Is there any military or police members here who can answer this question?

reply to post by yankeerose

I also want to point out my opinion that many of the bad leaders and goof ball cops belong to a certain secret "male only" society that protects and promotes it's members throughout law enforcement and the military. They are practically untouchable unless they screw up so bad, the other brethren have no other choice but to cut their losses and let them be fired. This statement is only based on my career in law enforcement and what I witnessed of this certain groups actions.

This is true, but here again we see the effect of "secret society" diminishing the rights of a free society, for whatever reason. The "untouchables" who everyone else goes along with laughing nervously.

reply to post by jackinthebox


Not everyone. In fact, I would say most find it a conflict of interest. Many people think is very suspicious, and wish that it was banned from the military and law enforcement. The ones who think it is ok, are the brethren and those who have never had to deal with them. Run up against them a few times, and you would know why too.

reply to post by SlightlyAbovePar


Let me guess, you are a shepherd, right?
What should break your heart is the fact that this crap is and will continue to happen, because "Johnny salute the flag, our leaders deserve our respect" types are busy poo-pooing away documented proof of said indiscretions as anomolies, or a couple of rotten apples, when they should be standing tallest and yelling foul the loudest.
I am honestly torn between who disgusts me more, these subhuman pricks, or their apologists (that's you by the way).

GETTING back on topic, no one asked for a critique of the "sheeple" mentality it takes to put up with it, or how paranoid I am because I question military, but more so, police motives in a given situation.
So i will clarify the question and it's context:

1. Would you as a police officer or military service person, willingly arrest, assualt, or kill unarmed civillians if you were ordered to quell a mass protest on a country wide scale, if your sitting government labeled it an illegal uprising and declared martial law, even if you knew it was a justified protest?
2. What do you consider undo force when arresting someone.(for example,why do cops regularily, and this is caught on tape hundreds if not thousands of times, find it necessary to club an unarmed protester over the head multiple times for the infraction of not moving fast enough for the arresting thug...er...officer) ?
Is it because we are sheep and you are the shepherds (I can hardly type it with out laughing my head off!)

Before you go off on some tangent about how I'm a cop hating hippy protester, you would not be farther from the truth. I advocate violent revolution, not standing on the street shouting meaningless slogans waiting for the "pigs" to come and crack my skull, because our piddly concerns about poverty and injustice are effecting the local business associations bottomline, or heaven forbid some big corporations feelings are hurt.

Originally posted by BlueRaja


This isn't a scenario that you're ever gonna have to worry about as a civilian or as a service member. THERE IS NO PLAN TO PUT CIVILIANS INTO FORCED LABOR CAMPS, or to shoot civilians, or to shoot fellow soldiers who won't shoot civilians. You need to stop reading crap websites, and go meet some real life soldiers and cops, and you'll see the folly of such propositions.

Weeell! I feel better!, Don't we all feel better now?
I know a few ex servicemen. They work as doormen at nightclubs or as security in general. They relish in telling stories about idiot civies (thats not the word they use to describe non military people, I can't use the word here as it violates post rules) that they put in the hospital for such things as looking at them funny, trying to run away from the beating they were receiving, bumping into their girlfriend in a crowded bar, and it goes on and on. They in most cases either get away with it outright or given a slap on the wrist. Why? Well a lot of them are friends with cops, and I don't believe in coincidence.
Every conversation I have had with a cop usually starts with:
"Hello, Vancouver police, how are you this evening, can I see some i.d. please?"
and ends with:
"What are you some kind of lawer or something, smart guy?" (this usually follows my explanation of my rights as a citizen to this bastion of the community). I used to wonder why I had to explain my rights to someone who should already know them, until I learned that it took longer for me to complete my commercial cookery training than it does for the average police officer to complete their training (3 years for me, 18 months for them if they actually attend a law course of some type, otherwise it is only 6 months). And i'm supposed to trust anything they have to say?

reply to post by morthn1waytoskinacat


Yes, as far as I am concerned, you guessed correct.

Your anger and hatred tells me there is a whole lot more going on here than the actual topic.

See, the difference between sheep and shepards is sheep have the freedom to make wild speculations, absurd claims, put forth fictitious, theoretical "what-ifs" based in intellectual dishonesty masking a lack of understanding, enjoy emotional, knee-jerk reactions based in anger, claim shepards have said things they haven't and generally talk when they don't understand the subject matter in the first place.

Shepard's do not.

As far as whether you are a sheep or shepard; you've answered that one for yourself.

Originally posted by jackinthebox

Perhaps you would not knowingly participate. Of that I have no doubt. There are very few who would. The problem is that you may be loading people onto a train for what has been presented to you as a very legitimate reason.

The same goes for the invasion of Iraq. No one who has served believes that they are or were part of an imperial and criminal enterprise. But the fact remains that the US invaded a sovereign nation without cause. Having a hunch is not enough reason to go to war and kill a million people. If the truth was known at the time, I have no doubt that many servicemembers would have refused their orders.

You seem to believe that soldiers and cops are idiots, that robotically follow orders, and if only someone like yourself could enlighten them, they'd wake up.

Secondly, we haven't killed 1 million people(or anywhere close to that figure), but that's an entirely different discussion.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
... Secondly, we haven't killed 1 million people(or anywhere close to that figure), but that's an entirely different discussion.

I believe it was the British equivalent of the AMA that stated they documented over 650,000 dead due directly to the war in Iraq.

I'd think 650,000 is closer to a million than not.

Originally posted by jackinthebox

Lack of training is no excuse. They wore the uniform, they were trained. Besides that, someone issued the order to fire. The guns didn't go off accidentally.

I'm not trying to excuse them. The F'd up. They were poorly trained to deal with this type of situation, and reacted incorrectly.

It would be of there was a riot in progress. Say for example if a group of unarmed "terrorists" were storming a food-storage facility because they were starving. And don't try to argue that such a situation is not feasable. If this economy goes where I think it's going, you can bet there will be food riots.

And where are these food storage facilities that you think would be mobbed. This isn't Somalia, with warehouses of cornmeal stacked up.
Our economy is in no danger of having starving masses, so you can dispense with the alarmism. Additionally, you're not gonna use lethal force to protect food. We're only allowed to use lethal force in situations of self defense or to prevent the theft of weapons/sensitive technology, if all other means have been exhausted. Please don't lecture me here either, as I've pulled guard duty a few times in my Army career and know what I'm talking about.

Or what if a group of unarmed civilians overran a government building in protest. Say perhaps, the Capitol building. You can bet they would be fired upon, and any soldier who refused such an order would likely be executed if things were bad enough for civilians to riot in the Capitol.

If a mob of people presented a physical threat, then some force would be used(not necessarily lethal force- CS, etc...)
I somehow doubt that a "mob" of peaceful folks would take over anything, especially unarmed peaceful folks. I guarantee you, you wouldn't see soldiers being executed for not killing someone, so stop with the sensationalism. Show just one example in recent history of a US soldier being executed for anything, much less for not killing someone. Even soldiers on death row because of killing other soldiers are being killed off in droves.

The entire case for invading Iraq hinged on the word of an un-vetted source. His info was never corroborated, and he refused to even speak with the US directly.

Our leadership knew there was a strong possiblity that there were no WMD's, that they had no solid intelligence, so they deliberately "hyped" the weak info they had. I do not blame everyone who had anything to do with intelligence gathering. I blame the leadership.

Every intel agency in the world, democrats and republicans, etc.. believed the same thing. Was there some hype of tertiary aspects? Yes. Did this hype affect the overall case? No. There is no evidence that Bush knew that there was no WMD, and said there was anyway. In any event, the onus was on Saddam to prove he didn't have them, rather than on us to prove that he did.

Originally posted by morthn1waytoskinacat

1. Would you as a police officer or military service person, willingly arrest, assualt, or kill unarmed civillians if you were ordered to quell a mass protest on a country wide scale, if your sitting government labeled it an illegal uprising and declared martial law, even if you knew it was a justified protest?

As much as you despise the government, they still have procedures they have to follow, and can't just make edicts. How many protests have there been since the 60s, even unruly ones. How many times aside from Kent State can you name where protesters were shot, simply because the government didn't like them protesting?
It simply isn't the military/law enforcements SOP to shoot people to disperse them. Yet when non-lethal means are discussed, you same folks have hissy fits about them too.

2. What do you consider undo force when arresting someone.(for example,why do cops regularily, and this is caught on tape hundreds if not thousands of times, find it necessary to club an unarmed protester over the head multiple times for the infraction of not moving fast enough for the arresting thug...er...officer) ?
Is it because we are sheep and you are the shepherds

(I can hardly type it with out laughing my head off!)

Necessary force=situation dependant>threat to public/cop/perp of violence, injury or death>only the amount of force needed to ensure compliance. No more force than this should be used.

[edit on 14-2-2008 by BlueRaja]

[edit on 14-2-2008 by BlueRaja]

reply to post by BlueRaja


If you research the Kent State Massacre, you will see that there is evidence, via a recording made of the incident where it is plainly heard that orders were given to shoot.

As for your example of a Soldier being executed? Does the name Pat Tillman ring a bell to you?

My view on Marshal law. When I was down in New Orleans, I saw some things that are not mentioned alot.

1. Most Military Members who where on patrol where we where came to the local law enforcement to understand what they could and couldn't do. We had a lot of meeting and helped them be effective in patroling the areas destroyed and how to use descretion. Most of the law enforcement who was sent from all over the country, met and discussed options to help the locals out. It was well known that we would not carry out any unlawful orders. But at the same time we knew there would be people who would take advantage of the situation and try to profit.

We were not happy with seeing tracer fire at night. It was mideval. We never got into the hot zones until Blackwater and the US Military had pulled out. I don't like the Idea of hiring Blackwater, I feel that it was hiring mercenaries. They don't have Law enforcement training and are not subject to the law they are hired to enforce.

The Military Members that I met where most confused about patroling american streets, a lot of them just came from Iraq. The Military that I dealt with came to us alot and joint coordination was quite sucessful in preventing any violence and helped keep crime down a whole lot.

That was my second time enforcing laws under Marshall Law. the First time was 9/11/01. But that was different since most people came to help not escape from the situation.

2. Nowbody wants to follow a UNLAWFUL order!

I know that alot was screwy down there but what I did see was a lot of good came from all the people coming to help from all over the country.

If a disaster happens again where all the states send there law enforcement to help. You sould know that we don't want to gun you down or take your life or property away because of some politicians.

We want to help but we are also not dumb.

I have worked with over 750 different law agencies from around the globe, and even the Chinese and Korean and Russian, Greece, Canada, Asia, etc.
It has been pleasent to see that Law enforcement the cops are pretty much on the same page. Yes there are some bad cops... But 99.9% are on your side.

But we have a job to due.

Not everyone likes us until they need us.

To protect and serve.

That is what I took the oath for.

Retired NYPD, Proud to serve.

reply to post by LordBucket


About all I can say to address the concerns about our military and paramilitary enforcement agencies is this: there will be a major rift in these personnel SHOULD the scenario of aggression toward fellow citizens ever come about.

Our soldiers and LEOs are just like the rest of us (for the most part) And have no desire to hurt their neighbors.

I'm ex military----US Army of the 70's. My daughter is presently LEO in Kentucky. She's not a greenie either but has been at her trade for 8+ years. By the way, her hubby is Marine (now out of the service).

We pride ourselves on our love and CONCERN for this country.

To answer the question orininally posted: "Would we ever take up arms against our own?" Answer---NO WAY NO HOW!

Of course our family and friends have discussed this topic on a few ocassions---mainly because of where we see the trend in recent events heading.

That is NOT to say there won't be others that would be more than happy to do so. HOWEVER, most (and the majority) will not fire on their own.

I think this is where we should be focusing our questions.
When/IF this reactive split, schism amongst our troops and LEOs ever comes about.....how will the corrupt at the top-of-the-food-chain attempt to control us, ie: us recalcitrants refusing to be herded into detainment or worse?

Well, my opinion is this....we'll just have to wait and see how the cookie crumbles. Eh? We're not helpless nor stupid nor passive any longer. I really believe this in the heart of my heart.

None of of will go quietly into that bad night!

OK. Another layer of the proverbial onion here. We MUST discern the news media and its reporting wisely and thoroughly. Just because someone is getting their head busted doesn't make that cop bad. Soooo much in the news gets left out, expressly for disinfo and/or manipulation of the public at large. Be prepared to do your homework BEFORE coming to conclusions about the rightness or wrongness of law enforcement.

Did anyone here see the recent (last night recent) news report of the handicapped quadriplegic being seriously abused at the hands on LEOs?
That was some serious disregard done to someone that should have been shown at least a modicum of deferrence....at the very least!

Those LEOs need some serious smack-down, in my opinion. However, I'm still staying on top of the fall-out just for the sake of making sure I've got all the facts I can get! But I do think this is a valid reaction to what happened to this guy.

reply to post by Enthralled Fan


Pat Tillman wasn't executed.

Originally posted by morthn1waytoskinacat

Originally posted by BlueRaja


This isn't a scenario that you're ever gonna have to worry about as a civilian or as a service member. THERE IS NO PLAN TO PUT CIVILIANS INTO FORCED LABOR CAMPS, or to shoot civilians, or to shoot fellow soldiers who won't shoot civilians. You need to stop reading crap websites, and go meet some real life soldiers and cops, and you'll see the folly of such propositions.

Weeell! I feel better!, Don't we all feel better now?

I know a few ex servicemen. They work as doormen at nightclubs or as security in general. They relish in telling stories about idiot civies (thats not the word they use to describe non military people, I can't use the word here as it violates post rules) that they put in the hospital for such things as looking at them funny, trying to run away from the beating they were receiving, bumping into their girlfriend in a crowded bar, and it goes on and on. They in most cases either get away with it outright or given a slap on the wrist. Why? Well a lot of them are friends with cops, and I don't believe in coincidence.
Every conversation I have had with a cop usually starts with:
"Hello, Vancouver police, how are you this evening, can I see some i.d. please?"
and ends with:
"What are you some kind of lawer or something, smart guy?" (this usually follows my explanation of my rights as a citizen to this bastion of the community). I used to wonder why I had to explain my rights to someone who should already know them, until I learned that it took longer for me to complete my commercial cookery training than it does for the average police officer to complete their training (3 years for me, 18 months for them if they actually attend a law course of some type, otherwise it is only 6 months). And i'm supposed to trust anything they have to say?

These few bad apples do tarnish the rest of the LEOs and military. This is my honest opinion and belief. Yes, I know the "type" that make for bad headlines!

I have the real testimony of many LEOs and military and ex-mil. people (real humans with families and all the debt that goes with it) that hate the actions of the likes of those mentioned above.

What you see done by barroom brawlers is NOT the example as lived by the average LEO, military or ex-military Jane or Joe. The rest of us have real jobs in a humdrum world just trying to get by. We have careers not even closely associated to anything to do with law enforcement, or otherwise.

Hey, we have lots of valid reasons to be suspicious and watchful of our government. And I'm really, really sorry that so many folks are terrified of those that are meant to protect us all. I'm one of the folks needing protecting! I'm getting older now (55) and I thank God that there's someone on the other end of the phone or down the block that I can call on for help.

reply to post by BlueRaja



Well.....All I'm gonna say about the late Pat Tillman is this: I don't feel that he was executed...per se. However, I feel he was prime recepient of an individuals green-eyed jealousy.

Mr. Tillman had some fine ideals that he acted on---like loving his country enough that he eventually died serving it.

It's a terrible loss of a human being. I had really strong reservations for him when I learned he had joined the Army.

I don't mean to offend anyone here with my suspicions. This is just only how I sees it.

Originally posted by COOL HAND

Originally posted by niteboy82

Anyone the military police arrest will be turned over to New Orleans police for transportation and booking. Police will also be responsible for targeting key criminal activities.Source

That was the first one that came up when I searched, I assure you they are still here and it is still happening. They do indeed arrest people and then turn them over to the police, they patrol in their cars, and they are not the nicest bunch to run into when they are having a bad day.

Posse Comitatus...

They are still there under section 1076 of the John Warner Defense Appropriation Act for Fiscal Year 2007 (H.R. 5122.ENR).

It allows a President to:

...employ the armed forces, including the National Guard in Federal service, to... restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition in any State or possession of the United States..., where the President determines that,...domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities of the State or possession are incapable of maintaining public order; suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy...

Obviously the President feels that the local government can't handle it by themselves down there.

A big amen to that!

The looting and crime comitted by "some" against the weaker individuals of that broken community was a powerful testimony to why we need protective services in order to defend those that are being harmed and or killed.

New Orleans is still a nasty mess. Was down there just a few months ago.

oops, sorry moderators. I'll try to do better when answering posts. I don't know how I goofed, though.

[edit on 14-2-2008 by deenamarie53]

reply to post by morthn1waytoskinacat


These ex-military that are bouncers, that you've had issues with- do you ever wonder why they're ex-military? Just because someone has served doesn't necessarily mean that they were a good soldier, or a good representation of soldiers in general.

reply to post by sir_chancealot


Two sources- the one you cited, and John's Hopkins, have claimed numbers like that. Every other source puts the figure between 80,000-250,000. Now of those #s, how many died as a result of wounds sustained from weapons/explosions vs. disease/other causes? Of that figure how many died because of insurgents vs. US forces? Many more Iraqis have died as a result of insurgent/ethnic violence, than because of US forces, so there is absolutely no way that US Forces have "killed" 650k- 1 million +.

Originally posted by deenamarie53
reply to post by BlueRaja

 

Well.....All I'm gonna say about the late Pat Tillman is this: I don't feel that he was executed...per se. However, I feel he was prime recepient of an individuals green-eyed jealousy.

Mr. Tillman had some fine ideals that he acted on---like loving his country enough that he eventually died serving it.

It's a terrible loss of a human being. I had really strong reservations for him when I learned he had joined the Army.

I don't mean to offend anyone here with my suspicions. This is just only how I sees it.

Pat Tillman wasn't just in any unit. He served with the 75th Ranger Regiment. This is the best, most elite light infantry unit in the US military.
The level of unit cohesion and comraderie in these units are well above par with most units.

This is the Ranger Creed, and the mindset of it's troops-

Recognizing that I volunteered as a Ranger, fully knowing the hazards of my chosen profession, I will always endeavor to uphold the prestige, honor, and high esprit-de-corps of the Rangers.

Acknowledging the fact that a Ranger is a more elite soldier who arrives at the cutting edge of battle by land, sea, or air, I accept the fact that as a Ranger my country expects me to move further, faster and fight harder than any other soldier.

Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong, and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my share of the task, whatever it may be, one hundred percent and then some.

Gallantly will I show the world that I am a specially selected and well-trained soldier. My courtesy to superior officers, neatness of dress, and care of equipment shall set the example for others to follow.

Energetically will I meet the enemies of my country. I shall defeat them on the field of battle for I am better trained and will fight with all my might. Surrender is not a Ranger word. I will never leave a fallen comrade to fall into the hands of the enemy and under no circumstances will I ever embarrass my country.

Readily will I display the intestinal fortitude required to fight on to the Ranger objective and complete the mission, though I be the lone survivor.

reply to post by BlueRaja


Blue Raja...that's a beautiful creed!

Ya know we all need to be reminded from time to time what the mindset of these warriors are....deep to the depths of their very core. It's the WHY for what they do.

I was sick at heart when I learned of Tillmans death. As a matter of fact it still bothers me...why? Just because he walked the talk of that beautiful creed we just read above.

I want to believe the best about those of ours that are serving so far from home.

Thanks for the reminder Blue Raja.