Police Illegally Seizing DNA from Drivers

Originally posted by eyewitness86
reply to post by benign.psychosis

 

You TRUST the SYSTEM? Are you kidding me? You really think that SYSTEMS arew reliable and honest? Wake up and smell the real world! When all peoples DNA is in the SYSTEM, we are then at the total mercy of whoever controls the system: If you become a bother to the powers that be, why YOUR DNA will be the one declared to be the guilty parties!! Imagine that!

With governments so dishonest and criminal that they would pull a 9-11 in America, or a 7-7 in the UK, are we really supposed to trust THEM? My God, I would trust the lowest crackhead on the street before I would a scumbag liar and criminal like Bush or Cheney: The real scum lies at the top, and needs to be removed before the rest of the product gets contaminated.

That's exactly right.
There is absolutely no way I will ever comply with that.
I have absolutely no trust whatesoever in any system operating in this country.

I read it all the same way. It makes it extremely convenient for them to plant evidence at the scene. It's getting to the point where citizens are going to have to start policing the police.

Originally posted by ATruGod
reply to post by benign.psychosis

 

So your of the idea that we should just capitulate to the authorities anytime somethings happened?

Does that mean if they pull me over cause someone robbed a bank and I fit the profile I should submit to a strip search so they can make sure it wasnt me? I know it sounds ridiculous.....thats my point!

[edit on 7-2-2008 by ATruGod]

Your point is well-received and NO you should not submit.
If you are not hiding anything there is no reason to bother you at all.

reply to post by benign.psychosis


It doesn't matter what the purpose is, it really doesn't matter what they do with it, it's just wrong. If someone kills your child, it's still illegal for you to kill the killer, no matter how justifiable. We have to decide, are we going to follow reason and morals or our laws?

I'm not a paranoid with delusions of a secret datatbase. I really don't care what they do with my DNA, whatever their doing, I'm sure I woudln't have a problem with it IF THEY WERE COLLECTING IT LEGALLY.

How many serial killers have been caught in this country, and how many times did the police have to resort to this?

Start standing up for your rights, let them slip once and you may as well forget them forever.

I realize now that we as Americans have no rights. We only think we do. They are pretend rights. Until the government wants them back, for every right we have the government has a right to take them. But we will sit back and do nothing except complain to each other.

This is not an illegal seizure, it is an effort to attempt to find someone who is terrorizing that city. The people who are criticizing the "power of the man" and the same people who are the first to say the police do nothing to prevent crime. Circular and ignorant logic at work which is why our country is so screwed up right now.

link to article

First, it is voluntary that you give the sample and it is part of a nationwide effort. This would be used to help find raptists and violent offenders who often move to another state to get away from warrants or illegal acts. Second, they are implementing a program that would swab anyone 'arrested' and processed instead of doing it to jsut violent offenders. that way a rapist from Maryland picked up for petty theft in Florida could be extridited.

This is not a violation of rights in anyway and you CANNOT be arrested if you did not voluntarily give a sample. Read the facts and stop with the propoganda.

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
Let's see... Do I think pulling people over for a 2 minute DNA test justifies keeping at least one more person alive, and getting a serial killer off of the streets?

Yep, as a matter of fact. I would give up DNA and 2 minutes if it meant that a fellow human being could keep their life.

No it doesn't justify breaching the constitutions 4th amendment. You are free to willfully submit your saliva and DNA, but without a warrant or probable cause, I don't have to, and the cops have to be fine with that - otherwise they are not upholding the constitution.

It was Ben Franklin who said: ""Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."

Originally posted by tha stillz

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
Let's see... Do I think pulling people over for a 2 minute DNA test justifies keeping at least one more person alive, and getting a serial killer off of the streets?

Yep, as a matter of fact. I would give up DNA and 2 minutes if it meant that a fellow human being could keep their life.

No it doesn't justify breaching the constitutions 4th amendment. You are free to willfully submit your saliva and DNA, but without a warrant or probable cause, I don't have to, and the cops have to be fine with that - otherwise they are not upholding the constitution.

It was Ben Franklin who said: ""Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Think about that for a second.

since i'm not interested in becoming a criminal and gave up on vandalism as a form of revenge when i was 14--am+60 now -i have absolutely nothing to hide from or about----they would be welcome to my dna--although i hope to not have a criminal "twin" with the same identical or close enough to someone elses dna so that a mistake of identity could be made.

The ISSUE is this: Cops' CANNOT tell the truth, it is like a vampire and a cross. The cop's are telling people that they MUST obey and give the swab.They are LYING to the public, and that is LEGAL. It is also LEGAL for a citizen with backbone and some knowledge of the law to say NO to them. BUT, most people in this sheepish and lemming like nation WILL be intimidated into complying.

That is UNAMERICAN!! We should NOT be lied to and bullied and accosted and have illegal demands made of us in public that we have to resist. In New Jersey, thank God one state has it right, the cop's are NOT allowed to ask for CONSENT for any searches or seizures unless they get a supervisors permission and have ' reasonable grounds to believe ' that a crime is or has been committed. NOT a hunch, or a guess, but real and " ARTICULABLE EVIDENCE ".



Many states will adopt this as cop's go too far with asking for consent searches; it becamse such a problem in NJ that they had to have the Supreme Court there declare that cop's can no longer routinely ask and intimidate and hassle people for consent. Cop's use consent as a tool for easy busts for them. If 100 people give up their rights, then a few of them will be found with some minor contraband or some other petty nonsense and give the cop an excuse to sit around and eat donuts and write a slow report to finsih the shift.

Cop's are accustomed to bluffing, intimidation and lying as part of their ' jobs '. It is illegal in many cases but cop's can lie and if we are stupid enough to swallow the lies, then we pay the price. A cop will tell a person that they will do all these awful things to them if the do not give consent: It is all bluff and lies. These same big bluffing bullies will shrink and cower before a defense attorney and when a good lawyer pins the ears back for some lying cop and the embarrassment creeps in and his eaars get red and the whole courtroom knows that the cop is a liar and a lawbreaker...that is a WONDERFUL feeling and one I have experienced.

Shaming some lying cop in court is one of the few ways to reign them in: Next time that cop will be more careful about violating a coitizens rights. If a cop goes too far, then a federal civil rights lawsuit is just the thing to ruin his life and take all he owns. That gets their attention fast!!

But this issue boils down to this: Some people who are ignorant of the law and their rights will believe that this is Ok for the cop's to bully and intimidate and lie to us: But if that is what being a cop is all about, then we are really in deep crap in this nation. Cop's cannot be trusted, so nothing they say can be believed. If a cop says : you MUST give me your DNA, just say " OK, Officer, show me the law that says so and I will comply". Of course he cannot, and will stammer and stutter and bluster and threaten..thats all bluff.

If you stand FIRM and say NO, the offending cop will go away and he will lose the battle of wills: That is what this really is, a battle of wills between some cop who uses lies and bluffs to get his way, and the citizen who knows the law and his rights and tells the cop's to go to hell.

The LAW says that we do NOT have to submit to any testing or evidence gathering without a warrant or a court order. Repeat this sentence over and over until it sinks in, then you will have no more problems comprehending this issue. It is simple. The cop's are bluffing and lying, and all you have to do is say NO and they will have to back down. And believe me, backing down some big mouthed bullying cop is a great feeling and a real pump for the confidence and in support of the Constitution.

The people here who are FOR police intimidation, lying and bullying are simply ignorant of the law and what it says; they prefer to think that cop's are some kind of righteous heroes, and most of them are just liars and criminals with a badge and gun who have no respect for human life or the law itself. MOST cop's will LIE and do so all the time. I happen to believe that it is NOT the job of the police to lie and bluff and intimidate citizens into giving up their rights; their job is to SEVE us by UPHOLDING the rule of law, NOT by trashing it and using it as a blunt weapon to smash over the heads of the innocent.

When the cops hear the scum bag in chief 'Bush the filthy' say that torture is Ok, and lying is OK, thats all they need. With an example like Bush as President, no wonder this nation is going to hell in a handbasket. Lawless Presidents means lawless coips and lawless government. If we do not stop the people in authority that are open liars, bullies, perjurers and killers, we deserve what we get from them, including Nazi type round up's of innocent citizens to steal their boldy fluids based on lies and bullying.

It should sicken and depress the civilzed mind and soul to realize that in America, we have sunk so low that we are allowing cop's to tell lies over and over and misadvise the people on their legal rights so that they can get around the constitution al rights we used to enjoy. It is NOT voluntary unless the citizen is fully aware of his right to refuse and can do so without intimidation, bullying and lying by the ' protectors ' that we pay to enforce the laws fairly.

Voluntary means that a decision was made in full awareness of the consequences and without any pressure to conform. MOST people are too weak and too timid to say NO to some bigbellied, swaggering, loud mouthed cop with his beer and donut belly spilling over his pants and his guns and weapons inches away, reminding the people of what MIGHT happen if the ' anger ' the cop. This intimidation is what cop's today use as authority. In the old days , cop's got respect. Now they do not deserve respect, so they instead demand obedience from us, that will pass as respect for them.

This is a sick world, and a sick nation, and one of the symptoms of a sick nation is when the people are cowed and bullioed by the cop's, routinely, and believe that they have NO choice when some cop makes a demand. The choice is this: Tell the stinking, lying, bluffing cop NO. And MEAN it. Do NOT back down and do not argue the point. Just say NO and if the cop violates youir rights, sue the scum for all he has and believe me the message will get thru the thick skulls of his pals too.

If you do NOT take a stand now, you will not be able to later when you are already on your knees. Get up and take back the truth!! The next time some stupid cop asks you for something he has no legal right to, just sau HELL NO, and watch his twist and squirm and lie some more. Keep cool and say nothing and let him hang himself, set himself up for a nice juicy lawsuit.

I have never been in trouble with the law, I live a straight arrow life, I have nothing to hide. If I was stopped at a check point I would not give my dna to them PERIOD

Originally posted by sigung86
I'm kind of wondering if this might not be a bit of a big wind over nothing... I don't doubt therre are police who would try to take advantage of the situation. What I am wondering is, if this is true as printed, how come the Lawyers aren't all over it like white on rice (Please pardong the terrible comparison)...

I suspect there is more here than meets the eye of certain cop haters, and supporters alike. We aren't getting the whole story from an article, I'd wager.

The Big Wind comes because there is great cause for concern....

These police ARE trying to take advantage of every single motorist they are stopping. The reason lawyers are not all over it, is because once the drivers were tricked, they had already given up they rights. They may have legal recourse themselves, but some random lawyer, with no 'class action' list of who was stopped would be grasping at ether.

So in order for anything to happen, the drivers who were tricked would have to come out of the wood work.

Another problem about this is the precedents that incidents like this create. Once one investigation stoops to this level of assault on the rights of its citizens, it becomes more and more ingrained into the popular culture. People let Police search their cars because they don't know that they can say no. Same here. It works against the 'investigation' to tell each motorist their rights before you try to convince them to waive them.

All in all, this incident, and incidents like this further break down our rights bit by bit.
Slow Erosion instead of Fascist Roundups.
DocMoreau

reply to post by benign.psychosis


There is always a boogie man. Whether he is Black, Jewish, Asian, Muslim, or a rapist. Sorry but no givey uppy of the 4th Sir.

Ugh! This is getting ridiculous. Why not add snips of finger nails and puppy dogs tails to their list? We have lots of hair from various parts of our bodies, flakes from dander on our scalps, sebum from secretions of oil glands, boogers and blood, if these ‘collection agencies’ have all the time to gather from us. I feel we are losing our rights as sovereign folks to roam freely on our wide open roads and without the fear of being pulled over to submit parts of ourselves to perfect strangers. God, I may be facetious here but I wouldn’t want a clone of me running about either and all because of some weird swabbing going on in public.

I hope that one day I am confronted with this.

I'll gladly give 'em a sample of my bodily fluid...all over his shoes.

reply to post by benign.psychosis


Your first link is from a blog and offers no information as to who will be doing the DNA readings. It offers no information as to where or if this is being used or if it is out of the testing process.

Your second link explains very clearly within the first paragraph that the developing process. So exactly where are these things being used?

The device -- along with other, even smaller units the team is now in the process of developing -- paves the way for enormous savings to health-care systems and will improve care for patients.

It goes on to say they have some smaller, faster prototypes now but nothing about them being used as of yet. This is only proof of an idea and concept not of its actual use.

With all the demands for DNA testing these devices would surely cut the work load down to nothing. Why are there still labs taking 24 hours to get the testing done? With such a device (if it were working) there would be no waiting.
I guess since there is no training involved to read DNA and do testing I should tell all the professors that I no longer need them as well and just go out and get a job. I can tell them that there are machines to do everything for me all I need to do is match the pretty colors.

If these are out there and being used why is it no one is seeing them?

I never said the normal cop was too stupid to read DNA by the way I was simply stating how those that do the reading are required extra training and degrees in schooling. Not all police forces have their own CSIs either some actually contract that out to a private lab. Any officer that does do CSI work regarding DNA or even the collection of evidence must go through training. I cannot get a job in the field until I complete the proper schooling and get a degree plain and simple. Being a normal cop is not the same as being an officer that investigates a crime scene or does any testing on DNA.

It does not matter what the machine does if you are not properly trained from beginning to end you are not going to be testing any bodies DNA.

I guess I should have made my request for information on faster than 24 hour DNA testing somewhat easier to understand.

Please provide a link or more from a reliable verifiable source that this is being used now in the field.

The only source you gave last time that I would trust stated that it was in development. I also want you to provide a link that says you will not need any training to test and read the results properly of a DNA test. If this is the case then our whole education system for such things is no longer needed and the average Joe will be doing DNA testing out of his home.

Also while I might be able to do the Google search I’m not the one making the claims you are.

Thanks
Raist

reply to post by eyewitness86


you apparently dont live in new jersey. we have one law here...the officer is ALWAYS right. if they dont have a law for something they make one up. if they write you for the wrong law,when you go to court,they just change it. if you fight a cop here, you wind up in the hospital or dead. i had an officer search my daughter ,who was 14 at the time. he took cigarettes out of her crotch, and touched her inappropriatly. when i confronted him in the police station and tried to press charges, he said he would do it again, and was THROWN OUT OF THE POLICE STATION. i went all the way to the governor's office and couldn't do a thing. if you think these guys just do their job,c'mon out and visit the good old garden state.
all you have to do is fight a cop for doing something to you and you'll get free room and board. and if you think there's recourse,go for it..i need a good laugh.
and how about good ol pennsylvania? get a ticket inphiladelphia! thats a blast! you go in front of a judge. the officer doesn't hsave to be there anymore. sit down for this one...THE JUDGE BECOMES THE WITNESS AGAINST YOU ,AND ACTS AS THE PROSECUTOR ALSO!!!!!. SO,YOU ARE IMMEDIATLY GUILTY. YOU DO HAVE RECOURSE THERE THOUGH, you have to pay the court,and appeal the case. best part is that if you do beat the charges,they do drop them,BUT THEY KEEP YOUR MONEY.PERIOD.
I WISH I COULD GO INTO THE LONG DETAILS ABOUT THE ABUSE THAT IS RAMPANT IN THIS PHINE STATE, BUT I DONT HAVE HOURS TO SIT HERE AND TYPE.
BUT WHAT IT BOILS DOWN TO IS THAT YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS IN NJ, and these are not the people i want invading my privacy,nor do i want diminished privacy, no matter what their lame excuses are. you people who think think this to help you need help. i am 53 years old. old enough to remember real police officers,before they were "LAW ENFORCEMENT"
YOU NEED TO GET REAL IF YOU THINK ANYTHING IS BEING DONE TO HELP YOU when a cop acts like hes rying to help you you become vulnerable then they strike in my state.
i live in a 1.35 square mile town which has a 0 crime rating. it also has 35 police officers... for what? do you think they run it like a boyscout troop?NOT ONLY IS THERE 35 COPS BUT THEY HAVE A REALLY NEAT THING CALLED SHARED JURISDICTION,THEY CAN TRAVEL INTO OTHER TOWNSHIPS AND DO THEIR THING WITH NO IMPUNITY.
if you think they're swabbing in fla. to help you then let your rights erode. we in nj watched ours get blindfolded and shot.
what will it take to get you to realize that when they're gone you'll never see them again. salutations from one of the most facist police states in the world...NEW JERSEY
also dont you realize these police officers are no lnger a part of society,they are their own gang now and are treating people as such
if you look on google earth, you will find fema camps in illinois. do you think the police are going to fight on our side to keep us out of them if we are ordered in? if you do i have a bridge named after BEN FRANKLIN i'll sell you.
OUR FOREFATHERS AND MANY MORE,INCLUDING MY DAUGHTER ARE FIGHTING FOR THESE FREEDOMS YOU SAY ARE SAFE. YOU HAVE TO FIGHT WITH EVERYTHING YOU ARE,AND EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE IN TO STAY FREE.THIS GOVERNMENT AND THE PEOPLE BEHIND IT DO NOT WANT YOU FREE, AND THEIR PLAN IS IN FULL SWING...OPEN YOUR EYES
[edit on 9-2-2008 by Spectre0o0]

[edit on 9-2-2008 by Spectre0o0]

I am amazed at the people who do not realize that they deposit DNA everywhere they go and most everywhere they go is a potential crime scene ,let's say your DNA is in a database,you go down to the local conveinence store for some milk late at night,while you are there you deposit some hair or skin,since we are always shedding it can happen,you leave the store and the next person comes in and robs the place and kills the clerk,by chance they leave no DNA.

The police come and collect your DNA from the scene,find a database match and come knocking at your door...what are you going to tell them..how are you going to defend yourself...you bought a gallon of milk and now you are a suspect,some malicous soul gets a hold of a hair and puts it somewhere.The possibilities are endless,once your DNA is on file you can be said to have been anywhere.

The people who who so naively believe that there is little risk of abuse or fraud are the same people who would gladly exchange freedom for security,the founding fathers spoke of them and the United States would never have existed if such people had been in charge at the beginnig,freedom requires courage,the courage to live life with all of it's attending risk and hazards with no guarantees of anything.

The fact is that alot of people today do not have the true ability to be free,they want to be comfortable,they want to be coddled and cuddled in the arms of benevolent father government who they rather naively believe will never abuse or corrupt the power they so willingly hand over,they are neither students of history or human nature and probably know more about the most recent escapades of Brittney Spears or what the currents stats are of some overpaid and overblown ball handler,blissfuly ignorant of anything that matters,and violently opposed to anything that would inerrupt their fun and frolic

The best line i ever heard to describe most Americans today was in a song by Eddie Brickel and the new bohemians that came out in the 90s...it goes "I don't know much about too many things,i know what i know if you know what i mean"..an astute observation or perhaps self evaluation.I know what it means,it means that this land once inhabited by the free and the brave and i might add informed is now inhabited by couch patatoes,trivia troopers,self obsessed,celebrity worshiping little half boiled frogs who will one day find out that they have become slaves,have lost their freedom forever and will spend the rest of their lives drowning in a sea of regret knowing they have no one to blame but themselves.

Originally posted by Strings
next person comes in and robs the place and kills the clerk,by chance they leave no DNA.

The police come and collect your DNA from the scene,find a database match and come knocking at your door

That's exactly what they do to seize cash found on drug suspects. As many of us have been made aware of most of our CASH money comes in contact with money that has been in contact with COCAINE thus traces are exchanged amongst all bills when they go into a cash register or a bank pouch.

So, when suspect drug dealers/users get arrested with some drugs they automatically test the cash with chemicals or dogs & of course since most money has trace residue of drugs they get a positive result & seize the cash.

Clearly the test are invalid and don't pass the scientific smell test because we don't all get issued brand new money every time we make a transaction or go to the bank. Short of issuing new money with every transaction they can't scientifically prove that the trace of drugs on the cash is from you or the other people who had that cash before you.

Even though they are aware if they take their own money out of their wallet they will get the same positive result. That's exactly cops cannot be trusted with these types of tools, they just abuse them in order to run a ruse on those not paying attention. Even the courts go along with them because it is instant revenue in their pockets - they don't care if there right or wrong all they care about is money and if they have to lie & put people in jail to get more money they do while standing tall telling us bald face lies.

It not about right & wrong its about how they can create the illusion of wrong doing for their personal financial benefit.





[edit on 10-2-2008 by verylowfrequency]

Right now we still HAVE a 4th amendment right. When the NAU comes into place, do we really think Canada and Mexico are going to recognize and play by OUR rules? There WILL be a new constitution for all Canada, Mexico and U.S. that will undoubtedly leave out little aggravations like the bill of rights, gun rights, freedom of speech rights, right to be secure in your personal papers, etc.

People, if we don't fight for them now, we WILL lose them forever. All of them.

reply to post by benign.psychosis


"Will I break the law or won't I and do I mind people breaking the law being fined for it?

Let's think about that for a minute. Have you ever been toodling along on your way to work and realized that you were going 3 miles over the speed limit? Technically you were breaking the law and could actually be fined for it. (It's happened to me-why I avoid Arizona). Who is the injured party that makes complaint against you? The State? How were they injured? "They" weren't. Was it reckless driving? Was anyone put in danger by that extra 3 miles over the "limit"? Are the limits set arbitrarily or are they set by structural engineers who calculate that sort of thing? The limits are set by structural engineers (and city planners) and a minimum of 10mph UNDER the actual limit for any particular type of road is the legal limit that is set. Is anyone safer because I was fined for that 3 miles over the legal limit? I doubt it. You could drive through half of Az. at 100mph asleep and still not run into anything.

It's about revenue gathering. DNA testing is about power and control. Just as revenue gathering is not going to gather revenue in YOUR pocket, DNA testing is not putting the power and control into your hands. Our system of government is supposed to be FOR the people, BY the people.

All the "safety" measures already in place in our brave new world have not kept the people safe. Vaccines are killing off people in droves and permanently disabling more. Emission control levels set by the "safety" experts are in place and we still have global warming. Department of Agriculture has a "safe" amount of bug parts we can have in our food supply. I could go on, but I think you get the idea.

What we need is less "safety" measures and more common sense used by the people who have been entrusted to "provide for the general welfare" of the citizens who elected them. That's all they've been entrusted with, not regulating every aspect of our lives.