just for argument's sake) has any perception of his own time, he'd be one bored MF! Imagine having eternity to do everything. What a hell would that be! No wonder he's a procrastinator!

Eternity
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
God
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Time it took to make the universe
|.|

So, I suppose he finished what we believe to be his greatest accomplishment, then took an eternal nap?

[Edited on 2-18-2004 by Satyr]

Originally posted by SimpleTruth
Liblam, someday you will find out that you are totally wrong. I hope that it will be in a positive way. Your fixation with time is so not relevant, it isn't even funny. Where did you come up with your concepts? Time is simply a property (and interlinked with) space. So it's a fourth dimension of our existence. Knowledgeable scientists refer to it as space-time. Our concept of time is limited to how it applies to our everyday lives. To us, it is linear and so infinity to us seems like unending time. But infinity is actually outside of time, or another way to put it, not bound by time and it's properties. This is where God resides. An easy way to understand His advantage and perspective by not being limited by time is the following:

We are all on the street, watching a parade go by. We witness each section come by one at a time in a linear fashion. The floats and such come around the corner in a sequence. This represents time for us. God is in the helicopter far above and sees it all at once!! He is outside of the street where buildings block the beginning and end of the parade from our immediate view. These are limitations that dictate how our world and universe work. God is not restricted by this and sees beginning from end before and after we see anything!
Also, time is a relative property or variable of our reality. Just like gravity, or energy, or magnetics, time differs depending on where you are. It is affected by gravity, acceleration and mass. Scientists have proven this by putting 2 synchronized atomic clocks in different planes, going opposite directions and speeds. Upon landing and comparing clocks, they were offset by a fraction. So liblam, by saying time doesn't exist, you would have to say that gravity, mass and acceleration don't exist either. Therefore, WE don't really exist, which is far more ludicrous or "out there" than simply realizing that God is real. Besides, even IF time didn't exist, that doesn't even do anything in proving or disproving God, cuz He's outside of time anyway. That's like saying, because my computer froze, that's proof that no one built or made the software or hardware. That's insane! I don't get ur point.
Liblam, going by your logic, if we lived inside of a computer, you would be saying that no one created us, which of course would be dead wrong.

Do you really think YOU exist? Do you think you have flesh/blood and this physical world is anywhere close to what you perceive it to be? Would you be naive enough to proclaim such a thing? I have news for you... you are merely a thought, and nothing else. Everything else you see is an illusion. Time just being part of that illusion. All there is is lessons, and all that you see is there for you to learn.

Also, if time doesn't exist, then CREATION is not possible, and therefore there is no CREATOR GOD. Tell me how creation is possible if there is no time. Like I already said, creation does not exist BEFORE it is created (if time is real). But if time is not real, there is no before/after... and therefore all that exists simply EXISTS without having been CREATED!

About your parade on a street analogy... my question would be, who put the street there? Has it always been there? Or did GOD (the helicopter guy) put it there? In that case, how long ago did he do this?

And when you answer, how long did GOD wait before creating our parade? Forever? Well then he'd still be waiting. Unless he's not bound by time, in which case time doesn't exist, and therefore there is NO CREATION but simply BEING in the infinite "now".

Originally posted by StationsCreation
'lilblam' I take it you�ve read Julian Barbour's book "End of Time", and are quite passionate about it. If you haven�t read it you should, its right up your ally. I�ve read this also, a while ago.

Never read it, but I'll look in to it

My theory is based off Superstring, Higher Dimensional Physics. These hold much credibility in the world of physics. These theories pose possibly the most promising advancements into �The Unification Theory� aka the Theory of Everything. I just enjoy adding the spiritual element to it.

Don�t get agro or anything but your theory tends to use a lot of circular reasoning.

I don't get agro.. period

That kind of argument doesn�t quite work when your dealing with Higher Dimensions. Logic and reason as we know it don�t sit well with this stuff.

Sure they do.. OUR logic and reason may not, but tons of human logic is not logical. One such "logic" is that time exists, which seems perfectly logical to most humans... but perception can be VERY deceiving as you already know.

It�s like me saying an arrow shot from a bow can never reach its target! Why? Because the arrow has to make it half the distance before it can make the target, then it has to travel half of the distance left. Now with the remaining distance it again has to reach halfway. Because you can divide the remaining distance by half until infinity the arrow will never reach its target. Now we all know that when you shoot an arrow it does indeed reach its target. This paradox is known as Zeno�s Paradox, and the interesting thing is that it is solved by adding time to the problem. It�s probably worth checking out. Here�s one of many websites that discuss it.
www.bbc.co.uk...

Of course, I know these paradoxes. The problem with them is that people think time happens in some kind of chunks, sort of like a really really high frame rate in our reality... but it just isn't so. What I mean is, people think there is a moment called "present", which does not exist anyway. Things jump from the future into the past, and it's the immediate past that we call the "present". There's no actual tick mark representing the present like on your mp3 player. You can infinitely zoom in and you'd never find the present... So arrow's speed is distance/time. But what if time = 0? Then the arrow would be AT its destination at the exact instant that it is fired (Speed would be Infinity). BTW (and take the following with a grain of salt) I suspect this is how UFO's work.. to travel faster than light (and this is what Bob Lazar said as well). They bend space-time... and literally bring the destination to themselves... sort of like taking a piece of paper (space-time) and folding it in half, and having the 2 points you drew there meet each other (maybe not entirely meet, but come closer). Don't get me wrong, space-time exist from our perception, but that's about where reality ends. Humans don't have very long to figure it out either, as our perception is on its way to be "altered"... but stay tuned for that

With the higher dimensional concepts you could relate it to the characters from the classic book �Flatland�. 2 dimensional creatures have no comprehension of our 3rd dimension, it defies their logic and reason. They cannot experience it or measure it with instrumentation or even understand it like we do. The same would apply for us with Higher Dimensions. A good book to explain all this is a book called Hyperspace by Dr Michio Kaku. I certainly can�t do these theories justice in a few lines. But maybe broadening your horizons in theoretical physics will help you appreciate other people�s theories.

Yup I've thought about this much.. the dimention thing. So therefore, if we exist in 3rd dimention, we freely move about in space, although the SPEED of our travel and our entire reality is STILL bound by time. If we move to 4th dimentional existance, then we freely move about in TIME (being 4th dimention) and therefore we would no longer be BOUND by it. This means that space/time would almost seize to exist... because we could travel instantly to any point in space... since we have an easy handle on TIME. By shortening time, we can increase our speed of travel infinitely... so no longer do we travel "forward" in time... but we're absolutely ONE with time (as we're now ONE with 3d space).

And remember criticism can only help you improve your theories, it also toughens you up mentally, so don�t take it as an attack.

No worries, I assess things and do not jump to conclusions. I only take attacks as attacks

Not everything I wrote will sound very eloquent, I had to do it quick.

Oh it's eloquent enough. Thanks for your thoughts, and thanks for the book titles I'll look around for them.

Originally posted by Satyr
This is an impossible argument. Time is our own invention. No god created it, and it's probably not constant throughout the universe. If god (no, I don't believe in god, but just for argument's sake) has any perception of his own time, he'd be one bored MF! Imagine having eternity to do everything. What a hell would that be! No wonder he's a procrastinator!

Eternity
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
God
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Time it took to make the universe
|.|

So, I suppose he finished what we believe to be his greatest accomplishment, then took an eternal nap?

[Edited on 2-18-2004 by Satyr]

Yup, it's not constant at all, as Einstein hinted.. it's relative. But once again, that's OUR perception. If you wanna talk about reality, time does not exist in any way, shape, or form... PERIOD. At all! Not even a little bit! Relative still means it exists in some form, and that form is linear.

Think about it from an AI's perspective. Would an AI have any sense of time (other than keeping track of time as we program it...) but do you think it would actually care if we told it to do something and it took it 5 minutes to accomplish, or 5 billion years (assume it can last that long)? I doubt it would care, or NOTICE the difference... it would simply spit out the calculation for how much of "our time" had passed since the beginning of its work till the end (so 5 billion years or so).. but from the perspective of the AI it would be instant! Our perspective is very skewed...

Think about your memories... you can jump back and forth in "time" in your memories, right? Some memories you have you don't even know WHEN they happened... you can guess but you can be off by YEARS! Memories are absolutely timeless then, are they not? If we never kept track of time, all our memories would simply BE... without having a date assigned.

This is what reality is like.. like our memories. We have them ALL simultaneously, but we can choose to review individual ones by focusing on the specific one... and our life is that type of focusing. The duration of our lives are like a duration of a memory... it's just that we THINK we can't control the flow or jump to any other memory which can be kazillions of our "years" away from our current memory.

Time isn't so much our creation as it has been promoted by the system of control that governs this world. Religions are also NOT our creation, because if one has a clue, one has no NEED to believe in silly things as God or any other dogmas. But when one is absolutely clueless, someone WITH a clue can come in and control them with bullsh1t! It's so unbelievably easy...

[Edited on 20-2-2004 by lilblam]

liblam, you are defining "infinite time" and "eternity" with our concept of time that, according to you, doesn't really exist. Thats kinda absurd, no offence.

Time that we percieve is, as many have stated already, our way to describe the universe, or to put it differently, our way to understand CAUSE AND EFFECT. Time was created with the first cause, Big Bang, thats when the universe started, thats when the time started. Time is our way to determine the chain of events. God however, exists outside this chain of events, therefore the concept of time, as we percieve it, does not apply to God. As simple as that.
Your mind is bound by causality of this universe and is not capable of explaining or understanding something that is outside of it.
So, to conclude, your logic is flawed.

Originally posted by paperclip
liblam, you are defining "infinite time" and "eternity" with our concept of time that, according to you, doesn't really exist. Thats kinda absurd, no offence.

When the Wright Brothers said they could fly a plane, all the other scientists said "that's absurd". Nothing is absurd unless your mind is closed... no offense. Things are either true or false, but they aren't "absurd"

Time that we percieve is, as many have stated already, our way to describe the universe, or to put it differently, our way to understand CAUSE AND EFFECT. Time was created with the first cause, Big Bang, thats when the universe started, thats when the time started. Time is our way to determine the chain of events. God however, exists outside this chain of events, therefore the concept of time, as we percieve it, does not apply to God. As simple as that.
Your mind is bound by causality of this universe and is not capable of explaining or understanding something that is outside of it.
So, to conclude, your logic is flawed.

Big Bang is great and all... but you do understand that something had to be here before the Big Bang, as something cannot come out of NOTHING, right? Also, cause and effect are a linear concept based on the illusion of time. When you get out of that closed, 3rd density frame of mind, you understand that reality is far more chaotic. In the way that one thing can be the cause for another, and it can also be the effect of the other thing. Simply because there is no time, that means that the cause/effect that you observe is based on your perception of time. But I'm not asking you to alter your perception (not yet anyway). I'm simply asking you to UNDERSTAND that there is no time using simple LOGIC.

I'll answer the part about God later, gotta run to work.

How about...

If God exists, would he allow his word to be used as a tool of death and oppression?...

Originally posted by lilblam
Big Bang is great and all... but you do understand that something had to be here before the Big Bang, as something cannot come out of NOTHING, right?

wrong. you can, quantum mechanics allows for it. i posted about that same thing here.

as for cause and effect being linear, well, 3D sorta isnt linear, its 3D. 4D isnt either.
if one system works through proof and another works through no proof, im liable to take the former.

Each day I turn on the news, I see at least 10 innocents dying of unnatural cause, i.e. murders, that is proof enough to me that God doesn't exist.

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
How about...

If God exists, would he allow his word to be used as a tool of death and oppression?...

Death and oppression are absolutely required and natural. Imagine if no one ever died? Also oppression, being a service to self concept to achieve power over others balances out the service to others half of the universe, and is required.

Besides, free will means God cannot interfere at all (if he could, we'd know about it by now), NOR can he send you to Heaven/Hell without your permission as that also would violate your free will to go and do as you please.

Besides, if there is no time, then there is no creation and therefore no God.

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
How about...

If God exists, would he allow his word to be used as a tool of death and oppression?...

Death and oppression are absolutely required and natural. Imagine if no one ever died? Also oppression, being a service to self concept to achieve power over others balances out the service to others half of the universe, and is required.

Besides, free will means God cannot interfere at all (if he could, we'd know about it by now), NOR can he send you to Heaven/Hell without your permission as that also would violate your free will to go and do as you please.

Besides, if there is no time, then there is no creation and therefore no God.

Welcome back Liblam

Originally posted by Amorymeltzer

Originally posted by lilblam
Big Bang is great and all... but you do understand that something had to be here before the Big Bang, as something cannot come out of NOTHING, right?

wrong. you can, quantum mechanics allows for it. i posted about that same thing here.

You seem to misunderstand the statement... "you can NEVER have something out of nothing." Nothing allows for it... because if there ever was NOTHING, there would ALWAYS be nothing. Nothing has no light, no waves of any kind, no particles, no space, no time, because it is 0.. zilch.. nada... doesn't exist. Nothing means lack of any existance of anything. If that was the case, SOMETHING could never all of a sudden appear. Where would NOTHING get the resources to create absolutely ANYTHING? Not even a single subatomic particle could ever come out of nothing.. Maybe you misunderstood...

I didn't mean something can never come out of almost nothing... as there's no almost in Nothing

as for cause and effect being linear, well, 3D sorta isnt linear, its 3D. 4D isnt either.
if one system works through proof and another works through no proof, im liable to take the former.

I mean your conscious mind is linear (as you may know, your subconscience thinks non-linearly... all at once. It's the conscious part of your mind that thinks in a cause-effect, step-by-step sort of way.). Do you agree that cause and effect only exist if TIME exists? Cause comes BEFORE effect, but if there is no time, there is no such thing as before!

Have you heard the theory that a butterfly can flap its wings once somewhere in China and that one little flap of its tiny wings can create a huge hurricane on the other side of the globe? This is the non-linear nature of our world... every little thing has potentially huge consequences, and they are all interrelated.

Now imagine that on another dimention that same butterfly flapped its wings also, caused the hurricane, and part of the hurricane seeped into this dimention and caused our butterfly to flap its wings (cuz of the wind gust or something), which in turn created our hurricane that seeped into the OTHER dimentionand made the OTHER butterfly flap its wings in the first place.

So our butterfly flapped its wings because of the hurricane that was created by the same butterfly in another dimention, and caused our hurricane that was actually the cause for the OTHER butterfly to flap its wings in the first place. Now imagine there are absolutely INFINITE dimentions and they all infinitely interact each other all at the same time.

You can focus on one dimention at a time and translate a multi-density phenomena into 3rd density (human) level of perception... creating a linear effect.

Here's something else to think about... imagine that our human race has not been on this planet originally, but was developed on another planet and then moved to THIS planet hundreds of thousands of our years ago.

Now, think about this: What from your perspective seems like hundreds of thousands of years ago (when we were moved to this planet) hasn't even happened yet, and is going to happen in your future. So actually we're just now developing on this other planet, and in the near future we will be moved to this planet. From our perspective this has already occured, but in reality all is simultaneous. We're here, we're there, we're everywhere. But we see only that which we choose to focus on.

And of course think about the human body, and the cells in it. If the cells were sentient, they may think they're all separate creatures working together. Do they know that they're all one? Not from their perception... but in reality they are all one entity....

This helps understand the notion that we're all one infinite conciousness... but from our little linear, out-of-context awareness we think we're somehow separate entities. We are, but we're also one. On one level we're different and varied and infinite in number (considering other planets and dimentions and realities) but all part of the same thing. Like different cells with different functions, all being equally important and required... but all part of the same thing.



[Edited on 22-2-2004 by lilblam]

@lilblam:

butterfly effect is linear and has to do with chaos theory. Note: only a theory.

Butterfly in other dimension? eh? figment of your imagination..... the rest of your post....ermmmm nice philosophical science fiction. I still don't see how can you PROVE anything with that.

Nobody knows what existed before Big Bang, this universe came into existence after the bang, and with it TIME, our way to perceive laws of universe. The "eternity" is defined with our concept of time, therefore it cannot be used to logicaly dispute anything that is supposed to exist before Big Bang or outside of our universe.

There was something before Big Bang, only not in this universe, and you cannot define, understand, or explain it because you are bound by laws of this universe. I assume that after we die, we will be able to understand it.

Originally posted by paperclip
@lilblam:

butterfly effect is linear and has to do with chaos theory. Note: only a theory.

Sorry I didn't clarify. I didn't mean the official chaos theory.. by chaotic I just meant non-linear.

Butterfly in other dimension? eh? figment of your imagination..... the rest of your post....ermmmm nice philosophical science fiction. I still don't see how can you PROVE anything with that.

Figment of my imagination? Not likely. Think about this carefully and you'll understand. It would take me too long to explain fully, but if you think long and hard on the concept of infinite dimentions and about time, objectively I should add, you'll get to the answer. Not because it sounds good or anything, but simply the only possible logical outcome, period.

Nobody knows what existed before Big Bang, this universe came into existence after the bang, and with it TIME, our way to perceive laws of universe. The "eternity" is defined with our concept of time, therefore it cannot be used to logicaly dispute anything that is supposed to exist before Big Bang or outside of our universe.

There was something before Big Bang, only not in this universe, and you cannot define, understand, or explain it because you are bound by laws of this universe. I assume that after we die, we will be able to understand it.

When you say proof, do you mean undisputable evidence, be it logical or physical, to ascertain a certain notion? Well there is no such thing! If proof was final, there wouldn't even be a concept of "disproving". If you can ever disprove something, that automatically means that proof is not necessarily final, and may only be temporary. In fact, it may only be proof for one person... and not proof from the perspective of another.

But I simply ask that you think about this stuff, as we all have our preconceptions and beliefs. They constantly interfere with objective analysis of ANYTHING... which impedes the process of learning and seeing something as it IS, not as what we'd like it to be or what we've been told it is. And I don't care how many "really smart" scientist-types disagree with me, that says absolutely NOTHING for the reality and truth of anything. Why let someone else do the thinking for you, when you're just as capable as anyone else to figure all this out and understand it?

If you answer questions with something like "Oh well God is above this or that.. he's all powerful... and he can do all... blah blah blah" you'll NEVER find the truth. This is just an excuse to avoid thinking about this, and is indeed a defense mechanism in your mind that explains things you're insecure or unsure about. Well, DROP IT!

Let's see if you agree with me on the following concept, before we move further in our discussion. If time does not exist, nothing is ever created, everything simply IS. Creation implise that it wasn't there before it was created, but "before" is a concept of time. I'm not telling you to assume time doesn't exist, but hypothetically only for now.

Also, if time doesn't exist, then all things that are possible already ARE a reality. The lack of existance of time is akin to infinity of time... and given infinity, all possibilities are true. Because if something is possible, it must already be, since there's no creation....

Think about this really carefully, and just hypothetically PRETEND that time doesn't exist, so don't argue that it does exist for now please, just tell me if the assumption that it does NOT exist is true, does this make all of the above also true? If not, please tell me specifically why not. Also, let's not argue, let's just have an open discussion

Originally posted by paperclip
@lilblam:

butterfly effect is linear and has to do with chaos theory. Note: only a theory.

Butterfly in other dimension? eh? figment of your imagination..... the rest of your post....ermmmm nice philosophical science fiction. I still don't see how can you PROVE anything with that.

Nobody knows what existed before Big Bang, this universe came into existence after the bang, and with it TIME, our way to perceive laws of universe. The "eternity" is defined with our concept of time, therefore it cannot be used to logicaly dispute anything that is supposed to exist before Big Bang or outside of our universe.

There was something before Big Bang, only not in this universe, and you cannot define, understand, or explain it because you are bound by laws of this universe. I assume that after we die, we will be able to understand it.

everything you said is correct that is why I do not entirely rely on physical sources like you do. I want to know the truth and others they want to know what they already believe.

Originally posted by THENEO

Originally posted by paperclip
@lilblam:

butterfly effect is linear and has to do with chaos theory. Note: only a theory.

Butterfly in other dimension? eh? figment of your imagination..... the rest of your post....ermmmm nice philosophical science fiction. I still don't see how can you PROVE anything with that.

Nobody knows what existed before Big Bang, this universe came into existence after the bang, and with it TIME, our way to perceive laws of universe. The "eternity" is defined with our concept of time, therefore it cannot be used to logicaly dispute anything that is supposed to exist before Big Bang or outside of our universe.

There was something before Big Bang, only not in this universe, and you cannot define, understand, or explain it because you are bound by laws of this universe. I assume that after we die, we will be able to understand it.

everything you said is correct that is why I do not entirely rely on physical sources like you do. I want to know the truth and others they want to know what they already believe.

I dunno if EVERYTHING is correct... that's a bit rash!

Also, many people have mental blocks that scream "This is beyond human understanding, so don't even go there" which is absolutely FALSE!

Our minds CAN know and understand absolutely ANYTHING and EVERYTHING with enough patience and determination. If you think otherwise, you'd better have a damn good reason to assume such a thing. The only reason you may think that there is some concept in reality that your mind cannot fathom is because that is what you have been told to think. If you cannot understand something, it doesn't mean anything. Patience, timing, and correct approach would be my advice.

[Edited on 22-2-2004 by lilblam]

I'm gonna drop a few quick remarks now, since it is 1am here where i am, and i gotta work tomorow , but i will post more tomorow afternoon.
so.....

But I simply ask that you think about this stuff, as we all have our preconceptions and beliefs. They constantly interfere with objective analysis of ANYTHING... which impedes the process of learning and seeing something as it IS, not as what we'd like it to be or what we've been told it is

You mean like Cassiopeans interfere with your perception of reality by telling you that we are 3rd density? Or like my belief in God interferes with my perception? Nobody on this planet thinks only for themselves without any influence, we all BELIEVE in something and go from there.

If you answer questions with something like "Oh well God is above this or that.. he's all powerful... and he can do all... blah blah blah" you'll NEVER find the truth.

How do you KNOW thats not the truth??? Again, that is only your belief.
Beliefs are subjective and they cannot be turned into objective truth by using logic.

Let's see if you agree with me on the following concept, before we move further in our discussion. If time does not exist, nothing is ever created, everything simply IS. Creation implise that it wasn't there before it was created, but "before" is a concept of time. I'm not telling you to assume time doesn't exist, but hypothetically only for now.

Well, let us define time first.
Universe does not need time to exist, WE need it to understand the universe. Time as we know it is a product of our conciousness, our inteligence, our awareness of cause and effect. To say that time doesnt exist is in a way true, but that doesnt alter the universe, cause and effect still happen, stars will burn out and fade away (cause and effect, laws of universe), etc etc.
To say that everything IS, just there, if we ignore time, is simply a philosophical perspective on reality, it is NOT reality itself. Reality is that things in this universe will keep on following the path of cause and effect regardless of our ability to understand or not understand WHY it started in the first place.

I will elaborate more on this tomorow.

True, but it's not wise to assume something to be true based on what authorities on a particular subject matter claim, be they scientists or religious leaders. It is also unwise to do the same for books.

Keeping that in mind, it can't hurt to take everything under consideration until it is possible to ascertain the truth or falsity of any data.

Now, you agreed with me that time doesn't necessarily exist for the universe at large, it is simply the way we observe and construct reality in our minds...

However, cause and effect don't automatically imply time. If I throw a ball in the air, it'll fall back down. The fall of the ball is the effect, and my throw is the cause. Cause happened BEFORE effect from my perception.

But from a universal standpoint, did one occur before the other? For example, could you not rewind time (given a time machine of some sort) and just keep looking at everything backwards? In this way, the cause happened AFTER the effect. How could this be possible?

Well, if you read my post here,
www.abovetopsecret.com...

It seems that time cannot exist in such a fashion. In fact, all things must indeed exist simultaneously. Don't worry, this does not limit variety, as anything that can ever possibly exist, does. Infinity of things/events etc exist simultaneously in infinity dimentions. It is possible to focus on any one of them, in any order, just like you could with a DVD.

The recording of the DVD exists in the infinite NOW, as there's no time until you actually open the DVD and pick out a scene from the movie you'd want to see. So time seems to be an illusion, a simple side-effect that transpired when you focus on some particular event. Otherwise, just like on an inactive DVD, all things exist simultaneously. Except, DVD is limited, but reality has no limits.

So all things that can ever happen and any possible events in any order etc that could ever possibly happen, already did, are, and will all at once. Makes sense?

People in the DVD movie may disagree, but they don't know that you (the observer) can stop, rewind, fast forward, or skip any parts... including pulling out the DVD and having the entire 4 hours of recording in one instance... by holding it in your hand.

This all of course is derived from the concept that time doesn't exist, that you can read in further detail in the post I linked to above.

[Edited on 23-2-2004 by lilblam]

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
How about...

If God exists, would he allow his word to be used as a tool of death and oppression?...

Death and oppression are absolutely required and natural. Imagine if no one ever died? Also oppression, being a service to self concept to achieve power over others balances out the service to others half of the universe, and is required.

Besides, free will means God cannot interfere at all (if he could, we'd know about it by now), NOR can he send you to Heaven/Hell without your permission as that also would violate your free will to go and do as you please.

Besides, if there is no time, then there is no creation and therefore no God.

Nice little contradiction and evasion there.

I specifically asked. If god exists, would he allow his word to be used as a tool for death and oppression? It has nothing to do with balances or keeping the population in check.

Take the bible for instance. The bible is supposed to be gods word. How could humans corrupt gods word? Why would god allow it? If he exists and wants man to know his word, he sure doesn't do a whole lot about false prophets now does he? Given the history, you would think he prefers psychotic humans doing his bidding.

It has nothing to do with free will.

Besides, free will doesn't fit into the whole god equotion anyways. If god has a set plan and knows the outcome already, then free will is false since our fate has already been determined.

The catholic and christian god is a contradiction through and through. He supposedly loves all of his creations, but won't hesitate to send you to a lake of fire where his greatest enemy lives so you can pay for your sins, no matter how trivial.

He also hates gay people. And pride. So he really isn't an all loving being now is he?

He was actually rather violent and blood hungry in the old testament. But us humans decided that was just a little too graphic and showed gods "badside" so we wrote the New Testament.

None of it is believable...

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
How about...

If God exists, would he allow his word to be used as a tool of death and oppression?...

Death and oppression are absolutely required and natural. Imagine if no one ever died? Also oppression, being a service to self concept to achieve power over others balances out the service to others half of the universe, and is required.

Besides, free will means God cannot interfere at all (if he could, we'd know about it by now), NOR can he send you to Heaven/Hell without your permission as that also would violate your free will to go and do as you please.

Besides, if there is no time, then there is no creation and therefore no God.

Nice little contradiction and evasion there.

I specifically asked. If god exists, would he allow his word to be used as a tool for death and oppression? It has nothing to do with balances or keeping the population in check.

Take the bible for instance. The bible is supposed to be gods word. How could humans corrupt gods word? Why would god allow it? If he exists and wants man to know his word, he sure doesn't do a whole lot about false prophets now does he? Given the history, you would think he prefers psychotic humans doing his bidding.

It has nothing to do with free will.

Besides, free will doesn't fit into the whole god equotion anyways. If god has a set plan and knows the outcome already, then free will is false since our fate has already been determined.

The catholic and christian god is a contradiction through and through. He supposedly loves all of his creations, but won't hesitate to send you to a lake of fire where his greatest enemy lives so you can pay for your sins, no matter how trivial.

He also hates gay people. And pride. So he really isn't an all loving being now is he?

He was actually rather violent and blood hungry in the old testament. But us humans decided that was just a little too graphic and showed gods "badside" so we wrote the New Testament.

None of it is believable...