Opponents Of National Health Care Explain Why

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posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 08:00 PM
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Originally posted by jtma508
I think it is blindingly evident that the federal government is incapable of managing anything.

We have a two party system in the United States. People that want to run things, and people that want to destroy them. That's not hyperbole, it's on their websites.

Don't say a Democratic Congress and President can't solve health care just because 8 years of total control by Republicans destroyed it.




posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 08:05 PM
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Originally posted by KrazyJethro I, a young 30 year old with 3 healthy children and a healthy wife would have the burden of the multitudes of fat unhealthy people, many of them with fat children as well, who enjoy fast food at the dinner table more often than not.

My thoughts.
KJ


May you and yours be spared catastophic illness, then.



posted on Feb, 7 2008 @ 06:29 AM
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reply to post by HHH Is King
 


These other member have come on here and posted their thoughts and opinions of course..

You however, have proven and substantiated nothing...

You have simply continued to post rhetoric and postulations and hyperbole as is your usual style of posting.

Your premise has been proven fraudulent.

Semper



posted on Feb, 7 2008 @ 09:51 AM
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So... You debunked me by... "Just because everyone with NHC says they pay less then what a person pays for private insurance and aren't denied unlike people with private insurance doesn't mean its better just because it works and doesn't let people die in the streets."

Also, Mr. Anti Socialism but his entire life is built off of Socialism... Read this.

A day in the life of Joe Republican
www.syrculturalworkers.com...

Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffeepot with water to prepare his morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards.

With his first swallow of water, he takes his daily medication. His medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to insure their safety and that they work as advertised.

All but $10 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance - now Joe gets it too.

He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some crybaby liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained.

Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air.

He walks to the subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work. It saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his workday. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these working standards.

Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, he'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some stupid liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

It's noontime and Joe needs to make a bank deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and his below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his lifetime.

Joe is home from work. He plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive. His car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards.

He arrives at his boyhood home. His was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electricity until some big-government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification.

He is happy to see his father, who is now retired. His father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to.

Joe gets back in his car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't mention that the beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day. Joe agrees: "We don't need those big-government liberals ruining our lives! After all, I'm a self-made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have."



posted on Feb, 7 2008 @ 01:04 PM
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Originally posted by HHH Is King...The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't mention that the beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day.


A star for you, HHH. That little essay says it all. And the one question I don't see answered by the dittoheads is: "If you can't afford universal health care, how the hell can you afford your wars? Good post.



posted on Feb, 7 2008 @ 07:18 PM
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You mean like how one month in Iraq would have paid 10 years for the SCHIP program for 4million children? But hey, what are 4million US Children's lives when you can kill more Iraqi Children and US Troops?

Hell, without Iraq War we'd probably have caught Osama by now as they would have been in Afganistan, the country that attacked us and was a threat, and that war would have been over and we'd have a good trillion dollars left to spend.

Also, another little mini essay

Joe Republican enjoys his weekends, something the evil liberals gave him off.

On Friday night he drives out on the government cared for roads. Without the evil taxes the liberals force him to pay he'd be dealing with dirt roads, if lucky enough to have that much.

At the bar he sees a good looking woman. The only reason she is able to be at the bar is because the liberals decided she should have the same rights as a man. The right to vote, the right to work to make money to spend on the weekend, and the right to leave the house without a man. Unlike the republicans who, as one judge appointed by Bush who wrote a book on the subject, would have her at home barefoot and pregnant not allowed to use any form of birth control or have any choice in her life like going to college.

The morning after Joe relaxes in his home. His home that is protected from fire by fire fighters, evil socialists paid with his taxes. His home is protected from crime by police officers, the evil socialists paid with his taxes.

The next day on Sunday he goes to his friends Carl's house to watch the game. His friend Carl, an African American, is able to own his home, big screen TV, and a free life because of evil big government civil liberty freaks like Lincoln thought they should be considered and treated as human. Unlike the state rights civil liberty smivil liberty folks in the GOP who are supported by groups like KKK and CCC and WKK.

That night as Joe is driving home he is pulled over after going left of center. He gives a breathalizer test and is found to be too drunk to drive and taken to local jail. He is not tortured, beaten, raped, like in some countries because liberals thought that a man, and woman, would have rights after committing a crime. He is given a court appointed lawyer to represent him and after his day in court is given a fine and 30 hours of community service.

As Joe curses the police and how his taxes pay them he doesn't realize the police doing their job saved his life and the life of a family driving in a mini van.



posted on Feb, 7 2008 @ 10:03 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


Simple..

I support the war in Iraq...

I do NOT support my money going to people like HHH that apparently want me to pay for their existence..

Let people like that get off their rears and pay for their own health care, or draw welfare and get it for free...

That's the thing you people seem to be missing here...

People like HHH that don't want to pay their own way, have a way out.... Quit work (If they have a job) and go on Welfare and Medicaid.. Then you get the full use of the health care system for NOTHING at all and can spend the rest of the time you don't spend sucking off the system, on here complaining because the ones that work hard and make a living don't want to pay anymore than we already do...

You want free health care?

We already have it... Wake Up...

Medicaid costs NOTHING, ZILCH, 0, so if you want free health care, go get on it...

I pay for that too...

So realistically the US has the best of both worlds.. Free Market Health Care for those like me that want to work and succeed, and Free Medicaid for people like HHH...

Now, I'm not saying I enjoy paying for lazy people, not at all, but I know there is a small percentage of people that really need it and can't afford the money to buy a computer and sit here all day complaining because some one that works hard and wants to better themselves wont pay even more for them. Sure there are those truly needy people, but most of them are not buying PC's and complaining...

Then there are those that just want someone to pay for their laziness, their unwillingness to get up and go make something of themselves. All they want to do is sit behind their anonymous keyboards and make up threads, using unsubstantiated innuendo and hyperbole, trying again, to get someone to pay for their lives...

Sorry...

Most of us will always give a hand up, but this thread is all about a hand out, and if he can afford a PC, why does he want my money?

Semper



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 07:01 AM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
People like HHH that don't want to pay their own way, have a way out.... Quit work (If they have a job) and go on Welfare and Medicaid.. Then you get the full use of the health care system for NOTHING at all and can spend the rest of the time you don't spend sucking off the system, on here complaining because the ones that work hard and make a living don't want to pay anymore than we already do...


This is a straight straw man proposal you lay out here, based on your premise that Universal Health Care is somehow wrong in the first place and anybody who subscribes to it is a leech. If the paradigm shifts to consider it a basic human right in a civilized society...which it is under the Canada Health Act...then the perception changes. Besides, the monies to pay for it are not pulled out of our butts during rectal exams (hope you're getting yours, Semper), they come from an insurance plan set up on a not-for-profit basis, financed by individual employer/employee deductions. Remove the...what...1/3 profit margin of privatised health, and everybody gets covered. (these are knucklehead math...all figures are approximate, eh?)

So...you can't then slag the concept because the government is incapable of running it. If they don't, throw their butts out until they get the message. It may not be overnight, but it'll be a gift for succeeding generations, as it has been here. So Semper et al, I think you're wrong...but may you personally be spared catastrophic convincing.



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 07:30 AM
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reply to post by semperfortis
 


I understand why you oppose socialized healthcare, and frankly I agree, there are parasites that suck the system dry because they refuse to work and better themselves. Ive seen it in my country and im sure you, in your field of work, have seen it as well.

But as you say, those that really need it remain annonomous; voiceless because they A) do not have the time to sit here and type out a plea for help and B) cannot afford the basics to do so.

It is for those people that I advocate free and easily accessable healthcare. Because I believe, there are more hard working, decent people who want to contribute to our culture and society, that fall through the cracks of the widenning gap between rich and poor, than there are people that abuse the system.

I work 9 hours a day to help support my household (instead of going to school for further education) because my mother is too sick to work. We are not sucking the welfare teet dry, nor are we sitting back waiting for a hand-out. But I know there may come a day when her savings are gone, and the job i work is no longer enough to support us, and we may be one of those families that looses their house and slips through the cracks. Im proud to know that my tax dollars that are being removed from my current cheque's are supporting people just like me. And it makes me sick to think that some conservative (harper) wants to rob the people of something that was fought for in the name of those that could not speak for themselves.

Semper, I respect you and your opinions. You are very articulate, you walk with your head held high, and you de finately dont back down. I think we are all at an impass with this issue, and considering the rate of poverty is growing at a faster rate then the worlds population, I hope that one day, you or your children never find yourself unable to afford private insurance and unable to use medicaid in its disected form.



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 08:18 AM
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I hope that one day, you or your children never find yourself unable to afford private insurance and unable to use medicaid in its disected form.


Thank you for that however,

My sister has been on Medicaid in one form or another for most of her adult life. I help all that I can, but she is as independent in her own way as I am in mine.

That is why I can speak with conviction, experience and knowledge about the system. Her health care is as good as mine and I have some of the best money can buy....

The Medicaid system provides all that a reasonable persons needs including Cancer Screenings and complete and free coverage for all procedures..

I have lived it with her, so I know it to be a fact and not opinion, supposition and hyperbole that some seem content to fall for.

Semper

Edit to add..

I will always provide for myself and like my Granny that raised me, I will NEVER leach off of another or the system. I have provided for any catastrophes that may occur as every one of us should. This is of course taking into account the ones that CAN NOT, not WILL NOT, provide and those should be on Medicaid and my money should go to them.

S

[edit on 2/8/2008 by semperfortis]



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 09:09 AM
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reply to post by semperfortis
 


As more people in the middle class are falling into poverty, and those in poverty are falling into desperate poverty, the strain on the current system will only increase. With the propositions to freeze medicaid and the looming fear that medicaid will once agian take a huge budget cut, do you feel that the system will be able to support the people it was intended to?



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 09:41 AM
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Originally posted by InSpiteOf
With the propositions to freeze medicaid and the looming fear that medicaid will once agian take a huge budget cut, do you (Semper) feel that the system will be able to support the people it was intended to?


Unless I'm mistaken, I believe Semper's point to be that he doen't particularly care.

But in his particularly Darwinian world...while he may remain alwaysbrave, he won't necessarily be alwaysstrong. That's when compassion will seem less of a lilly-livered liberal concept and more of a virtue.

Either that or he'll be fortunate enough to be taken out behind the barn as soon as others deem him useless. Let's hope he'll be in agreement.

Satis. Absum!



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 10:03 AM
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I do...

As the "definition" of poverty, ie. the amount one must earn to qualify for poverty, is both redefined and ambiguous..

By government standards, which most go by, poverty levels increase far past the inflation level every year... The numbers you quote are somewhat skewed as you will see..

As of 2008, the poverty level is listed as $10,400.00 per year for a single person living alone or filing single issue taxes.... KEY HERE IS THIS...
Poverty Guidelines

This includes all COLLEGE STUDENTS.....

Way to skew the numbers....

Also consider this..

The Census Bureau does NOT, that's NOT FOLKS, consider Housing Subsidies in their computations.... !!!!!
Census

This means if the average rental unit in my area is say... 600.00 per month or 7,200.00 per year, they just get that free while I pay my 1200.00 a month or 14,400.00 a year and that IS figured in my income... IS FOLKS...

Look I'm not saying there are not poor people out there, of course there are. I deal with the Homeless almost on a daily basis... I'm saying they skew the numbers in order to touch the bleeding hearts and get more money to fund more social programs...

Instead they should be using that money to clean up the programs and get the "just lazy" people off of them and back to work.

Simple fact is this..

The MAJORITY of people that are outspoken about wanting "us" the working class, to give them our money, to fund their welfare programs, are abusers.. Point in fact... I grew up terrible poor, although my Granny would NEVER have accepted welfare, I know many that did and they are all quiet unassuming and grateful for what they have. NOT loud arrogant and demanding that I pay for their laziness like the OP suggests.

Be good ATSers and look past the numbers others throw at you and get the real facts...

Here are some interesting facts..


In those states that did maintain detailed statistics, fraud was discovered in upwards of 69 percent of the investigations conducted with total annual discovered fraud amounts ranging from $10,000 to over $1 million.

Twenty-three relied on other state statutes to address criminal activity. Thirty-three states pursued administrative recovery of overpayments of child care assistance to recipients, although some could only collect through voluntary repayments, and four were capable of recovering from providers through a reduction in subsequent payments.

one state penalized only providers but not recipients and the remainder had no penalty provisions or relied on criminal or civil restitution procedures.

A Rochester, New York woman, whom I prosecuted, claimed that her brother was caring for her 11 children. Payments were sent in her brother’s name to her mother’s address. The brother, in fact, had been incarcerated for over 10 years on a rape conviction and her husband was, in fact residing in the household and caring for the children. The loss amount was limited to $77,000 because agency records failed to cover the entire period of the fraud. The illegally obtained money made the client ineligible for the food stamps the family received and the Section 8 housing in which they resided.

Child Care Assistance has been described by one of our member investigators as "the new pot of gold" in welfare fraud.


Child Welfare Fraud

That is JUST Child Welfare Fraud... 69 Percent

Food Stamps, AFDC, SSI, etc all have similar numbers of fraud and abuse..

I have provided some, but the statistics are staggering if one is willing to open their eyes and look..

Now add to that some lazy people want to put MORE welfare, MORE subsidizing into the system and have mentioned not ONE THING about fixing that which is being abused...

Just another case of people wanting something for nothing..

Semper



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 10:06 AM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


Your ad hominem attack on my personal business aside.. Again you disregard facts and figures for your, YOUR, conjecture and supposition.

ATS is supposed to be about "Deny Ignorance" that means, in case you did not know, facts and figures are necessary for a valid argument. Your opinion is just that and only valid to you as I have proven, with facts and figures, you are wrong.

Semper



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 10:07 AM
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With the propositions to freeze medicaid and the looming fear that medicaid will once agian take a huge budget cut, do you (Semper) feel that the system will be able to support the people it was intended to?


Is the Budget Cut 69%?

I will guarantee you it is not even a large fraction of that number....

So the cut wont even touch the percentage of abuse..

Therefor your argument is invalid on it's face..

Semper



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 10:18 AM
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i just want to say that i'll take my private health insurance over a gov't plan any day. my premiums are high but i only pay a portion of it - my employer pays the rest. we spent $350 to have a baby. doc visits are $15. meds are $10. now tell me why i should be in favor of a gov't plan.

sure not everyone has access to good coverage, but i think i should only have to pay into the gov't program if i want to use their plan for coverage - just like any other insurance company. i'll be a little miffed if i end up paying more taxes to involuntarily fund someone else's health care. i already pay to let people sit on their asses at home and spend their welfare checks on crap.

when i was having a hard time, would the gov't help me and my wife? no, i made JUST enough money to put me over the threshold for assistance. i had 2 jobs and was going to school and we were failing to make ends meet.

[edit on 8-2-2008 by an0maly33]



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 10:18 AM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
Instead they should be using that money to clean up the programs and get the "just lazy" people off of them and back to work.


No argument there. But I dont think freezing funding, or cutting funding to what I would consider essential programs as an answer either.

Perhaps the middle ground would be to take some of those billions doled out in corporate welfare and use it to overhaul the welfare system? But then the question still remains, how do you stop people from abusing the system?

I do not believe the answer is simply to stop funding the system in order to force people back to work. Too many people that depend on the system would be left in dire straights, and would probably make your job a hell of alot harder, with many more turning to drugs, prostitution, and crime.



The MAJORITY of people that are outspoken about wanting "us" the working class, to give them our money, to fund their welfare programs, are abusers..


Your point on this part aside, I am rather outspoke about this issue, at least here in Canada, and so are many of my friends, while none of us enjoy 7 days a week off on welfare...



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 10:22 AM
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reply to post by semperfortis
 


That was actually more of question, asking for your opinion, and not an argument for increased welfare funding.

Even if the budget cut is say, 4%, who do you think will be affected most? Those that live in desperate poverty and need the care, or those that sit on their ass all day collecting a check??



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 10:27 AM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
Your ad hominem attack on my personal business aside.. Again you disregard facts and figures for your, YOUR, conjecture and supposition.


No, I am disregarding the the justifications that you produce to bolster your Hobbesian vision of what constitutes civilized society. Now, I'm off for one of my free medical appointments for which I have happily worked the better part of a life time. Stay well, Dude cuz the wolves are alwys close at hand.



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 10:29 AM
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reply to post by InSpiteOf
 


I'm not advocating the cessation of funding for the system.. Not at all..

My contention is the "system" is fine... Just put the money you need to "Start" a welfare health plan, and fix the abuse...

I'm betting that if you apply the 69% abuse rate monies to fix the abuse, there will be more than enough money to provide adequate health care to those that truly need it..

Make the others get up off their keyboards and get a job...

My hypothesis in this is due in part to the "I want it now" generation. Most jobs require that you work for a period of time before they start handing out health benefits. I don't blame them for wanting to ensure that you hang around and become valuable before they put their money on the line for you.

Just good business practice.

Yet people want it NOW... SO they listen to the scare tactics and skewed numbers and people like the OP that know of nothing else, and all of a sudden they are hooked.. All of a sudden the "YOU OWE ME CAUSE YOU MAKE MONEY" does not sound as stupid as it should.

What is it with the "I'm owed health care cause I live here" BS???

You are NOT owed anything. You should have to work for what you get and if you don't want to work, choosing instead to sit here authoring threads, trying to get someone to pay your way, I don't personally care of you starve. It's all the individual choice.

I choose to get up at 5am every day, put on a uniform and go enforce the law. MY CHOICE..

Others choose to complain that someone is not giving them something for free and not work.. THEIR CHOICE..

Semper





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