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Originally posted by Heronumber0
In fact, on ATS, a theistic, deistic belief of Creation and Evolution was knocked down because God must have allowed parasites and other bugs to evolve with us and use people as hosts.
Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
The way I see it so far, if God created the parasite that attacks a child's eye (Toxocara canis) then he also allowed distinguished schools of Parasitology to be set up
Originally posted by Heronumber0
In fact, on ATS, a theistic, deistic belief of Creation and Evolution was knocked down because God must have allowed parasites and other bugs to evolve with us and use people as hosts.
Originally posted by melatonin
Heh, I know I like to bring this up, so I guess this might be mine? I actually first heard it from David Attenborough. I only really use it to challenge people who use the argument from 'it's all so bleedin' beautiful, therefore god'.
Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
David Hume
It's certainly not an issue for many fundamentalists who do invoke some type of malevolent psychopathic deity.
He might have actually asked and ensured this in his 'holy' books then, could have improved the lives of quite a few people over the last few thousands of years. I guess he thought not eating shellfish was more important...
It is by our endeavours we have these institutions, housing people who work their butts off to improve the lives of others. Don't take away from their efforts.
Originally posted by Heronumber0
OK, OK. I should have cited it properly and it was you in a debate with a YEC-er.
All things dull and ug-ly
All creatures, short and squat
All things rude and na-sty
The Lord God made the lot
Each little snake that poisons
Each little wasp that stings
He made their prudish venom
He made their horrid wings
All things sick and cancerous
All evil great and small
All things foul and dangerous
The Lord God made them all
Each nasty little hornet
Each beastly little squid
Who made the spiky urchin
Who made the sharks, he did
All things scant and ulcerous
All pox both great and small
Putrid, foul and gangrenous
The Lord God made them all
Amen
And how many times have you felt fulfilment and motivation from solving a problem that seemed insuperable?
I think you would have to define the parameters of evil here. I cannot see evil occurring outside of the human race. So perhaps it is there to contrast with good, otherwise how would we know the feeling of overcoming it? I remember reading a book from Samuel Johnson about a prince who was protected from the evils of the outside world and had to venture out of his estates to examine the true fragile nature of human experience - warts and all! He then recognised the nature of good and evil.
It is right it should be so;
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Joy and woe are woven fine,
A clothing for the soul divine.
Under every grief and pine
Runs a joy with silken twine.
Melatonin, the Bible is a book of ethics - not a de facto book of Science. It is to encourage people to choose good actions for an invisible Deity and for eternal reward.
I hope I don't diminish the role of so many - atheists and otherwise- who have strived to improve the fate of humanity. I respect their efforts. I am only saying that God gave them an intelligence that resembles a quantum computer for a reason. It is to recognise patterns and trends and then to use metacognition to understand purpose. Of course you will disagree...
Originally posted by melatonin
I suppose the worm eating an child's eyeball can be boxed as suffering, rather than evil. But the question here is ultimately the problem of evil and suffering. If this god of yours is omnipotent and also all good, he could easily curtail the suffering of innocent babies and children (and I won't buy the original sin stuff). He could do it now, he could have done it 100,000 years ago, he could do it tomorrow. But he chose not to. Indeed, if we are to take teleological creation to heart, he actually designed them to eat eyeballs of children (which is most relevant to my own use of this issue).
And I agree that we need both the rough and the smooth of emotions to fully appreciate each:
It is right it should be so;
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Joy and woe are woven fine,
A clothing for the soul divine.
Under every grief and pine
Runs a joy with silken twine.
William Blake
Auguries of Innocence
I agree, but the point is that if your god really wanted man to end suffering in these ways, he could have ensured this rather than worry about clothes of two fabrics, which isn't some great ethical issue. It is solely through our endeavours that we have reduced suffering for many people. I think to suggest some phantom 'allows' us to do these things is an affront to the effort people put in to improve human well-being. And lest we forget, from this point of view he also 'allows' other people to crash planes into buildings, rape little children, and perform acts of genocide.
And, yes, I do disagree with god giving us intelligence. But I know you're not surprised.
But the problem of evil and suffering is something for you theists to worry about, it has little salience for me. Anyway, as I said, it's not an argument against theism, just what sort of deity you might want to imagine.
Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier
You're all forgetting the ultimate evil and the ultimate suffering that exists. A place that has the most horrendous tortures and evil abominations specifically designed to make humans suffer. I'm talking about HELL.
Christians say that God simply allows evil to happen, which in itself is horrible. If you have the power to prevent 5 innocent little Amish schoolchildren from being shot execution style, and you don't, you are either incredibly stoic or inhumane. If you allow cancer or Parkinson's to take fathers from families, husbands from wives, and mothers from children, you are sadistic. Yeah okay, create a disease that murders millions of family members per year and then say "Hey I'm not evil! I'm just allowing possibilites!" If you believe in such a God and call him good at the same time, delusion has taken you over.
By the way, 10% of Americans are Atheist, but only .02% of Prisoners in Jail are Atheist.
Originally posted by Heronumber0
Yes but my God also engendered the conditions in which many scientists have performed research to cure many of the diseases that plague humanity. Why is it that you acknowledge the bad but not the good that God does?
Of course He allows these things melatonin.
The idea of a personal God, like one of us writ large, is fraught with difficulty. If this God is omnipotent, he could have prevented the Holocaust. If he was unable to stop it, he is impotent and useless; if he could have stopped it and chose not to, he is a monster. Jews are not the only people who believe that the Holocaust put an end to conventional theology.
I don't entirely agree. you would have to come up with an evolutionary mechanism for something like sadism. Why is it that a segment of the population enjoy inflicting suffering on others and, indeed, enjoy the experience? What would be the evolutionary advantage of sadism, happiness and so on...?
Originally posted by missa_wiccan_chick
I see that there isn't a Wiccan perspective on this, and I don't know if you wanted one but here goes:
There has to be a balance in the world, of good and evil. Without the evil, there would be no good.
It also goes along with philosophy of things happen for a reason. Things are meant to happen in a persons life, good or bad. It's what makes the world go round.
Originally posted by missa_wiccan_chick
People are generally evil. It's not the person, it's the intent.
Mother earth hasn't got anything to do with that, it's free will that is the problem. But without free will, we all would be lost.
So we have Karma.
en.wikipedia.org...