Opponents Of National Health Care Explain Why

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posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 10:32 AM
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Originally posted by an0maly33 when i was having a hard time, would the gov't help me and my wife? no, i made JUST enough money to put me over the threshold for assistance. i had 2 jobs and was going to school and we were failing to make ends meet.


So I'm guessing that UHC might have helped out a little...I can't quite reconcile this with a "I got mine now, screw the rest of you" attitude.




posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 10:32 AM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


Just remember when you get really sick, and have to come here to get adequate care, keep my email handy...

I'll be glad to sponsor you here for some REAL medical treatment...

I heard that a medical center in upstate NY, had over 80% Canadians as patients.. Wonder why?

You go get your "free" health care.. I'll stick with working for what I get and not having to wait for a handout..

Semper



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 10:42 AM
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reply to post by semperfortis
 


Well to be honest, we do work and pay for our healthcare, it comes out of our pay every week, two-weeks, month, or whatever your pay period is. Do you happen to know where those 80% Canadians came from, as in, what province?

Also, I wouldnt mind you answer this question:


Even if the budget cut is say, 4%, who do you think will be affected most? Those that live in desperate poverty and need the care, or those that sit on their ass all day collecting a check?



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 10:43 AM
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Look...

As was said before, this is an impasse...

The way it stands is this..

I enjoy working for a living. I also enjoy spending what I make.

I have no real problems with taxes as long as they go to what they are supposed to be going for.

I don't care if some people want a hand out, welfare, "welfare healthcare" or whatever.

I do have a problem with someone TELLING me I have to pay for it because some are too lazy to work for it.

If you do not mind going to get free "welfare Healthcare", than go... I would just as soon die as not support myself. I am not different than my granny...

I'll dig ditches, (I have), flip burgers (I have) or anything I need to in order to survive and not have someone else pay my way.

If accepting welfare does not bother you.. Go for it... Just don't expect me to roll over because some bleeding heart liberal says I should..

I have shown you the abuse of the system stats..

I have shown you the Canadian Healthcare at it's finest as people flock to the US to get good care..

I have accepted that some of you don't care about working for what you get...

So, I guess it's all been said...

But never doubt that no matter what you call it.. Welfare is welfare and a hand out is a hand out and a dead beat is a dead beat..

Semper



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 10:44 AM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


I think the attitude is a cultural thing. In my mind, population size has a lot to do with it. The US has a hell of a lot more people than we do, and every citizen feels the American Dream is their entitlement. Its not hard to envision how the "Eat the Meek" mentality came about...



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 10:47 AM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


Just remember when you get really sick, and have to come here to get adequate care, keep my email handy...


Actually, I am really sick, and I am getting tens of thousands of dollars of cutting -edge (excuse that phrase!) treatment fast and free. Downtown Toronto.



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 10:51 AM
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Even if the budget cut is say, 4%, who do you think will be affected most? Those that live in desperate poverty and need the care, or those that sit on their ass all day collecting a check?


I don't think it will affect anyone if we begin to lose the bleeding heart syndrome and stop the 69% abuse rate...

4% cut of a multi billion dollar program is nothing...

Also understand this...

THEY CAN NOT CUT MEDICAID... That is a 100% free program for those that qualify and those that fall into the catagory of not being able to afford healthcare...

Costs nothing and 4% of nothing is nothing...

Let us not forget that pesky little law that FORBIDS any hospital from refusing any treatment that may be detrimental to the patients well being regardless of the ability to pay.... Again COST NOTHING

We are discussing "Welfare Health Care" here right?

As for what province, I would guess the one that borders upstate NY... I'll look for the link, I believe it was around Niagara..

Semper



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 11:13 AM
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Some more interesting statistics to ponder..


Last August, they voted Brian Day president of their national association. A former socialist who counts Fidel Castro as a personal acquaintance, Day has nevertheless become perhaps the most vocal critic of Canadian public health care, having opened his own private surgery center as a remedy for long waiting lists and then challenged the government to shut him down. “This is a country in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week,” he fumed to the New York Times, “and in which humans can wait two to three years.”

And now even Canadian governments are looking to the private sector to shrink the waiting lists.

In Ontario, where fealty to socialized medicine has always been strong, the government recently hired a private firm to staff a rural hospital’s emergency room.

.

Healthcare

You will of course note the preceding was written by a Doctor..

More interesting tidbits on "Welfare Health Care"


That's why the British National Health Service recently made the pathetic promise to reduce wait times for hospital care to four months.

The wait to see dentists is so long that some Brits pull their own teeth. Dental tools: pliers and vodka.

One hospital tried to save money by not changing bed sheets every day. British papers report that instead of washing them, nurses were encouraged to just turn them over.

Government rationing of health care in Canada is why when Karen Jepp was about to give birth to quadruplets last month, she was told that all the neonatal units she could go to in Canada were too crowded. She flew to Montana to have the babies.

People line up for care; some of them die. That's what happens," Canadian doctor David Gratzer, author of The Cure

Canadians' longer lives are unrelated to heath care. Canadians are less likely to get into accidents or be murdered. Take those factors into account, not to mention obesity, and Americans live longer.

Canadians stuck on waiting lists often pay "medical travel agents" to get to America for treatment. Shirley Healey had a blocked artery that kept her from digesting food. So she hired a middleman to help her get to a hospital in Washington state.
"The doctor said that I would have only had a very few weeks to live," Healey said.

Yet the Canadian government calls her surgery "elective."

"The only thing elective about this surgery was I elected to live," she said.

RCPOlitics

As you can clearly see, all is not a pot of gold at the end of the Canadian or British Rainbow as some would expect us to believe..

Semper

Mod Edit: Trimmed down external material

[edit on 2/10/08 by FredT]



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis...As you can clearly see, all is not a pot of gold at the end of the Canadian or British Rainbow as some would expect us to believe..
Semper


Ok, I could go through all your citations about Canada, and explain where they are artificially skewed, but that won't change the discussion as you will always consider UHC to be a handout. Not only is that apples and oranges, but I've hit the point where, once again, I need to invoke my signature line. In closing, I can only say that me, all of my family and all friends think the system is just jim-friggin'-dandeeo, and ultimately that's what counts. Stay well...



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 02:25 PM
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reply to post by JohnnyCanuck
 


I've been called a pig my whole life... Goes with the territory..

So much so I consider it a compliment in most cases, like here..

The logic is infallible, the evidence is there..


Call it what you will.. It remains the same...

Call a pig (To use your inference) a Horse, doesn't make him less of one, just makes the one calling him that look foolish...

Socialized "Welfare Health Care" is nothing more than an expansion of the Welfare State and a furtherance of Socialism. Exactly what the advocates of Socialism want.

Just one more way for the Government to "Care" for it's citizens and not expect them to stand on their own two feet..

That's what the "Failed Experiment" of Socialism is all about isn't it? The Socialist Government knowing what is best for us and providing it?

I get a HARDY HAR HAR laugh at comparing all of the various threads that have a connection on here..

I am especially fond of all the times a poster will talk about the evil government this and the evil government that and in the next breath advocate that same evil government taking over the massive and complicated health care system for this country.
Really does crack me up...

You people really need to pick a side and stick to it..

Either the government is incompetent and or evil, or you trust them with your health...

Funny and sad really...

See I don't think the government is evil or even massively incompetent, I just think that my health is NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS.... I don't want their handouts or welfare or charity or whatever else you choose to call it.

You Canadians especially crack me up in all your out cries of how independent you are.. HAHAHAHAHA

Independent my BUTT.. Every time you get a sniffle, you run to your GOVERNMENT run health facility and let the big ol' government take care of you.. How independent is that?

Independent is standing on your own two feet and not accepting charity or welfare or a handout from your government. Independent is willing paying for those that can not stand on their two feet, but not willing to support every sniffle nose that decides it's too hard to get up and go to work today...

Independent.. HA

You want true independence? look here at those willing to support themselves and not willing to sponge off of those wanting to work...

Semper



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
Independent my BUTT.. Every time you get a sniffle, you run to your GOVERNMENT run health facility and let the big ol' government take care of you.. How independent is that?


How so? Last time I was at the doctor (for myself) was when I fell 9 feet, that was in 2005.



Independent is standing on your own two feet and not accepting charity or welfare or a handout from your government. Independent is willing paying for those that can not stand on their two feet, but not willing to support every sniffle nose that decides it's too hard to get up and go to work today...


When my doctors visit was finished, I returned to work a little over an hour after the incident, to patch the hole I made in the ceiling (by falling threw it) . Out side of going away for vacation, I havent missed a day of work.

I dont see how you can generalize our entire nation because we suffer from some of the same welfare abuses that your country does.

You may see independance as standing on your own two feet, at all times, regardless of the circumstances, its commendable. But everyone in life needs a helping hand at some point, whats the shame in taking that hand to help you get back on your feet?

[edit on 8-2-2008 by InSpiteOf]



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis I've been called a pig my whole life... Goes with the territory..
So much so I consider it a compliment in most cases, like here..


I like cops, and I value their contribution to civilized society. Sometimes the thin blue line is all that demarcates it. Frankly, I'd be proud to see my son join the force.

Need I really say that my signature line is an aphorism?



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 04:24 PM
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Semp isn't independent though. His entire life is based off of socialism, as already pointed out. If it weren't for the liberals and socialists he'd have nothing. No job, no house, no education, nothing.

Anyways, I like he has no problem with HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of dollars given in corporate welfare but a couple million given out in reg welfare? He's ready to riot. Typical Republican.

Also, even better, he says UHC doesn't work, everyone who has it says it does, he claims they are wrong even though they have first hand experience because he has Rush The Pill Limbaugh saying it won't work even though it does work in every other country that has it.

And again, what makes more sense, spend 5,000 to be denied and die or 500 to be healed? What costs more, 5,000 and your life or 500 and being saved?



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 06:31 PM
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reply to post by HHH Is King
 



Semp isn't independent though. His entire life is based off of socialism,


As I have PROVEN to you that is a LIE when do you plan on discontinuing your fabrication and falsehoods?

How can anyone ever believe anything you ever say when all you do is continue to lie about another member?

As apparently you could not follow what I was saying before, I will break it down to a very simple level...

Campus Police are paid from the budget of the individual University or College and are not part of the tax base...

Ports Authority Police are paid from the profits the ports make and not part of the tax base.

Public Service Authority Police are State Law Enforcement Agents that are paid from the profits of the PSA and not part of the tax base.

Now I can not make it any more simple, so if you can't understand that, U2U me and I can show you our charter, but it has some pretty big words in it. You definitely wont get it, but I'll try just to get you to stop with the lies.

Semper



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 06:38 PM
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reply to post by HHH Is King
 



Anyways, I like he has no problem with HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of dollars given in corporate welfare but a couple million given out in reg welfare?


Supportive evidence or shall we consider this debunked as well?


he claims they are wrong


Again you are either not following the conversation, or you are telling an outright lie. I have provided Proof, Links and substantive evidence that they are wrong. I know there are some big words in there, but do try and follow...


does work in every other country that has it


It really has to be the big words....SHEESH...

I have again, provided proof that it is NOT working in many countries...

DO you even read your own threads?


And again, what makes more sense, spend 5,000 to be denied and die or 500 to be healed? What costs more, 5,000 and your life or 500 and being saved?


You seem to be stuck quoting these particular numbers. Are they precious to you in some way? You have NO PROOF they are accurate, you have not answered even one question with any PROOF, you my friend are again..
Debunked...

Semper



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 07:26 PM
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This is a timely topic to discuss, given the fact that there is a very real chance that the next POTUS will advocate socialized medicine. Keeping the discussion on topic and away from personal attacks is highly desirable.

Who was it that said, "If you think that health care is expensive now, just wait till it's free"?



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 07:39 PM
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JSO,

You are correct of course and I apologize for my tone in my previous posts...

As was stated before, this has reached an impasse and I must agree to disagree...

With that said..

Semper



posted on Feb, 8 2008 @ 08:04 PM
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Ok folks; I realize that this is an emotional topic but let's refrain from any further personnal attacks on other members. Thanks.



posted on Feb, 9 2008 @ 12:00 AM
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Semp, you are less independent then I am. At least a private company pays me, unlike you who gets your paycheck from taxes, socialism.

Also, I make the same quote because its true. As said from our neighbors from the north UHC works, very well, for less then private insurance. Or do you know better then the people who have it and use it?



posted on Feb, 9 2008 @ 02:03 PM
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This is interesting....

I wonder who is going to pick up the premiums?

Socialized medicine?

www.abovetopsecret.com...





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