THENEO: How do you know they are all white with no markings? Did you see them on the ground up close or at 30,000 feet in the air? If on the ground, please take pictures. I'd love to see some of those. There are lots of all white comercial aircraft. You should know being Canadian and all. Air Canada is all white, except for a dark blue tail with the red maple leaf, but you won't see that when it's up high obviously. West Jet is mostly white too.

I'd like for once to have some one actualy document this stuff. It's pathetic really. There is more evidence of there being aliens and the like then there is of 'chemtrails'. You'd think that finding something on this 'chemtrail' conspiracy would be a lot easier then aliens, but I have not seen one photo that shows any aircraft that sprays chemicals up close, or a video showing the same plane flying back and forth laying down a grid pattern. There is basicly nothing but theories and a lot of talk, but that's all meaningless with out any substance to back up the supposed claims. (at least for me it is). Now I am an open minded person, but i'm not gullable. I don't believe what some John Smith says unless he/she has some actual proof. Seeing pictures of little thin white trails coming out of aircraft (no matter how long they last) is not proof of anything.

I just don't understand this 'chemtrail' thing. It's just the most inefficient way to do something (assuming the point is to do something to us). It would be like standing on top of some tall building with a spray bottle (you know those type where you can adjust the nozzle to make that misty spray) and trying to get them with the water that way. All i can say is, good luck with that. There are better and less obvious ways.

hey, TrickmastertricK, u want sites for what ive seen? kinda hard, i dun want to upload a 20:01 minute video of the sky.
ive got an open mind to conspiracies, i just happen to no that theres these white fluffy things that tend to hang out in the sky for a while, and they hang out for longer when theres more moisture in the air. just watch. u see a contrail/chemtrail lingering around for a much longer time than usual, check ur weather. precipitation shud be due.

Originally posted by Amorymeltzer
hey, TrickmastertricK, u want sites for what ive seen? kinda hard, i dun want to upload a 20:01 minute video of the sky.
ive got an open mind to conspiracies, i just happen to no that theres these white fluffy things that tend to hang out in the sky for a while, and they hang out for longer when theres more moisture in the air. just watch. u see a contrail/chemtrail lingering around for a much longer time than usual, check ur weather. precipitation shud be due.

Links???

Originally posted by jra
THENEO: How do you know they are all white with no markings? Did you see them on the ground up close or at 30,000 feet in the air? If on the ground, please take pictures. I'd love to see some of those. There are lots of all white comercial aircraft. You should know being Canadian and all. Air Canada is all white, except for a dark blue tail with the red maple leaf, but you won't see that when it's up high obviously. West Jet is mostly white too.

--actually through binoculars I have observed the planes. Also do a search on the web there are hundreds of sites now on chemtrails. I live directly under one of the three main flightlines into Pearson Airport, Canada's busiest. I have done so for 20 years. I have seen everything and I mean everything since the CNE airshow uses Pearson to shuttle planes for its major airshow every year. Nuff said on this.

I'd like for once to have some one actualy document this stuff. It's pathetic really. There is more evidence of there being aliens and the like then there is of 'chemtrails'. You'd think that finding something on this 'chemtrail' conspiracy would be a lot easier then aliens, but I have not seen one photo that shows any aircraft that sprays chemicals up close, or a video showing the same plane flying back and forth laying down a grid pattern. There is basicly nothing but theories and a lot of talk, but that's all meaningless with out any substance to back up the supposed claims. (at least for me it is). Now I am an open minded person, but i'm not gullable. I don't believe what some John Smith says unless he/she has some actual proof. Seeing pictures of little thin white trails coming out of aircraft (no matter how long they last) is not proof of anything.

--you need to do more research there is lots of pics out there, but one of the big problems is that most people do not own their own jets. Due to practical problems this is a most difficult situation to investigate. Heck it is difficult to get access to airstrips on almost any airport of any size too.

I just don't understand this 'chemtrail' thing. It's just the most inefficient way to do something (assuming the point is to do something to us). It would be like standing on top of some tall building with a spray bottle (you know those type where you can adjust the nozzle to make that misty spray) and trying to get them with the water that way. All i can say is, good luck with that. There are better and less obvious ways.

--what way is better? there isn't any that I know of? You sure you don't know Howard?

Originally posted by TrickmastertricK

Originally posted by Amorymeltzer
hey, TrickmastertricK, u want sites for what ive seen? kinda hard, i dun want to upload a 20:01 minute video of the sky.
ive got an open mind to conspiracies, i just happen to no that theres these white fluffy things that tend to hang out in the sky for a while, and they hang out for longer when theres more moisture in the air. just watch. u see a contrail/chemtrail lingering around for a much longer time than usual, check ur weather. precipitation shud be due.

Links???

i thought i made that clear. i do not have any links for what i see with my own eyes. i have neither the bandwidth, the money, nor the camera to do such a thing, nor wud i have before today.
u want a link? look at the bloody sky. no, dont look, see it. if u do that, ull realize what im saying. things happen for a reason, not everything is a plot against us.
just some thing

Originally posted by Amorymeltzer
hey! its that crap that makes the water taste so good and not sulfuric. sides, fluorine in the water is very good for u. most minerals in the water are in fact healthy for u. any bacteria is usually minor and helps to strengthen ur immune system.

more crap, however, cud be bad, especially if that crap is, oh, i dunno, arsenic?

oh, i know that stuff makes water better for you. but you never know if they could be putting something in it. it's just speculation.

Originally posted by Intrepidberk
I feel that there are only a few of us that have actually realised that clouds are made of water. When you burn anything, jet fuel included, water is given off. When you smoke too much dope - PARANOIA is given off.

hah, yeah... pretty much. when you do any drugs that'll happen.

Originally posted by THENEO
a large jetliner is flying criss cross patterns at high altitude across a large urban area, the plane is white with no markings whatsoever? (against air regs).

most planes are white from the bottom... and how can you tell if there are markings or not when looking from the bottom? the only markings a plane needs are it's N-numbers (EDIT: or whatever other countries' insignia are), nothing else. i'm not gonna go into the rest of it because basically, i think the "chemtrail" this is all potheads gone wild... so yeah...

Originally posted by THENEO

--you need to do more research there is lots of pics out there, but one of the big problems is that most people do not own their own jets. Due to practical problems this is a most difficult situation to investigate. Heck it is difficult to get access to airstrips on almost any airport of any size too.

since when is it hard to get to the the airstrips of any airport of anysize? i go to airports in the metro-detrtoit area ALL the time. never had a problem

[Edited on 2/16/2004 by cmdrkeenkid]

Commander,

yes true a plane only has to put on numbers but those numbers have to be viewable from a certain distance and they can be seen from the ground under magnification. Most planes catalogued do not have numbers even when viewed from any angles. Planes that operate as sprayers often bank and turn thus the opportunity to see sides, and other angles of the fuselage and wings etc. In my immediate airspace with many commercial flights and with also cargo planes, there are very few planes that have no commercial markings. Even military planes have markings or special paint jobs. Only corporate jets are planes that I normally see with the type markings you describe.

It is known that the CIA and military special ops use unmarked planes but event then they are often numbered. In this case because many of the planes resemble CIA craft it is reasonable believed that this is a CIA operation (which it is btw).

In regards taking photos, you have a point. I can access much of the runways at Pearson from adjacent roads and even public terminals but not all hangars or tarmac or storage areas though. Airports that cater to more commercial traffic such as Hamilton International it is not as easy to gain access. In the case of Military airports it goes without saying that access is difficult usually. This btw is where most of the sprayers have been seen on military bases, particularily older bases that are underused or even shut down. In the North East here bases are rumoured to be in Maine and a few of the other adjacent states. These bases are WWII vintage or even cold war vintage and not used as much. I live within 10 minutes walking of CFB Downsview/Toronto, a good sized airport in central Toronto that is shut down but amazingly the government is reluctant to tear it up and redevelope the land for some strange reason? It is those type of bases that most of the spraying operations are flying out of.

For those who always have a knee-jerk reaction to any "conspiracy" talk by automatically rejecting it as "paranoia" or "conspiracy nut", just stop and take a closer look at those chemtrails if you ever get the chance. They are definitely not contrails, as they stay visible for a very long time, while contrails disappear as soon as the water vapor in the plane's exhaust reaches the same temperature as the surrounding air.

Also, the chemtrails are not coming out of the planes engines but from a spray boom mechanism mounted on the plane. If you don't believe me, get a pair of binoculars and see for yourself! I live in Central California and at times there are so many chemtrails above me it looks like a cloudy day, when it started as a clear day. The amount of air traffic high above this area on days when these chemtrails appear is also very unusual, even if they were actually contrails, which I am convinced they aren't.

If you are in a high-spray chemtrail area, notice the activity of each participating plane. After awhile you can only conclude that these planes, as numerous as they are and leaving the exact same thing behind them, are there to do nothing more than spray some mysterious chemical into the skies. I am a farmer and I am outside all the time, so I get a chance to observe these actvities all the time.

There have been numerous occasions where there were planes above me that were BOTH leaving chemtrails AND contrails. If this ever happens, it is easy to see the difference between these two things.

Let?s assume that the particulates that make up the trail are an average of 3 microns in diameter and that the density of the ?Chem X? material is 2.0 g/cm3.

How much Chem X (in Lbs) is released by the airplane in that 10 minutes for the following concentration of particulates in the ?trail??

0.01 particle / cc

0.1 particle / cc

1 particles / cc

10 particles / cc

100 particles / cc

1000 particles / cc

Good luck and be prepared to show your work.

If it helps at all Howard, The UK Chemical Defence Experimental Establishment at Porton Down estimated that the amount of particles per gramme that were used in their Biological Warfare simulant experiments were:

17,000,000,000 per gram.

(source - Porton Field Report No 504, Porton Note 185)

The simulant used in their trials was Zinc Cadmium sulphide (ZnCds aka FP) powder. Each particle was between 1-5 microns in size. The powder was normally released by an aircraft flying a straight-line track, sometimes up to 200 miles in length.

The following page is taken from Porton Programme 2/64 which describes the procedures for the proposed secret 1964 ZnCds Biological Warfare experiments, that were to use the UK city of Norwich as their target.

Section 8 - Source states :

This substance is quite innocuous in the concentrations that will occur near the ground, and the cloud moreover be so diffuse that members of the public will be oblivious of its presence.


Source: Porton Programme Report No 2/64 - PES/TU1206/3493/63 Issued 1/1/1964,
obtained from Dstl Porton Down via a request made under the UK predecessor to the newish FOIA - the Code of Practice on Access to Government Information.

zero lift

[edit on 22-3-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

Zero lift, is there a source available for that document?
If so, I can edit it into your post

Originally posted by Zaphod58
They're called "persistant contrails". When there is enough moisture in the air then contrails will last for hours in some cases. But they're still just contrails.

The one thing you de-bunkers always fail to add to that statement is that persistent con-trails are RARE. Yet we are seeing them now on a regular basis.
So what happened? Did our atmosphere change to allow rare persistant con-trails to become common? Or something else?

I winessed a spraying operation a few yrs back. 2 planes working together making a nice criss-cross patern in the sky. Took them about 2 hours to finish, by then the con-trails had made a nice cloud cover over a once cloudless blue summer sky. Yeah persistant contrails

All it takes for a persistent contrail is enough humidity in the air. How is that extremely rare? And yes our atmosphere has been changing lately due to global warming, and all the storms, and other conditions.

Wow this thread brings back memories...

Originally posted by ANOK
The one thing you de-bunkers always fail to add to that statement is that persistent con-trails are RARE. Yet we are seeing them now on a regular basis.
So what happened? Did our atmosphere change to allow rare persistant con-trails to become common? Or something else?

Everytime you see a 'chemtrail' do you check to see if the humidity is right for persistent contrails as well at all? If you don't check, then how can you know for sure that it's rare or not?

I winessed a spraying operation a few yrs back. 2 planes working together making a nice criss-cross patern in the sky. Took them about 2 hours to finish, by then the con-trails had made a nice cloud cover over a once cloudless blue summer sky. Yeah persistant contrails

Jet exhaust being mostly water vapour. And if the skies over your area have heavy commercial air traffic, why would it be hard for you to believe that they could form clouds?

zero lift: If I read that document correctly, it says the plane has to be flying at 400ft when spraying. That's not very high at all. Not nearly as high as what most of the chemtrail believers claim are 'chemtrails'.

There is a simple way to cut back drastically on the number of 'chemtrails' - stop travelling by air.

The reason they're becoming more common and more noticeable is simply because of the steady increase in air traffic over the past decade. also, like all meteorological phenomena, once you strat looking for them, you start seeing them more often (I never realised how common Mammatus and Irridesence Clouds, for example, were until a couple, of years ago when I started deliberately looking for them )

Expect to see much more in years to come.....

Originally posted by jra
Everytime you see a 'chemtrail' do you check to see if the humidity is right for persistent contrails as well at all? If you don't check, then how can you know for sure that it's rare or not?

How often do you see contrails that last all day?
1. Quite often
2. Rarely
Answer honestly pls.

Jet exhaust being mostly water vapour. And if the skies over your area have heavy commercial air traffic, why would it be hard for you to believe that they could form clouds?

I do live in a heavy air traffic area, San fran and Oakland airports. Flights that go over the city are pretty low, just taking off or landing. Jets that are on holding pattern go out over the ocean, not over the city. Also these two planes were too high to be normal traffic for this area, they didn't change their altitude in two hours and flew in straight lines, oposite directions to each other before turning and doing the same thing over and over. They then flew off somewhere out of the area. I didn't know about chemtails before I saw this. I watched because I was in a park (Fort Mason) and it just caught my attention so I kept watching. I have 6 yrs experience with aircraft as a jet mech in the Navy, so it just struck me as odd. It wasn't till later I heard about chemtrails on the Art Bell show, and what they said matched what I saw exactly.

Is it so hard for you to believe that a spray program is in operation? I mean it's not as if they haven't suggested this very thing for weather control. The military/gov are always experimenting with something and it is a fact it's been done before, especially here on the west coast. I am close to Livermore labs and other such establishments.

I don't bother looking at Chem documents too much or visit the web sites. I'm really not that interested, I just know what I saw and like to share. I'm not one of the guys running around saying Oh No! they're spraying us with poison chemicals. It's just what I saw cannot be explained away by swamp gas or persisting contrails.

Originally posted by ANOK
How often do you see contrails that last all day?
1. Quite often
2. Rarely
Answer honestly pls.

Well that's hard to answer, because. It gets cloudy a lot here to begin with, especially this time of the year. I'm also not outside for long periods at a time when it is clear and i'm not always looking up.

But when I do happen to see a jet leaving a trail, sometimes they leave a long, persistant trail and sometimes they don't. I don't really see one type more then the other. I'd have to say it's rare that I see comercial air traffic in general. Partly because i'm not looking for it and like I said before. It's rather cloudy this time of year. I did see a trail that lingered in the air for a while, several weeks ago though.

Is it so hard for you to believe that a spray program is in operation? I mean it's not as if they haven't suggested this very thing for weather control. The military/gov are always experimenting with something and it is a fact it's been done before, especially here on the west coast. I am close to Livermore labs and other such establishments.

It can be hard for me to believe, depending on what one is claiming the spray operation to be for. The main chemtrail theory or at least it used to be the main one it seemed, was that the Gov't was trying to poison people with these chemtrails. I find that very silly and very hard to believe.

Weather control I could find more believable, but i'd personally need more evidence of such activities. Something more then pictures. Videos would be nice. If people could track the flights, figure out where they land etc. That would be a start. But no one seems to do that.

I do believe that regular commercial air traffic has an effect on the weather. With thousands of flights all over the world pumping out all that vapour into the air 24/7. This is why I have a harder time believing that there would be planes purposely trying to affect the weather, when there are already thousands of planes doing so. What difference are a couple more planes going to add to it? But either way, I defiantely would find cloud seeding/weather control theory more believable then the poison spraying theory for sure.

zero lift: If I read that document correctly, it says the plane has to be flying at 400ft when spraying. That's not very high at all. Not nearly as high as what most of the chemtrail believers claim are 'chemtrails'.

Absolutely, Jra.

The principle of the Large Area Coverage concept was to disseminate a massive long line source BW aerosol many hundreds of miles away from the target area. The resulting aerosol would be carried to the target area on the prevailing wind and could contaminate 10,000 square miles or more.

The LAC concept relies on 'subsidence inversions' in the atmosphere at various heights acting as 'lids' to any aerosol cloud generated at a lower level. These 'lids' would prevent the aerosol cloud from diluting vertically, thus allowing the cloud to maintain its concentration on it's travel to the target area.

Porton Down (and later the US and CAN) adopted a 'subsidence inversion' height of 5,000 ft as a working limit.
(source - Study of the Possible Attack of Large Areas with BW Agents 1957 OEC.176 TOP SECRET - DISCREET)

Although most LAC experiments were carried out with line source aircraft spraying from an altitude of between 1,000 - 1,500 ft, it was later established that a successful LAC attack could be made from a source height of 30 ft.

This was successfuly demonstrated in 1959, when a ship, HMS BLACKPOOL, sailed down the English Channel and up the Irish Sea, disseminating the BW simulant ZnCds. Results showed that an area of some 14,400 square miles had been contaminated by the ZnCds cloud.
(source - Porton Note No 146 24 March 1960 SECRET)

All of which proves that there is no need to spray from a great height to contaminate vast areas; in fact the reverse is more effective.




zero lift