Disproof of God

some buddies and i were talkin about this in comp tech the other day.

so, if god is all powerful, can he create a hotdog so long even he cudnt eat it? cud he create a drink so potent even he cudnt avoid gettin drunk?
well, the arises because if he does it, then he cant do something, and if he cant do it, well, thats somethign he cant do. either way hes not all powerful.
we solved the first by saying that the lim of the remaining hotdog approaches zero as n approaches infinity, and, being god, he cud reach infinity. the second, however, we had someproblems with. our only solution was that god probably wants to get drunk, teh earth is such a pain.

we then discussed whether you could have the same god exist in multiple/parallel universes, or if by definition of God, (s)he cudnt.

can he create a hotdog so long even he cudnt eat it? cud he create a drink so potent even he cudnt avoid gettin drunk

Thats a paradox.....but I still believe in God.

Old discussion. Basically, thoguh, you're measuring an omnipotent being by non-omnipotent standards. If God exists, he can make both a hotdog that is too large to eat, and still be able to eat it. An omnipotent being would be immune to contradiction by its very definition.

Arguments for disproving the existence of God or a god are and have been widely circulated. Ironically, they are far from disproving so.

ATS, and this forum in particular, is choked in them....



regards
seekerof

[Edited on 17-2-2004 by Seekerof]

Im bit fed up aswell.

" No problem can be solver from the same Consciousness that created it " Albert Einstein.

Deep

I think the question would be better put; Would God make a hotdog so long that he couldn't eat it?

The answer would be no! It's silly

I like Esoterica's answer

Also the hotdog would have to be infinite so we wouldn't be able to comprehend the answer.
Thats my two cents worth.

Originally posted by Amorymeltzer
some buddies and i were talkin about this in comp tech the other day.

so, if god is all powerful, can he create a hotdog so long even he cudnt eat it? cud he create a drink so potent even he cudnt avoid gettin drunk?
well, the arises because if he does it, then he cant do something, and if he cant do it, well, thats somethign he cant do. either way hes not all powerful.

That's easy because he wanted to create it.

what you are saying is a way of thinking because of what we see.

for all you know it could be an illusion............our reality does not have to be the reality of the universe. Just because your human logistics cant explain it doesnt mean it is wrong. God defies logic............cause he is so powerful he doesnt have to be within its bounds.

I believe in God.

-omega1

Everything we percieve is manifested through out minds, not the other way around.

Deep

Ok... but would God still be God if Time didn't exist? For example, if there is no such thing as time, how would there be a creation? Doesn't creation imply it didn't exist BEFORE it was created?

So if one can disprove the existance of time, where would that leave the "Creator God"? Would he no longer be able to be the creator? If not, then what purpose would he have?

So, the point is not to disprove God, but to disprove things in nature that would automatically rule out God if disproved. For example, if Good and Evil are really relative (which they are, as nothing is innately good or evil until someone else judges it to be either or), how can God judge anyone... wouldn't that make God subjective and having his own opinion? But opinion is strictly a facet of a very limited in knowledge and awareness being, namely human.

God could not have an opinion, he would know all that there is to know.

What about the word perfection? Isn't that another subjective term? I can eat something and say "mmm this is perfect" and someone else will puke from the sight of the food...

But the best one I think thus far is the "time" thing. If we can eliminate time, God MUST go with it, there is no other choice. Creation ONLY exists if TIME exists!

www.abovetopsecret.com...

That post seems to logically do away with time, can anyone present any possible logical argument (in that thread, not this one) for why my "proof that time does NOT exist" is wrong? If not, did I just disprove God as well?

Originally posted by lilblam
But the best one I think thus far is the "time" thing. If we can eliminate time, God MUST go with it, there is no other choice. Creation ONLY exists if TIME exists!

Time is a temporal dimension, God created it along with the 3 spatial dimensions we experience. To make this universe work God possibly had made higher dimensions beyond what we humans can experience. Including more temporal dimensions. Further more God exist outside of His creation meaning he is independent of our concept of time. Eternity is the absence of time, this is where God exist. So your time argument is moot.

The best one that I have heard is if god is inside the universe then he is bound by the laws of it and if he is outside the universe then he can not control everything within it from the outside (or something like that). Either way god is not all powerful.

Originally posted by StationsCreation

Originally posted by lilblam
But the best one I think thus far is the "time" thing. If we can eliminate time, God MUST go with it, there is no other choice. Creation ONLY exists if TIME exists!

Time is a temporal dimension, God created it along with the 3 spatial dimensions we experience. To make this universe work God possibly had made higher dimensions beyond what we humans can experience. Including more temporal dimensions. Further more God exist outside of His creation meaning he is independent of our concept of time. Eternity is the absence of time, this is where God exist. So your time argument is moot.

Not only is my argument not moot, your argument doesn't even exist. How could God exist in eternity, if eternity is ONLY a concept of time? Without time there is no past or future, there is only the present. All is in the present!

Also, how could God create something when there is no past or future? All that is, simply already is.. without requiring anyone to "make" it.

But even if we look at your "theory", how could God hang around for eternity and then create something? You can never hang around for eternity, because eternity never ends. So unless God was also created, he could not spend eternity doing something else and THEN create our universe... since eternity never ends which means he'd STILL be waiting before creating anything (as you can NEVER surpass eternity).

And no you can't say "well God can surpass it" because I'm not saying we can't surpass it due to our limited capabilities. I'm saying the whole definition of eternity means NEVER ENDS. If he surpassed it, it is no longer eternity! Therefore, time cannot exist, as we could not have eternity in the past behind us.. at ANY time.

Therefore, there cannot be creation... since creation is only a concept of TIME. Without time, all things exist in the infinite NOW... they all exist and no one creates anything. If you think you create something, it's only because of your illusion of time... because if someone else were to travel from 5 minutes BEFORE you created it to 10 minutes after you did it in a time machine, he would be aware of your creation 5 minutes before you created it. This would make it seem like you created the thing 5 minutes before you actually did it, which is NOT your perception.. but perception is of no consequence to reality, now is it?

Therefore, our perception of time is false, and if you adjust it, we'll see that ALL things that are possible indeed DO exist, and all exist at the same "time" in the infinite NOW, without past or future... as that's an obvious illusion!

Therefore your creation only exists as a creation based on YOUR perception. If you remove time, all always is.

[Edited on 18-2-2004 by lilblam]

In order to make the biggest bratwurst possible, God would have to make the biggest possible pigs eating really big garbage. In order to make this sausage, he would have to create a new shell universe (or maybe those "Cassiopeans in the sixth density" could help). In such a world our math and physics just wouldn't work. Your hypotesis is dead

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Originally posted by Hamilton
In order to make the biggest bratwurst possible, God would have to make the biggest possible pigs eating really big garbage.

I would argue with you but I have no idea what you just said. Hell, I don't even know what bratwurst is made from!

Originally posted by Hamilton
In order to make the biggest bratwurst possible, God would have to make the biggest possible pigs eating really big garbage. In order to make this sausage, he would have to create a new shell universe (or maybe those "Cassiopeans in the sixth density" could help). In such a world our math and physics just wouldn't work. Your hypotesis is dead

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Could God just skip to the bratwurst? It's like, what came first the chicken or the egg... well God wouldn't care now would he? I'd say chicken, since an egg needs a chicken to sit on it to hatch. Unless God wants to sit on the very first egg he created! I can seem him laying an egg.. he strikes me as someone who'd have nothing better to do anyway!

But anyways, could he make a bratwurst that he cannot eat? Well, he could eat anything that is finite in size, as infinity simply can never be reached as it never ever ends. If it ended, it would not be infinity. Therefore, as long as the bratwurst is finite in size, he could eat it.

Could he create an infinitely big bratwurst? No! He could keep making it BIGGER and BIGGER exponentially forever, and it would NEVER reach infinity. So therefore, since he cannot make an infinitely big bratwurst, he can always eat the one he does make.

But before you know it he'll be so fed up with creating bigger and bigger bratwursts... he'll give up and go torture some unbelievers a bit... that always seems to relax him

But since he doesn't exist, he'd have to get some believers to do that for him!

[Edited on 18-2-2004 by lilblam]

Originally posted by lilblam
It's like, what came first the chicken or the egg... well God wouldn't care now would he? I'd say chicken, since an egg needs a chicken to sit on it to hatch. Unless God wants to sit on the very first egg he created! I can seem him laying an egg.. he strikes me as someone who'd have nothing better to do anyway!

Side note: I heard that a while ago some scientists found an answer to this question. It all has to do with how you define egg and the line where you differenciate between an egg and an animal. Something like at some point they could be both one and the other at the same time. Just an interesting thought.

Originally posted by Jonna

Originally posted by lilblam
It's like, what came first the chicken or the egg... well God wouldn't care now would he? I'd say chicken, since an egg needs a chicken to sit on it to hatch. Unless God wants to sit on the very first egg he created! I can seem him laying an egg.. he strikes me as someone who'd have nothing better to do anyway!

Side note: I heard that a while ago some scientists found an answer to this question. It all has to do with how you define egg and the line where you differenciate between an egg and an animal. Something like at some point they could be both one and the other at the same time. Just an interesting thought.

Sounds more like a transvestite chicken.. but hey weirder things have happened!

Liblam, someday you will find out that you are totally wrong. I hope that it will be in a positive way. Your fixation with time is so not relevant, it isn't even funny. Where did you come up with your concepts? Time is simply a property (and interlinked with) space. So it's a fourth dimension of our existence. Knowledgeable scientists refer to it as space-time. Our concept of time is limited to how it applies to our everyday lives. To us, it is linear and so infinity to us seems like unending time. But infinity is actually outside of time, or another way to put it, not bound by time and it's properties. This is where God resides. An easy way to understand His advantage and perspective by not being limited by time is the following:

We are all on the street, watching a parade go by. We witness each section come by one at a time in a linear fashion. The floats and such come around the corner in a sequence. This represents time for us. God is in the helicopter far above and sees it all at once!! He is outside of the street where buildings block the beginning and end of the parade from our immediate view. These are limitations that dictate how our world and universe work. God is not restricted by this and sees beginning from end before and after we see anything!
Also, time is a relative property or variable of our reality. Just like gravity, or energy, or magnetics, time differs depending on where you are. It is affected by gravity, acceleration and mass. Scientists have proven this by putting 2 synchronized atomic clocks in different planes, going opposite directions and speeds. Upon landing and comparing clocks, they were offset by a fraction. So liblam, by saying time doesn't exist, you would have to say that gravity, mass and acceleration don't exist either. Therefore, WE don't really exist, which is far more ludicrous or "out there" than simply realizing that God is real. Besides, even IF time didn't exist, that doesn't even do anything in proving or disproving God, cuz He's outside of time anyway. That's like saying, because my computer froze, that's proof that no one built or made the software or hardware. That's insane! I don't get ur point.
Liblam, going by your logic, if we lived inside of a computer, you would be saying that no one created us, which of course would be dead wrong.

'lilblam' I take it you�ve read Julian Barbour's book "End of Time", and are quite passionate about it. If you haven�t read it you should, its right up your ally. I�ve read this also, a while ago.

My theory is based off Superstring, Higher Dimensional Physics. These hold much credibility in the world of physics. These theories pose possibly the most promising advancements into �The Unification Theory� aka the Theory of Everything. I just enjoy adding the spiritual element to it.

Don�t get agro or anything but your theory tends to use a lot of circular reasoning. That kind of argument doesn�t quite work when your dealing with Higher Dimensions. Logic and reason as we know it don�t sit well with this stuff. It�s like me saying an arrow shot from a bow can never reach its target! Why? Because the arrow has to make it half the distance before it can make the target, then it has to travel half of the distance left. Now with the remaining distance it again has to reach halfway. Because you can divide the remaining distance by half until infinity the arrow will never reach its target. Now we all know that when you shoot an arrow it does indeed reach its target. This paradox is known as Zeno�s Paradox, and the interesting thing is that it is solved by adding time to the problem. It�s probably worth checking out. Here�s one of many websites that discuss it.
www.bbc.co.uk...

With the higher dimensional concepts you could relate it to the characters from the classic book �Flatland�. 2 dimensional creatures have no comprehension of our 3rd dimension, it defies their logic and reason. They cannot experience it or measure it with instrumentation or even understand it like we do. The same would apply for us with Higher Dimensions. A good book to explain all this is a book called Hyperspace by Dr Michio Kaku. I certainly can�t do these theories justice in a few lines. But maybe broadening your horizons in theoretical physics will help you appreciate other people�s theories.

And remember criticism can only help you improve your theories, it also toughens you up mentally, so don�t take it as an attack.

Not everything I wrote will sound very eloquent, I had to do it quick.