Revelation's beast seems silly

With all the talk about 666, I'd like to point out that recent discoveries of new manuscripts indicate that the actual number was 616, and many scholars believe that it referred to Caligula.
See the following link to details:
www.aymnetwork.com...

Look at the way the affairs of the United States are in right now, we have the UN and other Countries owning our roadways and national parks. The government grabs more and more land and participates in blatant constitutional violations, but when you to talk to joe on the street they do not believe one word of it. I dont think it is that impossible to believe if someone comes in and makes things good for the world for a short period of time how quick the public can be deceived.

So in essence I understand and in a common sense sort of way agree with you, but common sense is not reality and people are fickle, and sorry to say but look at 911, it is such a distant reality, look around you, how many people are flying flags and saying God bless America...Very few because Americans cannot seem to keep their eye on the ball. The world is the same. They will allow them selves to be deceived.

In hindsight look at Edi Amin, Hitler or other Charismatic leaders....were there indications of something being very wrong in the beginning of their rules of power...you bet, but people just went along with everything. How much more power, charisma and deceptive ways would the anti christ be able to wield over the masses....I am sorry I just cant agree with you, on this one.................I do see your point though

Originally posted by Dark Skies

Originally posted by jimbo999
reply to post by xDove007

 

He was 'found' thousands of years ago

'The Beast' simply refers to the Roman Emperor. Any credible biblical scholar will tell you this.

J.

[edit on 29-1-2008 by jimbo999]

Not in the operative verse here. It is a man (the word used is "therion" for beast and "anthropos" for man in Greek)...

Rev 13:18 "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a MAN; and his number [is] Six hundred threescore [and] six."

This implies the "antichrist" who may certainly lead a country or an organization or an army...but the antichrist is a single individual.

If you know of some "credible biblical scholars" who believe as you say, perhaps you can provide names.

I refer you to Chuck Missler,
HERE

Thx.

And WHAT exactly do you think the roman Emperor WAS? He was a man!!

Julius Ceasar was a man. Nero was man. Claudius was - yep, you guessed it - a man.

No mystery here I'm afraid. The 'Beast' is, as scholars have always stated, the roman Emperor - who was also, yes...a man. It was a code word used by the jews and early christians when critcising the Emperor (a crime punishable by death, by the way..). Do the research - it 's all out there, and free to read.
Try Googling 'early christian studies+roman empire' for instance...

J.

[edit on 29-1-2008 by Dark Skies]

[edit on 29-1-2008 by Dark Skies]

[edit on 29-1-2008 by Dark Skies]

reply to post by jimbo999


QUOTE: ''If you know of some "credible biblical scholars" who believe as you say, perhaps you can provide names.

I refer you to Chuck Missler,
HERE ''

You think a guy who has absolutely zero education in this subject (Chuck Missler) is a credible source? This guy is just another whacky religious right-wing bible thumper. I'm sorry - but this is not what I refer to when I say 'credible biblical scholar'. This guy is a 'carpet bagger' basically. A Flim-Flam man with a plastic Jesus in his pocket to sell you...

J.

[edit on 29-1-2008 by jimbo999]

What I say is not truth...it is an imagining

The United States Government along with many others either consist of or work for the Annunaki or Reptilians whom we have been created by.
These are members of societies in the world all with the same goal...World domination.
They pray to there god whom they call "The Beast", this is evident in the ritual which occurs every 28 years and is carried out for one year.
the last ritual carried out was in 1982...the next shall be in 2010.
Revelations was written by a man who could not possibly comprehend or describe accurately what he saw because he saw the world as it is now.
Humans have reptilian tendencies due to the fact that we are the product of their dominion.
Revelations is full of symbols, not entirely factual images, the reptilian mind responds well to symbols.
The beasts in revelations are strange of course, but only to modern conditioned thinking. Was the thought of a large metal bird that carries people (airplane) not just as strange to people in the 1500's.
To someone who does not know it to be technology, and Ipod can be mistaken for a small tablet of light playing the music of angels... or delivering god's message.

As I said in the beginning so I shall say it in the end...This is an imagining
Believe what you will for that is your freedom and your creation, but if you wish to end the game, drop the curtains, and end the illusion, then by all means...do so

reply to post by jimbo999


I am kind of new around here, so forgive me if my ignorance shows. I do not know who this "Chuck" is that is referenced, but there seems to be a debate as to his credentials. I'm OK with that for now. I am curious about who you would consider a credible source for this topic? I intend to compare.

Thanks

Originally posted by jimbo999
reply to post by Elisha4Yah

 

Problem is of course is that this was most likely 'written' by some itinerant jewish or christian priest. Revelation is a work of fiction - historically proven to be so in fact. The research is out there, easy to locate. All you've got to do is actually WANT to know the truth.

J.

I've heard and read a lot of debunking of the book of Revelation and have yet to find anything worthy enough to even give a second thought. I am a skeptical person, believe it or not. But I'm more apt to investigate further when I read opposition against the Scriptures, especially the book of Revelation. My reason; my faith in Yahshua. I defend the truth and will continue to do so, no matter what. The book of Revelation is an unveiling of 'who' the Son of man is. Everything in it is about Him and what He did and what He does, what happens, what is happening, the blessings, the curses and so on. It is mainly intended to be a book of comfort for believers in this world, because while we are in this world we will suffer tribulation.

Here's a thought. How can a person who doesn't believe in Yahshua as Messiah ever think he/she can speak any truth whatsoever about Him? If you don't believe, you are in darkness and His light makes no sense to you. I don't understand all there is to understand in the Scriptures, I'm still here and continue to seek Him in faith and trust. But how can a person who doesn't even believe in Him talk about Him like he/she knows something? A non-believer listens to man and his lies, a believer listens to The Word of Truth, the ONLY one who can save us. Man can save you from choking but you might get hit by a bus an hour later. Yahshua can save you from all things. True life does not lay in the flesh.

Originally posted by DisgustedOne
reply to post by jimbo999

 

I am kind of new around here, so forgive me if my ignorance shows. I do not know who this "Chuck" is that is referenced, but there seems to be a debate as to his credentials. I'm OK with that for now. I am curious about who you would consider a credible source for this topic? I intend to compare.

Thanks

Just look several posts above this one - there are simple instructions there for anyone to use. Compare all you like. Here are some rather 'interesting' articles on the above source 'Chuck' which may shed some light.

www.discord.org...

stupidevilbastard.com...

Certainly nothing credible in this character re: knowledge of early christian history.

J.

Originally posted by Elisha4Yah

Originally posted by jimbo999
reply to post by Elisha4Yah

 

Problem is of course is that this was most likely 'written' by some itinerant jewish or christian priest. Revelation is a work of fiction - historically proven to be so in fact. The research is out there, easy to locate. All you've got to do is actually WANT to know the truth.

J.

I've heard and read a lot of debunking of the book of Revelation and have yet to find anything worthy enough to even give a second thought. I am a skeptical person, believe it or not. But I'm more apt to investigate further when I read opposition against the Scriptures, especially the book of Revelation. My reason; my faith in Yahshua. I defend the truth and will continue to do so, no matter what. The book of Revelation is an unveiling of 'who' the Son of man is. Everything in it is about Him and what He did and what He does, what happens, what is happening, the blessings, the curses and so on. It is mainly intended to be a book of comfort for believers in this world, because while we are in this world we will suffer tribulation.

Here's a thought. How can a person who doesn't believe in Yahshua as Messiah ever think he/she can speak any truth whatsoever about Him? If you don't believe, you are in darkness and His light makes no sense to you. I don't understand all there is to understand in the Scriptures, I'm still here and continue to seek Him in faith and trust. But how can a person who doesn't even believe in Him talk about Him like he/she knows something? A non-believer listens to man and his lies, a believer listens to The Word of Truth, the ONLY one who can save us. Man can save you from choking but you might get hit by a bus an hour later. Yahshua can save you from all things. True life does not lay in the flesh.

Whose 'Truth'? Your 'Truth'? Biblical 'Truth'? It's fiction my friend Biblical scholars have proved this decades ago. Beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Sorry to break this to you.

J.

reply to post by Dark Skies


Did you ever realize that revelation wasn't written by John of Patmos... it was written by another scholar (idiot)

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
With all the talk about 666, I'd like to point out that recent discoveries of new manuscripts indicate that the actual number was 616, and many scholars believe that it referred to Caligula.
See the following link to details:
www.aymnetwork.com...

Really? I heard it was Nero.

I guess you never know

Originally posted by Quazga
Did you ever realize that revelation wasn't written by John of Patmos... it was written by another scholar (idiot)

And what scholar [idiot] might that be? Most serious scholars, both secular and Christian, agree it was written by a man named John who was on the island of Patmos. Therefore, John of Patmos. What they argue about is whether or not this John of Patmos was John the Apostle. First and second century eye witnesses attest to the fact they were one and the same. Not until centuries later did it begin to be questioned. So should we believe the first hand witnesses and apostolic fathers (many who were killed for their faith) or someone in the 21st century with an ax to grind who is probably still living in their mother's basement?

reply to post by Quazga


Hi Quazga
Actually, it all depends upon which scholar you believe. It is true that Nero's name breaks down numerically to 666. which had been the prevailing thought up until about 2005. At that time, new manuscripts were discovered which seemed to indicate that the actual number in Revelations was 616. Caligula's name breaks down into 616.

What many scholars believe, and I tend to agree with them, is that many writers hide the actual target of their writings, for fear of retaliation. You see that also with many of the Nostradamus writings. Some people claim that he's talking about things far into the future. Others feel that his "predictions" were nothing more than hidden criticisms of royalty of his era.

The bottom line is that scripture and its meaning come down to a matter of faith. Those that have it see one meaning (or as you can see from the thread- many meanings), while others merely deny that it means anything.
My personal feeling is that much of revelation is allegorical. Others take it more literal. Again, faith comes into play. I personally believe in salvation, but don't believe that it's my place to tell others what to believe. Faith can't be proven or disproven... that's why it's called faith.
Nice talking to you though.

Originally posted by jimbo999
Whose 'Truth'? Your 'Truth'? Biblical 'Truth'? It's fiction my friend

Biblical scholars have proved this decades ago. Beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Sorry to break this to you.

J.

Why are you asking me a question I just answered you? You believe man over the Word of the One who not only created you but can destroy you. You enjoy lies over truth and your sources, your "Biblical scholars" as you call them, wouldn't know the first thing about the Word, because anyone who reads the Word with the intent to prove against it, is clearly "Anti" Word. You have no knowledge and no evidence to support one thing you say. I'd highly suggest you get some though, my friend

[edit on 29-1-2008 by Elisha4Yah]

reply to post by jimbo999


UHG! Ok, so much for "Chuckie". Obviously a detriment to his own cause. But now I am left with who you would consider a credible source for biblical scholarship? Maybe there isn't one? I realize that from the tone of your posts, you don't subscribe to the Christian philosophy, but perhaps there is someone you respect even if you don't agree?

reply to post by Ketzer22


Hi Ketzer22/

The Mark.....ΧΑΡΑΓΜΑ (literally means 'etch')pronounced..Ha-ra-gma
Let no man deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless there is first the apostasy and the man of sin, the son of destruction, is revealed…” (2.2-3)
The mark wont be forced on people...

Outside source///Second Epistle to the Thessalonians.
Many Thessalonians were so convinced that the Second Coming of Christ was at hand that they had even stopped working.
St. Paul considered this harmful, and asked them “not to be quickly shaken from your mind, nor to be disturbed, neither through a spirit, nor through a word, nor through a letter supposedly from us, that the Day of the Lord has come.
Let no man deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless there is first the apostasy and the man of sin, the son of destruction, is revealed…” (2.2-3)
And a warning......
At the same time, the appearance of the technology is undoubtedly a sign of the times (Matthew 16.3), a sign that we are approaching the end, and that we must prepare ourselves spiritually for the coming of the Antichrist.

''"And he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond,
to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, unless he that had the mark,
or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom;
So, if one was to NOT receive this Mark, then one would not be able to buy or sell......The mark will not be forced on people.

It will be a coming time for 'testing faith, hope and Love' and above all else, one must be spiritually ready because "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect" (Mk 13:22)....False interpretations and trusting in one's own judgment about what The Apocalypse says.
Those that live in a Wordly way.....lover of money 'Avarice' above all else.
Lover of food.....those that think of filling their stomach to an extent of being Greedy......Gluttonous..not being content with a little food, but wanting more.
Having no Love for others,but only for oneself.
Eat less....be content with a little food
Live and don't judge another, look at one's own faults and accuse oneself.....humble yourself.
If one has pride, one always imagines him/herself to be better and more in a position to do whatever.


IX
helen

Originally posted by xDove007
Prephecies are like riddles. We could either take them literally, or analyze what it could possibly mean. Even so, not "everyone" can pick apart and find its meaning. It takes a person whose a) religious or b) a scholar of sorts.

Which leads me to say that finding the "beast" is not as easy as cutting out a piece of cake.

Correction: One does not have to be religious or a scholar to understand Prophecy. Prophecy, that is, TRUE prophecy is a spiritual gift given by Yahweh Yahshua.

Romans 12:5-7
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

Originally posted by Quazga


Why do you people continue to believe that the rapture is some kind of actual doctrine? It was made up long after the reformation. Catholics don't have any doctrine of Rapture, nor to the Orhtodox, are they not Christians?

Geesh...

first of all, who is "you people?" i am the only one speaking here, I am not speaking for Christianity here. Apparently you didnt read my post before sending me your argument. i am saying that no one can really know 100% what is going to come about in the revelation before it happens. but, that is just my opinion. other people can say that they know for a fact that things will or will not happen, and i cannot prove them wrong, just like i cant prove you wrong.

however, it is useless to prove something on this forum. nothing is ever proven on these forums, i just like them because there are some interesting topics and hot debates.

I am not Catholic, nor am i Orthodox, so therefore i cannot judge or prejudge a religion that is not my own. I can say that in my church, we are supposed to use our best judgement to develop our own beliefs about these kinds of things. that is the way i was taught.

As for your theory on revelation not being doctrine, BOOM, shot down. anyway, good luck in life Quazga!

reply to post by Quazga


Sorry took so long to reply, If anyone can remember it I need someone to link up to the thread: St. Malachy/Pope Prophecy(I can't find the thread maybe I'm just not seeing it). Well anyway this thread dealt with predictions straight from the bible made by St. Malachy in like 1100 or something, In short he prophecyzed all of the remaining Pope's deaths up until the last Pope. The video on the sight had to do with what he had led into about the last Pope from his predictions out of The Book of Revelations. The last Pope is stated to be a man of the people, much like if not a spitting image of, John Paul II; who was declared the People's Pope. As I stated earlier I'm not religous, I do although go genuinely on proof: Supposably from what I've read this St. Malachy has anounced Pope death after Pope death, catch is he wrote it a thousand years ago. So I'll quit rambling hopefully that was enough information for you, just google St. Malachy and you'll get a thousand hits.