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Disproof of God

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posted on Feb, 23 2004 @ 11:47 AM
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TO THE ONE WHO STARTED THIS THREAD:

You see that God is omnipotent, while your just impotent.




posted on Feb, 23 2004 @ 12:21 PM
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Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
How about...

If God exists, would he allow his word to be used as a tool of death and oppression?...


Death and oppression are absolutely required and natural. Imagine if no one ever died? Also oppression, being a service to self concept to achieve power over others balances out the service to others half of the universe, and is required.

Besides, free will means God cannot interfere at all (if he could, we'd know about it by now), NOR can he send you to Heaven/Hell without your permission as that also would violate your free will to go and do as you please.

Besides, if there is no time, then there is no creation and therefore no God.


Nice little contradiction and evasion there.

I specifically asked. If god exists, would he allow his word to be used as a tool for death and oppression? It has nothing to do with balances or keeping the population in check.

Take the bible for instance. The bible is supposed to be gods word. How could humans corrupt gods word? Why would god allow it? If he exists and wants man to know his word, he sure doesn't do a whole lot about false prophets now does he? Given the history, you would think he prefers psychotic humans doing his bidding.

It has nothing to do with free will.

Besides, free will doesn't fit into the whole god equotion anyways. If god has a set plan and knows the outcome already, then free will is false since our fate has already been determined.

The catholic and christian god is a contradiction through and through. He supposedly loves all of his creations, but won't hesitate to send you to a lake of fire where his greatest enemy lives so you can pay for your sins, no matter how trivial.

He also hates gay people. And pride. So he really isn't an all loving being now is he?

He was actually rather violent and blood hungry in the old testament. But us humans decided that was just a little too graphic and showed gods "badside" so we wrote the New Testament.

None of it is believable...


No evasion... any "God" knows what I said, and therefore the answer is YES he would allow oppression, corruption, destruction, hunger, plagues, cataclysms, etc. He cannot NOT allow, as free will has EVERYTHING to do with it. If he didn't allow, he violates free will. Therefore, nothing we do matters AT ALL as God uses us like chess pieces without us ever having a hope of escape.. since he's God. Then everything that exists has absolutely NO meaning except to entertain God. Although, the Bible does say he's self-sufficient and needs no one to entertain him, since he's perfect in himself.

So as you can see, free will has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with God. Having Free Will means God does not exist. Because even if he somehow did exist, he cannot do ANYTHING to anyone without violating free will, so he's useless!

Also, because time does not exist, God automatically cannot exist, since without time there's no Creation. Sorry God, you struck out yet again!



posted on Feb, 23 2004 @ 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
How about...

If God exists, would he allow his word to be used as a tool of death and oppression?...


Death and oppression are absolutely required and natural. Imagine if no one ever died? Also oppression, being a service to self concept to achieve power over others balances out the service to others half of the universe, and is required.

Besides, free will means God cannot interfere at all (if he could, we'd know about it by now), NOR can he send you to Heaven/Hell without your permission as that also would violate your free will to go and do as you please.

Besides, if there is no time, then there is no creation and therefore no God.


Nice little contradiction and evasion there.

I specifically asked. If god exists, would he allow his word to be used as a tool for death and oppression? It has nothing to do with balances or keeping the population in check.

Take the bible for instance. The bible is supposed to be gods word. How could humans corrupt gods word? Why would god allow it? If he exists and wants man to know his word, he sure doesn't do a whole lot about false prophets now does he? Given the history, you would think he prefers psychotic humans doing his bidding.

It has nothing to do with free will.

Besides, free will doesn't fit into the whole god equotion anyways. If god has a set plan and knows the outcome already, then free will is false since our fate has already been determined.

The catholic and christian god is a contradiction through and through. He supposedly loves all of his creations, but won't hesitate to send you to a lake of fire where his greatest enemy lives so you can pay for your sins, no matter how trivial.

He also hates gay people. And pride. So he really isn't an all loving being now is he?

He was actually rather violent and blood hungry in the old testament. But us humans decided that was just a little too graphic and showed gods "badside" so we wrote the New Testament.

None of it is believable...


No evasion... any "God" knows what I said, and therefore the answer is YES he would allow oppression, corruption, destruction, hunger, plagues, cataclysms, etc. He cannot NOT allow, as free will has EVERYTHING to do with it. If he didn't allow, he violates free will. Therefore, nothing we do matters AT ALL as God uses us like chess pieces without us ever having a hope of escape.. since he's God. Then everything that exists has absolutely NO meaning except to entertain God. Although, the Bible does say he's self-sufficient and needs no one to entertain him, since he's perfect in himself.

So as you can see, free will has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with God. Having Free Will means God does not exist. Because even if he somehow did exist, he cannot do ANYTHING to anyone without violating free will, so he's useless!

Also, because time does not exist, God automatically cannot exist, since without time there's no Creation. Sorry God, you struck out yet again!




That is a bet pessimistic... but the fact is that God is free will. That is why there is HORRBILE things on this earth. He gives us the choice of Him, goodness, or Satan, evil. There really are only two choices. Satan gives the illusion of free will, but is really just dominant over any souls that he lures in. Honestly, if you created the earth, wouldnt you get pissed if people didnt obey you? I would. just an opinion..



posted on Feb, 23 2004 @ 12:33 PM
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But Good and Evil do not exist.. as they are relative and subjective! That solves THAT problem


And if he wants to be Hitler, God has my "blessings". Otherwise he can just piss off and maybe one day he'll learn that he himself doesn't exist. But I think God is too ignorant to learn that much...

[Edited on 23-2-2004 by lilblam]



posted on Feb, 23 2004 @ 12:39 PM
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Originally posted by lilblam
But Good and Evil do not exist.. as they are relative and subjective! That solves THAT problem


And if he wants to be Hitler, God has my "blessings". Otherwise he can just piss off and maybe one day he'll learn that he himself doesn't exist. But I think God is too ignorant to learn that much...

[Edited on 23-2-2004 by lilblam]



Um...okak. Its your world man. I for one believe that good and evil do exist, mostly in the context that goodness is defined as God, and evil that in which opposes anything that has to do with God. I have been to a few 'deliverance' sessions before, pretty convincing that something of higher power is at work. call it bullsh*t, but i was there.



posted on Feb, 23 2004 @ 12:42 PM
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Never said there's something at higher power NOT at work, it's just 4th density service to self lizard aliens, not God.

And like you just said, Good and Evil are relative. GOD defines to you what is GOOD, and all that oppose him must be evil. Haha.

Hitler defined to the Germans what is good, and Jews were in opposition so they MUST be evil. Like I said, it is relative and subjective and does not exist until someone else defines it to you.

The fun part is that you think it's GOD, just because he said so, a book says so, and a bunch of religious authorities say so. But is it really? Could it be aliens who just want to control you and the other sheep? (And do a GREAT job of it btw)

[Edited on 23-2-2004 by lilblam]



posted on Feb, 23 2004 @ 03:08 PM
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Originally posted by lilblam
Never said there's something at higher power NOT at work, it's just 4th density service to self lizard aliens, not God.

And like you just said, Good and Evil are relative. GOD defines to you what is GOOD, and all that oppose him must be evil. Haha.

Hitler defined to the Germans what is good, and Jews were in opposition so they MUST be evil. Like I said, it is relative and subjective and does not exist until someone else defines it to you.

The fun part is that you think it's GOD, just because he said so, a book says so, and a bunch of religious authorities say so. But is it really? Could it be aliens who just want to control you and the other sheep? (And do a GREAT job of it btw)

[Edited on 23-2-2004 by lilblam]


I suggest that you read the post i made a few days ago titled Marcus Tutor... It basically implies that aliens tell us that they have been manipulating us with religion all along... oh okay. This is what you obviously think. But why stop there? why not go futher? Are these aliens here to help? bullsh#t . Say for a second that God is real and these aliens are evil. they are in the perfect position to deny God's existence. we are in the perfect position to believe them, like SHEEP, as you put it. So the genius in them telling us that they invented God is in the fact that they are not denying His ( supposed faked) existence, but rather disproving His power.



posted on Feb, 23 2004 @ 03:16 PM
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Originally posted by lilblam
But Good and Evil do not exist.. as they are relative and subjective! That solves THAT problem



Why is this simple fact so difficult for people to grasp? Is it because it threatens their belief systems. Without change there is no evolution, so what's the point? Follow mindless tradition? No me! I'll kick my gods to the curb the second I find a more logical one.



posted on Feb, 23 2004 @ 03:47 PM
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so, if god is all powerful, can he create a hotdog so long even he cudnt eat it? cud he create a drink so potent even he cudnt avoid gettin drunk?


Of course God can create a hotdog infinitely long. The "he couldn't eat it" part is a mistate. God does not need to eat.

You are making the same mistake as thousands of people before you, even philosophers did:

"Can God create something so immense that he can't handle ?"

Well, God is infinite. Assuming that he can make an infinite object named A, God and infinite object A can't be directly compared!!!

And the above is valid because:



  1. infinite + infinite = not defined
  2. infinite - infinite = not defined
  3. infinite * infinite = not defined
  4. infinite / infinite = not defined
  5. infinite < infinite = not defined
  6. infinite > infinite = not defined


Since mathematical operations and comparisons are not allowed, the argument that one infinity ("God") can manage another infinity ("object A") is invalid.



posted on Feb, 23 2004 @ 04:11 PM
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Originally posted by JohnMay

Originally posted by lilblam
Never said there's something at higher power NOT at work, it's just 4th density service to self lizard aliens, not God.

And like you just said, Good and Evil are relative. GOD defines to you what is GOOD, and all that oppose him must be evil. Haha.

Hitler defined to the Germans what is good, and Jews were in opposition so they MUST be evil. Like I said, it is relative and subjective and does not exist until someone else defines it to you.

The fun part is that you think it's GOD, just because he said so, a book says so, and a bunch of religious authorities say so. But is it really? Could it be aliens who just want to control you and the other sheep? (And do a GREAT job of it btw)

[Edited on 23-2-2004 by lilblam]


I suggest that you read the post i made a few days ago titled Marcus Tutor... It basically implies that aliens tell us that they have been manipulating us with religion all along... oh okay. This is what you obviously think. But why stop there? why not go futher? Are these aliens here to help? bullsh#t . Say for a second that God is real and these aliens are evil. they are in the perfect position to deny God's existence. we are in the perfect position to believe them, like SHEEP, as you put it. So the genius in them telling us that they invented God is in the fact that they are not denying His ( supposed faked) existence, but rather disproving His power.


Alright, why would we believe ANYONE? We can figure this out using our minds, not relying on false assumptions. Besides, what makes you think the aliens are telling us ANYTHING yet? Their motives are pretty hidden from general knowledge if you ask me... it's the Church that is trying to convince you of the legitimacy of its dogmas, not aliens.

If we learn that aliens are behind all religions, it won't be because ALIENS said so, but because we figure it out ourselves. Once again, we have an all-powerful mind, so why not learn to use it?



posted on Feb, 23 2004 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by masterp



so, if god is all powerful, can he create a hotdog so long even he cudnt eat it? cud he create a drink so potent even he cudnt avoid gettin drunk?


Of course God can create a hotdog infinitely long. The "he couldn't eat it" part is a mistate. God does not need to eat.

You are making the same mistake as thousands of people before you, even philosophers did:

"Can God create something so immense that he can't handle ?"

Well, God is infinite. Assuming that he can make an infinite object named A, God and infinite object A can't be directly compared!!!

And the above is valid because:



  1. infinite + infinite = not defined
  2. infinite - infinite = not defined
  3. infinite * infinite = not defined
  4. infinite / infinite = not defined
  5. infinite < infinite = not defined
  6. infinite > infinite = not defined


Since mathematical operations and comparisons are not allowed, the argument that one infinity ("God") can manage another infinity ("object A") is invalid.


Well infinity is not defined for your computer or calculator because it's not a number, it's a representation of a theoretical value that has no end. But infinity+infinity = infinity. Infinity - infinity = infinity. Etc... no matter what you do to infinity, it'll still be infinity.

When you divide by 0, you actually get infinity. It's just that once again, infinity isn't a number, and isn't usable in logical direct calculations other than in a theoretical form, so it's not included in computational devices. However, as you divide by smaller and smaller numbers, the LIMIT is infinity. This means the answer is approaching infinity, but obviously you can never reach infinity as it NEVER ends. Therefore if you were to divide by 0, infinity would be the answer.

Oh and how does this relate to God? Well God cannot create an object of the size INFINITY, since no matter how big something is, it can always be bigger.. since infinity has no limit or end. Therefore, any size hot dog God creates, he can eat. Can he create an infinitely large hot dog? No.

Therefore, he is not limited by how much he could eat, but rather by how much he can create. Not limited as in restricted by a barrier, but rather unable to reach infinity as it is unreachable. If he could reach infinity, it would then become finite and not infinite. Infinity can never end, otherwise it's NOT infinity.

But since our reality and universe is absolutely infinite, we can safely understand that it was not created by anything, and therefore there is no God.

[Edited on 23-2-2004 by lilblam]



posted on Feb, 23 2004 @ 07:00 PM
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lilblam: Are you a big David Icke fan? Just curious.



posted on Feb, 23 2004 @ 10:43 PM
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Originally posted by lilblam
Having Free Will means God does not exist. Because even if he somehow did exist, he cannot do ANYTHING to anyone without violating free will, so he's useless!


Even with Free Will...
He can talk to us.
He can guide us.
He can set rules and institute consequences for violating those rules.
He can enforce said consequences.

It is, and always will be, our choice to obey or disobey.
To believe or not believe.



posted on Feb, 24 2004 @ 12:17 AM
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What many people do not think about too much is that there as aspects of the God experience that are interdependent with faith.

You open the doors, and your God concept also opens from that faith. Your concept is an active and creative process. Even if there were no functionally accessible "God," and even if all your prayers, hopes and aspirations exist only in your own mind, the human possibilities are far greater than any words about it have shone. So far, it appears that religions use their own meme about God for anything but the assembled ideals we mostly have about this "Universal Father."

I don't know about you or anyone else, but why would I want to "disprove," a personal power source, even if it were solely something in the human mind? This concept may have something to do with physics, chemistry and science. It would only be shutting off knowledge to skuttle some of the best poetry and literature ever created just because a bunch of elite criminals hijacked the idea and made the outer edges of it repulsive.

Now think of some aspects of "God," as something you personally create, then you are meeting this omnipresent creator on a not so uneven "partnership." He is no longer a dispicable landlord, nor anything used to exploit his ideal concept to ruin people.

I see no religious faith in the inquisition, only jealous vindictive and terrible people asserting the barest margins of power they aquired by exploitation of religious beliefs. I see on the other side of the world anything but a dedicated Islamic, when people are punished under the British created agent de provocaturs called Mulahs engaging "Sharia."

God is good, but human beings pretend they are good when doing the opposite!

Keep God to yourself then, consider this to be a great personal secret so terrible are the distortions.



posted on Feb, 24 2004 @ 01:40 AM
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Originally posted by Esoterica
Old discussion. Basically, thoguh, you're measuring an omnipotent being by non-omnipotent standards. If God exists, he can make both a hotdog that is too large to eat, and still be able to eat it. An omnipotent being would be immune to contradiction by its very definition.


Very well said! Probably one of the best, shortest and yet complete answers I've heard to questions like this. Good job Esoterica!

Amorymeltzer, the problem with the question you're asking, also what makes it fun to think about as well, is that you are attempting to measure, compare, or in some way either mathematically or logically calculate "Infinities". Even the word "Infinities" is not exactly a true word in itself if you think about it. "Infinity" is a conceptual idea used to represent something that is beyond the full understanding of anything finite, such as our human mind or logic systems.

When questioning Infinte Gods, Hotdogs, Geometric Lines, Spirals, etc. you will always find the same problem. The problem is Infinity has All Values Possible which makes Gods=Hotdogs=Geometric Lines=Spirals=etc. and all values are Infinite.



posted on Feb, 24 2004 @ 06:56 AM
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hmmmm

what exactly are we discussing here? It seems a few different questions are all mixed together.
First, time. Lilblam, I still don't see how you can disprove God by disprooving time. To use your comparison with DVD, somebody HAD to record that DVD no matter how we perceive it, all at once or as a sequence of events, somebody had to record it first. Also, though a nice comparison it is still flawed a bit and cannot be compared with universe.
The universe we live in is not ifinite, it will end one day. Stars will burn out and fade away, turn to balck holes, planets will cease to exist. It all follows a sequence of events based on laws of universe from the begining. TIME is our way to perceive this, and since it is a concept of mind (that we agree on) its reality is irrelevant for the existence of universe. If you say that time doesnt exist, that doesnt mean cause and effect dont exist. They still do. They always did. But without time we cannot know when the next one will occur, for example ummm day and night. We need time to know when the planet will face sun to know when to go to work. Simple example but I think you see my point. Day and night will still be there even if we stop to observe when they will occur.

Another thing, we are talking about God here. God. Creator of universe. He can do whatever he wants whenever he wants even if it doesnt make sense to us. I mean, he gave us free will, then he interferes in certain situations. So what? He is God, he can do that without having to justify his actions to us.

We are put in this life, this DVD, for a reason, to learn more about it, whats beyond this life will reveal itself when we cross on the other side, thats another lesson then. There is enough to learn about this existence, before we move on to the next level.




[Edited on 24-2-2004 by paperclip]



posted on Feb, 24 2004 @ 08:02 AM
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Originally posted by paperclip
The universe we live in is not ifinite, it will end one day. Stars will burn out and fade away, turn to balck holes, planets will cease to exist. It all follows a sequence of events based on laws of universe from the begining. [Edited on 24-2-2004 by paperclip]


Exactly what do you mean by Universe as you're using it here? Also, what kind of end and begining are you talking about? Are you meaning the Universe as we know of it coming to an end or the entire Universe, Matter, Energy, Time, Black Holes, Space, and everything else possible coming to a complete and total end, as in the end of everything?
Because I'm not sure if I'd agree with such an End of Everything Theory.

Even if all Galaxies and Planets and stuff all get sucked into black holes and/or burn out. It's not as if it's Gone. It's still there, but has changed dramatically.

As far as a Begining, a lot of people who are creationists or believe in the traditional "Universal Creation by God" theory usually think of God creating The Begining and the Universe itself, and before that there was Nothing. I personally find this difficult to understand since obviously there wasn't 'Nothing' but most certainly 'Something' possibly 'Everything' but most likely different than we know of today. Unless God is 'Nothing' that is, but as long as God is Infinite, then any begining of Everything from Nothing and an Ending of Everything to Nothing doesn't even make any sense.




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