Is there any military or police members here who can answer this question?

reply to post by jackinthebox

The same goes for the invasion of Iraq. No one who has served believes that they are or were part of an imperial and criminal enterprise.

2LT Ehren Watada refused the order to deploy to Iraq based on just those reasons.

Also see West Point Graduates Against the War

I have no doubt that a certain percentage of the military would fire on unarmed physically violent protesters in the US given certain conditions/scenarios. The repercussions, however, for those involved would make it the worst mistake of their lives and would represent a very very low point in perception of the military by the public, and conversely (and importantly) perception of their leaders among the enlisted.

Originally posted by jackinthebox
A perceived threat makes the use of deadly force legal, as does the perceived intent of someone to commit a felony.

Not in the military.

There has to be intent and ability before you can use deadly force. I can perceive that someone has a weapon all I want. I can't shoot them until they brandish the weapon and show hostile intent.

reply to post by COOL HAND

There has to be intent and ability before you can use deadly force. I can perceive that someone has a weapon all I want. I can't shoot them until they brandish the weapon and show hostile intent.

You're really just splitting hairs there. Any cop can tell you that what you think is a weapon, might just turn out to be a hero sandwhich. I saw a guy get shot in the head over can of Coors Light.

DoD authorizes the use of deadly force under various circumstances, including:

E2.1.2.3.5. Protect Public Health or Safety. When deadly force
reasonably appears to be necessary to prevent the destruction of public utilities or similar critical infrastructure vital to public health or safety, the damage to which, would create an imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm.

In other words, you can shoot to kill if someone starts knocking out street lights.

As a former Beret wearer, before my training even began, I was asked this same question. It was worded "Would I have any hesitations about using a firearm on any person that was a threat to the American way of life or the constitution. even if it was my own family!?"

The question was asked with everyone's eyes closed. Those who raised their hands were led away from the group. I DID NOT raise my hand. I guess that makes me a bad person but when I told my family about this- THEY UNDERSTOOD. They accepted the fact that I was trained to kill US or foreign people, including them, in order to protect the country.

And in 1980 I had the opportunity to carry out that order. I was part of the Security Alert Response Team, or SART, and was just sitting down with my mates to a fine evening meal of potatoes, fried chicken and corn, when the hostage call came through.

"Someone had taken the clerk hostage in the licqour store next to the alert aircraft parking ramp. Respond.!" We three did just that. We formed a perimeter around the back door, between us and the parked aircraft, with my position being the lead. (I'd get first shot in other words.)

Because there were nukes on board the alert aircraft, my orders were to stop ALL personnel from reaching the aircraft by using deadly force! And I was ready and willing to shoot the innocent hostage as well as the gunman to carry out those orders. Fortunately the negotiators talked him out of the hostage standoff and we were released from the standoff.

But I got no evening meal, no thanks, no medals of any kind for safeguarding our nukes AT ANY COST. Needless to say I did get a clean shirt during my last evening break because I was drenched after those tense 5 minutes.

So yes I would arrest and/or kill anyone if ordered to protect my country and its way of life.

Make of that what you will, but I still have my Good Conduct medals and pension. Hope that enlightens some of you.

reply to post by qxlb52


Star for you and telling it like it is. Orders are orders. Cops and soldiers don't carry weapons to look tough.

Originally posted by qxlb52
"Someone had taken the clerk hostage in the licqour store next to the alert aircraft parking ramp. Respond.!" We three did just that. We formed a perimeter around the back door, between us and the parked aircraft, with my position being the lead. (I'd get first shot in other words.)

Because there were nukes on board the alert aircraft, my orders were to stop ALL personnel from reaching the aircraft by using deadly force!

Just curious where this took place? I have been stationed all over and NEVER have I seen an aircraft WITH NUCLEAR capability NOT on a secured runway or in a secured hanger. How was the Class VI so close to an aircraft??????

Also you mention you were a beret holder....what color beret?

Sorry, but where I come from when you provide imput into a topic using YOUR personal experiance/training/knowledge...I won't go by just a story...not saying your BSing at all, just some verification helps...especially on topics like this where lives/security of this nation are in question.

WOW!!!! that cop in the shorts and the yellow shirt needs to have somebody bigger than him take his insecure loser rear end behind a wood shed and beat it raw with a heavy belt and teach him to respect the community he is supposed to protect and SERVE. the kid wasn't being a punk the cop was. Good thing it's on video. I hope the cop gets fired.

If he doesn't than we all know what side of the law that police precinct falls on. protecting their butts and not really stopping any real crime. wanna make a bet that cop couldn't stop a real crime if it were happening right infront of him. real men aren't intimidated by 14 year old skate boarders.


seriously all you cops. how do you rationalize this sort of behavior. it's pathetic and they really need to knock it off. get a hold of their life and stop feeling like they need to lash out at society.

How come if cops are doing "nothing wrong or immoral" like that cop was than why are they so afraid of a camera that is, if they were really doing the right thing, actually protecting them. Also for any cop to threaten to do anything with a persons video camera on public land is illegal and they know it. If you're in public people can videotape you and in a court of real law the cop would be sued into oblivion if he made any move to threaten the kid with the camera. it's illegal.

would most cops or soldiers attack their own citizens their sworn to protect. bet your ass they would. they generally have way too many mental issues to actually stand up for what is right. and this is from my experience with my own friends that are cops. If I were to give my unbiased opinion about them I would say that they are mentally unfit for protecting the peace. Good for wreaking havoc and oppression but thats about it. Seriously for the money we pay COPS how much crime is actually reduced because of COPS.

Wow! what a thread with lots of attitude, to stay on topic, I was also a "beret wearer" ( PLEASE!!!) when I was younger and in the service yes I would have killed anyone they would have let men kill, that's why they take agressive ,smart, YOUNG soldiers into the special forces so that they will follow orders for glory or whatever reason, the officers don't care as long as you will be their fall guy later.
The history of the bonus march in D.C., the whiskey rebellion, and my my isn't the cherry tree of police misconduct weighed down with fruit. I say like someone else did be afraid or be wary, the police are not your friends, the military has failed us in the past and I see no bright shining difference now. Fact is now that I have lived longer, made my own way in life I see I was wrong to believe that our "shepherds" were benevolent and cringe now at my earlier self,for I would have become one of them under slightly different circumstances.

No. I would not carry out any illegal orders. Also, my squad members would not kill me if I didn't. I would convince them not to either, and the we would take care of who gave us the illegal order in the proper way. We are not mindless, easily manipulated, horrible people. We are highly trained professionals that think for ourselves and solve problems as a team. Most of us joined for our own personal reasons. I never wanted to hurt anyone. Don't be so quick to judge; most of us are just like you.

Originally posted by morthn1waytoskinacat
Are you prepared to assult, arrest, or kill any citizen of your own country under orders from your government during a situation of martial law? To be more exact, would you do this under circumstances that if it were not martial law, you would never do because it would be illegal, immoral, or just plain inhuman? If so, please explain and or justify these actions to us, your peers, fellow humans, how you could do any of these things. (I was just following, or will be following orders will not be accepted as a qualifying answer). This question is not only posed to American service people but Canadian as well. Military and Police alike........heres your big chance to dispel all of our fears. I'm not being sarcastic or trying to bait you. If you have an opinion, lets hear it......

Former active duty US Army for seven years, including four years on tanks(Armor) with a deployment to Iraq in 03, and three years as military police with a deployment to Afghanistan in 05-06. I am currently in the Air National Guard.

I wouldn't assault, arrest or kill anyone that I felt had done nothing wrong.
I havn't and won't hurt the innocent. In Iraq I refused orders to kill stray dogs that were considered a "health hazard". In Afghanistan I protested the shooting of a dog by others in my unit. If I am that way about stray innocent dogs, you can imagine how I would be about a innocent human being.

The vast majority of people in the military will not act like inhuman killing machines. When my company commander shot a litter of puppies since he deemed it a health hazard and said the mother abandoned the pups, she did not, the unit lost all respect for him. There was one guy in our whole unit who harrassed an Iraqi sheep herder and vendor. We didn't have any respect for him either.

In Afghanistan one guy took upon himself to shoot a dog. It wasn't a health hazard and as far as we knew it belonged to someone. He got another guy in on his stupid plan. I protested and threatened to take it up the chain of command. I was asked to please not make a mess out of it. I let them know if one more stupid thing like that happens that would be it. We had no further incidents.




[edit on 2/5/08 by MikeboydUS]

Though I applaud the conduct of the poster above me, I'd hasten to add that the military was involved in the conspiracy to cover up the murder of our 35th President.

They took over the autopsy and ordered the doctors to say what they were told.

And the pay off for them? Most likely funding to continue the war.

It doesn't really matter what the troops in the trenches think about this aspect of the 'authority' question. The behavior comes from the top, either in them 'looking the other way', or by empowering those who do these deeds, indirectly promoting this agenda.

2 cents.

reply to post by devildogUSMC


you were saying?
www.prisonplanet.com...
www.prisonplanet.com...
www.prisonplanet.com...

Us regular civvies would sure like to believe you, but, actions speak louder than words. You can swear up and down you wouldn't, but there is always a justification isn't there?
I just hope you realize that when it comes down to the when the # hit's the fan, a very large majority of us will not go quietly, because it will mean our freedom. And as the great Retardo said, you are with us or you are against us, and it's very warm and snuggly that you all swear you wouldn't, but if you are confronted with a crowd of thousands of angry civs who want to bring down the corrupt bull# that is the "government", will you turn and shoot at the comrades of your unit when they open fire on us, or will you stand shoulder to shoulder with them, cowering like a snivelling little rat behind a plexiglass shield lined with taser tape, (with a microwave emitting torture device supporting you from behind), shooting in to the crowd with your brand new mp5's? My guess is the latter.
Why?
Because if you truly believed that freedom matters, you would not show up for duty that day, and be in the crowd, with us, fighting for what is right.
But I guess you also know that that means that someone you are probably good friends with will put a bullet through your head. You would know this because that is what you are trained to do. Kill the enemy. That enemy is us. Hard pill to swallow, but that's okay 'cause you are all heroes, right?
You are chosen to do the tough jobs , because WE are the cowards, the sheep, the blind who need to be lead right? RIGHT?

[edit on 17-5-2008 by morthn1waytoskinacat]

reply to post by MikeboydUS

Wow, you all lost respect for him. I'm sure he lies awake at night thinking about that....

We are Soldiers, not Saints; although with a conscious that which hangs above our heads and could very well haunt us while here on Earth. Billy Joel say, "I'd rather laugh with the sinners, than cry with the Saints." Therefor call me a sinner.