Opponents Of National Health Care Explain Why

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posted on Feb, 4 2008 @ 11:22 AM
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I don't get it. You would rather spend thousands of dollars on a private insruance company so you can be denied and die. You would rather spend 5,000 dollars to be told no, we won't cover that, and die. You would rather be kicked out of the hospital, die, in the streets, after paying thousands of dollars. You would rather your entire family die because you spent 5,000 dollars on insurance that oops, because of clause A of section C under file 12W88H it means they don't cover things that happen after 1am on every third saturday.

Then spend 500 dollars on taxes to be told yes, we will heal you and save your life. Why?

Why would you rather sit and watch your child die while the insurance company goes. "Hey, sorry, that was pre existing now give us more money so we can NOT cover your wife after that car accident."? Are you just sadists or dumb dumbs?

[edit on 4-2-2008 by HHH Is King]




posted on Feb, 4 2008 @ 12:23 PM
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It's total crap that insurance providers play their legaleze games true. It's also very sad that the consumer doesn't feel the need to read the fine print before buying a policy. If a person does read the fine print and consciously chooses not to have a certain kind of coverage then so be it.

It's also sad that around the world socialized systems are making little legaleze rules of their own to deny care to smokers, the obese, chronically ill, elderly, etc...

I would definitely agree that there are problems with private insurance and the consumers ignorance. But I will not agree that socialized medicine is some magic "just pay the fee and you're guaranteed care" system.

Read a little:
www.angelfire.com...

www.cato.org...

www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov...

Then there's thinking about the next generation. Won't somebody think of the children? The UK system is struggling to fund itself and it's been what, about 50 years? They could pump every dollar of their GDP into their health care and health care alone and in another 50 years they'll be right back to where they are today holding meetings about who to deny care for "the greater good." Then what of the kids and grandkids of these people? The current generation may benefit from "free" medicine but each generation hence will have to live knowing that certain people will not get the care they need even though they all must pay into it. The end of that slippery slope is the peasants funding the care of the oligarchs.

Why is the business of health care tourism in Canada growing so fast?
www.ipi.org...

Why has Canada just recently begun to permit private "charter" clinics?
www.nytimes.com...

Neither system is perfect. I happen to like the freedom to shop and pay for the coverage that suits me and I accept full responsibility for not paying for maternity coverage should I become pregnant (I have a penis so the chance is pretty slim) and I detest the notion that my earned wages should go to support the maternity of some junkie prostitute or to salve the open sores on a gigolos penis, or to transplant a new liver into a drunk or to strap a nebulizer to the chair of a lifelong smoker with COPD even if as you claim it would cost me less to do so.



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 12:05 PM
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Still doesn't explain why they'd rather spend 5,000 on a private insurance to watch their child die then 500 on taxes to watch them, be healed. It doesn't explain why they would rather watch their wife/husband wither away on the hospital bed after spending 6 paychecks instead of watching their wife/husband be healed after spending half a paycheck.

Also, one of the opponents says its "evil socialism". But funny enough he's a cop, his entire life is based off of socialism. It isn't a private company paying him its the evil socialist tax money that we pay that pays him. Of course then a lot of that goes to a private insurance company so when he is shot on the job he dies because the company won't cover the expense to pull the bullet out.



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 12:15 PM
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I think it is blindingly evident that the federal government is incapable of managing anything. The Dept of Education is a joke and has done nothing but undermine education in this country --- despite their intentions. The FDA admits they cannot inspect a fraction of the food and drugs in the country. FEMA is a flaming cluster buck. The CIA evidently uses a majic 8-ball when assessing intelligence data given their recent track record. And the Fed? Well, GWB told us just a few months ago that the housing market would have a 'soft landing', that the economy was fundamentally strong and that the job market was great. Now, all of a sudden, as if it jumped out from behind a tree the economy is in near-collapse. Were they lying to us or just clueless? The Pentagon has been assailed for their management of the wars. And on... and on.

Face it, the feds are in no position to manage a 'universal health care system'. Frankly, they can't even manage themselves. Everything they touch turns to dog-doo. Look at the fraud and waste in medicare/medicaid.

The system needs to be care provider patient. No HMO's, no middle men. Every layer you add-on increases the expense to the patient and presents a window for fraud/waste.



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 01:02 PM
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reply to post by HHH Is King
 


It's nice to still see people completely ignoring responses to go on and just repeat their original post. Really, it is.

Spending 5K to die or 500 to live is a ridiculous situation. It requires an impossible situation to exist in which every private insurance holder is destined to die of refused care. That doesn't happen. It also requires that every person under socialized medicine is cured. That doesn't happen.

And who is this "other opponent?" Are you dragging old posts from a dead thread into this one? Why waste peoples time and web space? Just go back and rehash the old thread is you want to continue a pointless back and forth with this "other opponent."

And what cop? I'm not a cop. Is jtma508 a cop?

You don't want an answer. You obviously don't want to bother with basic research. You just want to shout and yell until some sucker gets dragged in and subjects himself to the mindless abuse that threads like this create.

You get to be the brick wall incapable of reason and unwilling to understand while the fools get tricked into lining up to argue with the brick wall.

Have fun and I hope these "other opponents" find you. You seem to miss them dearly.



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 02:27 PM
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Several reasons why I am opposed to government run/socialized health care:

1) First and foremost, the job of the government is not to provide health care, the function of government is to provide for the defense of the people and state (the military) and to provide for the existence of a judicial system and law enforcement.

2) If the government cant even handle disaster relief after Hurricane Katrina or the simple task of securing our borders how is it that I can expect them to handle my health care?

3) Perhaps most importantly, the cost. We have over 300 million people in the US. That is more then FIVE times the population of the United Kingdom. We have more people in New York City and Long Island alone then in all of Canada. Our taxes are already through the roof with the existing social programs (SS takes up over 40% of our federal taxes) so tell me, where do we find all this money that will be necessary to fund healthcare for 300 million + people?



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 02:43 PM
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Call it socialized medicine if you want but I want the same kind of health care that the President, Congressmen and Representives enjoy at the expense of my tax dollars.

What's good enough for them, should be good enough for the rest of the citizens.

Why should our elected officials enjoy preferential treatment at my expense? Their salary is double mine anyway.

I wouldn't mind paying higher taxes for universal healthcare as my HMO bill is $800 a month, plus $50 copay and poor coverage at that. I'll wager my taxes would be cheaper than my current Health Insurance.



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 07:01 PM
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QFT!

Whaa, my union offers health care, if I want a good 900dollars docked out of my paycheck a year for very very little basic coverage. Pretty much if you don't go in between 11:30-12:22 on a weekday to an approved hospital you aren't covered. And even then they only cover maybe a nurse looking you over.

And I love the congressmen saying socialist healthcare is evil but as you said they enjoy socialist healthcare.



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 07:05 PM
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Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
reply to post by HHH Is King
 


And what cop? I'm not a cop. Is jtma508 a cop?


No, Semp is a cop.

Also, actually talk to people from countries with NHC? All the Canuks I've talked to said America is horrible. Letting people die of stuff covered by Canadian healthcare. And yet the Canuks aren't all broke from having to spend that extra whole 400 on taxes. Sure that's probably because they aren't spending thousands on medical insurance...



posted on Feb, 5 2008 @ 10:54 PM
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Well again I was mentioned in one of this posters threads, so I guess I was invited..

HHH do ya love me? Or just can't stop talkin' about me?

I would appreciate it if you would answer these small questions about your thread..


Then spend 500 dollars on taxes


Where did you get this figure? Source please, not just your opinion, the SOURCE.


You would rather your entire family die because you spent 5,000 dollars on insurance that oops, because of clause A of section C under file 12W88H


Again, FACTUAL SOURCE Please?

Or is this all just "stuff" you made up?


You would rather spend thousands of dollars on a private insruance company so you can be denied and die.


Please, again, supportive links or researched references. (You did mean INSURANCE didn't you?)


Still doesn't explain why they'd rather spend 5,000 on a private insurance to watch their child die then 500 on taxes to watch them, be healed.


AGAIN, Source for your figures or admit you made them up.


after spending 6 paychecks instead of watching their wife/husband be healed after spending half a paycheck.


Please reference the amount of the paycheck that would be required to satisfy your scenario here. Or admit it is made up.


he is shot on the job he dies because the company won't cover the expense to pull the bullet out.


Actually when I was shot, they pulled the bullet out quite nicely.

Please reference the time I died with proof of my demise, or admit you made this up too.


All the Canuks I've talked to said America is horrible.


Like these?

Mountain-bike enthusiast Suzanne Aucoin had to fight more than her Stage IV colon cancer. Her doctor suggested Erbitux—a proven cancer drug that targets cancer cells exclusively,

Yet another example of the callous hand of managed care, depriving someone of needed medical help, right? Guess again. Erbitux is standard treatment, covered by insurance companies—in the United States. Aucoin lives in Ontario, Canada.

City Journal
OUCH

Here are some more tidbits...



1. it’s not only pregnant women, like the one who recently had to drive to Montana to have her baby, who cross into the U.S. on a daily basis seeking health care.

2. Why is the hip replacement center of Canada in Ohio–at the Cleveland Clinic, where 10% of its international patients are Canadians … Why is Brain and Spine Center in Buffalo serving about 10 border-crossing Canadians a week?

3. Number of Canadians on waiting lists for referrals to specialists or for medical services–875,000.

It would appear that Canadians with sufficient financial means are seeking medical treatment in a country where such waiting lists exist only in the the fond dreams of single-payer advocates.

And what about the Canadians who don’t have the money to come here for care? I guess they just pray that their illnesses don’t kill them before the vaunted Canadian system can fit them in.

4. The Jepps drove 325 miles to Great Falls for the births because hospitals in Calgary were at capacity.

Health Care BS
OUCH


controlled territory in the far Arctic North, revealed a rate of lung infections of infants of 484 per thousand-nearly 50 percent. Almost all of the children are Inuit. This set off enormous, renewed debate over the poverty and inadequate health care access of Canada's indigenous peoples.

World Prout
OUCH


In Canada, we have very few standards of clinical practice and no clinical constraints on physicians. Although physicians' fees are set, they can perform a procedure as many times as they wish, which can encourage them to overuse the system. The same is true with laboratory tests. This is a big problem, and since we don't measure health care as well as Americans do, we're in trouble in terms of efficiency.

All Business
OUCH


h e re ’s no denying that Canada s u ffers from a lack of high-tech equip-
ment, not just compared to the United States but to all advanced countries.
In 1999, Canada, for example, had only 2.5 magnetic resonance imaging
(MRI) units per million people. And that same year when my mother was
s u ffering from dizzy spells in Va n c o u v e r, she was told that because of her age she could never have an MRI and she wait-
ed six months for a CT scan. Mean-while in San Francisco, my cat got an
MRI on the very day she needed it.

Northern Exposure
WOW, Got to love the Cat...

Well folks there were 918,000 Google entries about people leaving Canada to come here to get adequate health care, I wont bore you with the rest, I will ask HHH to please provide PROOF of his numbers and allegations as I have..

Look HHH, it's the little [ ex] thingys I have in my post, that and the little things you click on that take you to another page.. They are called LINKS..Proof in other words...

The failure of HHH to provide the proof of his numbers and allegations should result in the DEBUNKING of another thread..

Thank you all for your time..

Oh just a note...

You say I work in a socialistic job structure. AT least that is what I got from your obscure post.

Answer me this..

Who pays..

Campus Police?
Ports Authority?
State Public Service Authority?

Taxes?...... da.. da.. da.. da.. da.. da.. da... BUZZZZZZZ

WRONG!!!! Again my friend...

All such Law Enforcement are paid through the earnings of the particular organization and not associated with TAX dollars at all... The Public Service Authority in particular works with Homeland Security and carries State Authority to investigate criminal activity throughout the state and to assist other states in certain more heinous criminal investigations. They are paid 100% through the economic structure of the PSA..

Darn it!

DEBUNKED AGAIN

Semper



posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 05:55 AM
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Semp, please tell me most of that was sarcasm and you aren't really that uh, well, duh.

We don't know how much a NHC tax will cost becaus you'd rather spend thousands of dollars on private insurance to be told no, we won't cover that. It is an example, or are you that much of a hack?

Geesh, for someone who's entire life is based off of a living from that evil socialism you sure hate it. I guess you give all that money back huh since it is evil socialism paying you.



posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 06:53 AM
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DEBUNKED

As expected folks, HHH failed to provide any proof of his allegations or supporting links or references for his numbers.

Again this has been proven to be hyperbole and supposition, totally without merit.

HHH even again referenced me working in a Socialist based system when I have PROVEN that is not the case.

(HHH you really need to stop inviting me into your threads if your not going to post factual information)

Again Folks..

No Basis In Fact

Semper



posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 09:40 AM
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Originally posted by ChrisF231
so tell me, where do we find all this money that will be necessary to fund healthcare for 300 million + people?


Funny that question doesn't seem to come forward when it's time to invade somebody...I guess it's all about priorities.



posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 10:27 AM
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reply to post by semperfortis
 


A few points on your post.

While you raise very valid concerns about the course of socialized healthcare in Canada, for every one of those 918,000 google entries on Canadians leaving for healthcare (assuming there are no duplicate entries) there are equal (if not more) success stories that are not reported.

My mother is very sick, in fact, she is in palative care. If it was not for the healthcare system,, she would be dead. We could not afford the insurance, nor the medical bills (in spite of working our asses off for years) Nor could we afford the visiting nurse, medications, disposal of medical wastes, and numerous check-ups she needs to go through.

As thisguyrightthere said in the begging of this thread, neither private nor public systems are perfect. In a perfect world, it would be a mix of both, without one undermining the other (as is theorized will happen when this two tier fiasco plays out)

The second point I wanted to make was that one reason so many Canadians are leaving this country to get care in the US is because of 1) underfunding due to budget cut backs and 2) doctors and nurses leaving Canada for a more lucrative (that is not to say that in Canada you cannot make a good living in the medical profession, you can just make a hell of a lot more in the private sector than you can in the public) job in the US.



[edit on 6-2-2008 by InSpiteOf]



posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by InSpiteOf...one reason so many Canadians are leaving this country to get care in the US is because of 1) underfunding due to budget cut backs...


And interestingly enough, it was the party of privatization...the Tories... that made the cut-backs.

I'm in cancer treatment right now. I'm getting first-class treatment and all it's costing me is parking....well, beyond the $500 or so the province charges me for OHIP, anyway.



posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 10:52 AM
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Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
And interestingly enough, it was the party of privatization...the Tories... that made the cut-backs.


Ya, shocking isnt it.

Im willing to bet that the cash that was taken out of our healthcare and educational systems went into corporate welfare.

Which is the ironic part of it all. While many US citizens detest socialism, welfare, and socialized healthcare, they fail to see the corporate welfare system is the REAL threat to their wellbeing, and is REALLY robbing them blind. BILLIONS doled out every year to corporations in the form of land grants, research and development grants, tax loopholes, guarenteed loans, bailouts, etc. While Joe Somebody, who is a CEO of say Exxon, touts the personal responsibility horn of privatization, he feeds daily at the public troff.



I'm in cancer treatment right now. I'm getting first-class treatment and all it's costing me is parking....well, beyond the $500 or so the province charges me for OHIP, anyway.


I will gladly let those parasites take some cash out of my cheque every week knowning it goes to help people like my mother and yourself.


apc

posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 01:15 PM
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National Health Care is a form of welfare. HHH Is King believes those on welfare are owned by the government. Funny thing is, when it comes to government controlled health care, HHH Is King is right.



posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by apc
National Health Care is a form of welfare.


Oh, that's just dumb! That's like referring to Life Insurance as a sure bet, because sooner or later, everybody wins. Why don't you try living under the system before you make comments like that, so's you have an inkling of what you're talking about.



posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 06:34 PM
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I view it, as with most Socialistic ideas (at least on a grand scale), as a form of soft slavery from which nothing good comes in the long run.

We have, for decades, entrenched the Federal Government in things we shouldn't have. Dept. of Education, Homeland Security, Dept. of Energy, Welfare, Social Security, Federal grants loans and subsidies, and foreign aid (like AIDS money to freakin Africa or bombs for Israel of all things).

Take away logic and insert emotion and these ideals seem good, but I tend to disagree with compulsion more often than not. I don't think it takes any amount of intelligence to admit that humanity has a limit on how large we can build things, namely governments, programs, empires, etc before our corruption overtakes our good nature and collapses it from the inside.

While National Health care might be good for smaller countries (although I'd not choose it), it would be far more dangerous for 300 million and growing.

This soft slavery is being forced to care for the needs of others regardless of how those others choose to live their lives.

I, a young 30 year old with 3 healthy children and a healthy wife would have the burden of the multitudes of fat unhealthy people, many of them with fat children as well, who enjoy fast food at the dinner table more often than not.

Being a state's rights advocate (which seems to work for liberals as well as conservatives in my mind, although many don't see it that way mainly by history), it would be reasonable to have the state decide how it wants to care for it's citizens (notice I didn't say US citizens, since that is less important in our daily lives).

If Massachusetts people wish to have a state health program coupled with (I'd only imagine) a state id system, then so be it. I would not choose to live there but those who sought that would find a home there and have a better handle on citizen oversight, access to elected officials, transparency, etc.

If a state decided to have it's people do for themselves, then so be that as well. National level ideas, while more simple for the basic mind to grasp, does not enable freedom, a basic tenant of America.

We move steadily towards Socialism (although I'd say we are mostly there sadly). No one seems to connect the dots between the worsening healthcare system and the decades of increased government involvement in healthcare.

My thoughts.
KJ



posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 06:58 PM
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Thank you neighbors to the north! See Semp? 500 dollars, like I said to be healed rather then spending 5,000 in health insurance to die.

Also, Corporate Welfare is god, didn't you know? Bush spent more in Corporate Welfare in a year then regular welfare has spent since it was created. But its ok, he's a republican so people like Semp support it.

Also, how is NHC welfare? That's like saying the UPS or roads are welfare because our taxes pay for that.





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