A call for regulatory boards on all religious activity and church governance. .

Right now big religion does just as she pleases, it would be nice if there were in place something akin to an institutional review board (IRB) at Universities that oversees all research and makes sure that it (departments faculty, graduate students , grant based research etc...) conducts research in an ethical manner that does not in any way harm the participant...people are "participants" when they go to church, and with thousands of various denominations, and the rampant corruption we see and the huge history of bloodshed and horrendous crimes all in the name of God and religion...really it's now time more than ever for the organized religions to begin having in place ethical review boards.

I would like to see a voluntary (initially) ethics review board made of community wide stakeholders (clergy, customers of the church, Professors, students, members of community leadership such as business and community organizations...Govn't would be great but there is a separation of state and religion so we have to leave out govn't, although couldn't members of the govn't be on such a board? essensually a board made of a well rounded and representative base representing society in general...)to oversee all religious activities...

Churches who can't abide by what the board believes is in the the best interest of the people will have their charters revoked and be unable to practice religion in this country.

[edit on 21-1-2008 by skyshow]

[edit on 21-1-2008 by skyshow]

[edit on 21-1-2008 by skyshow]

And at the entrance to all churches and on the cover of the bible and all publications, just like on a pack of cigarettes the following message:

Warning: Religiosity may be dangerous to your intellectual and emotional health and may cause deficiencies in logic, artificial suspension of disbelief, mood swings, marital / family problems, delusional thoughts and behavior, acute psychosis, suicide, and economic hardship.


here's another


Warning: Big Religion may indoctrinate you into a belief system you wouldn't ordinarily in sound mind adopt, that may result in lack of funding for health care, education, social services, public infrastructure and increased funding for war and defense.

[edit on 21-1-2008 by skyshow]

[edit on 21-1-2008 by skyshow]

You lost me especially in your second post. It turned me off and sounds like more antireligious bigotry. Basically, the "disclaimers" are saying religion removes all semblance of reason, logic, intellectualism, and individualism. Your I.Q. will suddenly deteriorate the moment you confess belief. This does not happen, obviously.

And you pretty much stated the snag I was going to use: Separation of church and state. That would be the problem at least for America and other nations with this policy. Countries like China and Russia already heavily monitor and regulate the religions of their citizens (and look at some of the terrifying problems it has caused at least for China). And we see what government mandated religions did to Europe in the past.

I prefer to keep the government's nose out of religions unless the religious establishments or adherents break the law like with terrorism, child molestation, female circumcision, [physical] punishment for breaking their religious laws, etc.



[edit on 1/21/2008 by AshleyD]

reply to post by AshleyD


I agree and not only that but the fact that their second disclaimer doesnt really apply seeing as at the core of several religon's currently in practice focus on such things as education, social services, and health care. That they also are not supporting the current war. Not to mention that religon really has nothing to do with this particular war that one of the main factors causing it is the American belief that we should not be willing to pay more for a gallon of gas than we do for a gallon of water.

If any religious organizations wish to be exempt from taxes, then definitely some sort of independent oversight services, along with financial disclosures, fraud accountability and penalty enhancement, should be implemented and enacted under United States federal law, IMHO. This is to ensure that moral and ethical responsibility on all religious activities is reported.

In other words, I personally would like reasonable assurance that my 'donations' are not being utilized for any foul play on the lives of innocent followers of any faith. Sometimes there needs to be some sort of 'intervention' when things get a little out of hand; for I see too many different dominations popping up all over the nation: It's ridiculous.

[edit on 21-1-2008 by pikypiky]

90% of USA is identifiable as Christian. The Christian right voted for Bush/Cheney et. al. and thus got us this phony war and awful occupation resulting in hundreds of thousands of dead people and higher oil prices. Also the Republican party is not known for championing those social areas (as a matter of fact, they are known for just the opposite, cutting budgets and services for the people to intern pay for overinflated defense budgets and war activities), and so indirectly the argument can be made that religion mobilized the people for political support of the Republican party and their agenda of increased oil profits for cartel groups and oil companies, and let's not forget the war profiteers a la Haliburton and Cheney who will make millions the day they all leave office, decreased taxes on the rich making a gigantic deficit your children and their grandchildren will end up paying for, and strong cut backs in social services and programs to benefit the people not in the upper 10%, while increasing funding on war activities and defense budgets. These are the same people who blocked Democratic proposed health care for children, and continue to block universal coverage for all Americans, and yet Christians tripped over one another to vote for these people, and will do so again and again, just as they are told. It's no accident that Utah & Idaho vote nearly 90% for Republican candidates every single election cycle.

Churches have their hands in education and these areas, that is true. Unfortunately most Americans can't afford the tuition. Nevertheless, you state it as though it's pure altruism. Ha haa....the church learned how to indoctrinate people as early as possible a long long time ago. Some churches, such as the with the Mormon church for example, require those who accept church services to pay for it. I've heard stories where the church would later come and confiscate a families milk cow just to get their money...Growing up I had a friend who came from one of those big religious families (you know multiply and prosper, even though the planet can not sustain it) who because of giving to the church, could not afford to properly cloth their kids, and everyone morning one child would go without breakfast so that the family could give to the church...I could go on and on....

I stand by both of those "warnings". People need to be told up front what they are getting into before they sign on the dotted line (idea of informed consent), as it were. Of course with infant child, or even child baptisms, that becomes nearly impossible, and thus that whole idea needs to be submitted to an ethical review board...but since we don't have one that will never happen! There is a reason the moral idea of having an ethics review board made up of community stakeholders does not exist, is because the churches don't want them crimping their style.

But keep on believing brothers and sisters, here, have some more cool-aide, there's plenty to go around, and it comes in multiple flavors to meet the needs of the vast Christian market.

[edit on 21-1-2008 by skyshow]

[edit on 21-1-2008 by skyshow]

[edit on 21-1-2008 by skyshow]

[edit on 21-1-2008 by skyshow]

Originally posted by skyshow
Right now big religion does just as she pleases, it would be nice if there were in place something akin to an institutional review board (IRB) at Universities that oversees all research and makes sure that it (departments faculty, graduate students , grant based research etc...) conducts research in an ethical manner that does not in any way harm the participant...people are "participants" when they go to church, and with thousands of various denominations, and the rampant corruption we see and the huge history of bloodshed and horrendous crimes all in the name of God and religion...really it's now time more than ever for the organized religions to begin having in place ethical review boards.

Are you some left wing liberal? The same s**t I hear here from several NGOs and one political party who are financed mainly from USA.
After reading your 3rd post, I am pretty sure you are leftist.

Originally posted by skyshow
I would like to see a voluntary (initially) ethics review board made of community wide stakeholders (clergy, customers of the church, Professors, students, members of community leadership such as business and community organizations...Govn't would be great but there is a separation of state and religion so we have to leave out govn't, although couldn't members of the govn't be on such a board? essensually a board made of a well rounded and representative base representing society in general...)to oversee all religious activities...

Welcome in communism. If vast majority of people are religious then tiny minority of non religious people can’t decide in vast majority name.

Originally posted by skyshow
Churches who can't abide by what the board believes is in the the best interest of the people will have their charters revoked and be unable to practice religion in this country.

There is another way and it is done in European countries.

In my country, there are 5 Churches and 2 religious communities which are recognized by law and state as traditional Churches and religious communities, and they have all rights and obligations from Act about Churches and religious communities. All others don’t have some rights.

Originally posted by skyshow
And at the entrance to all churches and on the cover of the bible and all publications, just like on a pack of cigarettes the following message:

Warning: Religiosity may be dangerous to your intellectual and emotional health and may cause deficiencies in logic, artificial suspension of disbelief, mood swings, marital / family problems, delusional thoughts and behavior, acute psychosis, suicide, and economic hardship.


here's another


Warning: Big Religion may indoctrinate you into a belief system you wouldn't ordinarily in sound mind adopt, that may result in lack of funding for health care, education, social services, public infrastructure and increased funding for war and defense.

So, you want dictatorship of minority of atheists.

reply to post by AshleyD

Whole Europe regulated it, but USA is just religious Wild West. There were pressures from NGOs financed from USA that my country makes law about religious communities which will be the same as is in USA [freedom and equality to all religious communities]. Of course that didn’t happen like didn’t happen in the rest of Europe. It’s impossible that modern sects have the same right as traditional churches that have presence here hundreds of years.

read it again. I did not say a government agency to do the regulating. This would be a review board set up including all stakeholders of the community. Do you know what a stakeholder is? it's everyone who has a stake in the organization. Would you rather have unchecked and continued unethical religious / church activities. I would think everyone who is religious would welcome something like this, and that people would fall over one another for the prestige of being able to volunteer and sit on such a board.

Um, these issues have nothing to do with left or right. When people who need life saving health care, but can't get it, it doesn't matter to them if it's right or left. When a family can't afford to feed itself because the church takes their money something needs to be done. When a church acts like a political action committee or even in some cases a party, then they should no longer be able to get tax exempt status. These are not left or right...this is morality.

reply to post by skyshow

As I said in Europe it is solved by law. If Church or religious community violates the law, they are going to court. Simple as that. There is no need for regulation body. There is need for Act about religious communities.

You heard for Wahabism? In Serbia there is small community of them in Raska district [btw there live majority of Muslims in Serbia]. But they are foreign body in local Muslim Sunni community and it was public secret they are planning terrorist’s acts. They were tolerated by years by state because of religious tolerance of state, but last year many of them were arrested and now they have trial. Reason – a lot of weapons were found in their houses. They are now charged for illegal owning of weapons and for planning terrorism [one part of charge is for conspiracy for blowing up US Embassy in Belgrade].

So, if you violate the laws, you are going down.

It's a very bad idea. Forced regulation will send the whole thing into martyrdom status. First popular mom and pop church that gets yanked down will set this thing on its ear and it'll be downhill for everyone (not just christians), from there.

reply to post by Vojvoda

As I said in Europe it is solved by law. If Church or religious community violates the law, they are going to court. Simple as that. There is no need for regulation body. There is need for Act about religious communities.

Because government is not always representative of the people, and particularly in those governments that are less democratic...I am proposing one made up of STAKEHOLDERS of the community. For example. several members from various churches, some clergy, a few randomly selected public citizens, community leaders, professors and graduate students....a broad based representation of society that would meet regularly to discuss the impact of these activities on all aspects of life...taking money for instance, from an elderly women who needs it to buy her medicine, would obviously get the ax. Using a state owned jet to fly your revival meetings around the country to save sinners, while buying the jet fuel with tax payers money would obviously not cut the muster. But the idea being that the government doesn't do it, thus it should be somewhat better protected from political ideologies, in that you would expect your review board to be made up of a "broad based representation of society".

Also in our country (USA) we have separation of church and state as / per the Constitution, and also in legal precedent. Thus our struggles with prayer in school, having the ten commandments posted at the court house, or providing contraceptives to curb teen pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases...or any one of the myriad of religious issues we face...the big struggle is depending on the issue, a push for more state control, or more church control. If we don't do something, someone eventually is going to push an amendment to overturn this, and then you'll have a government body like what this guy from the Eastern Europe area says they have...

reply to post by undo


I love that Avitar...stunning! Yes, and we also need dramatic increases in funding and access to education from K-12 and undergraduate and graduate programs. Critical thinking, statistics (the scientific method), philosophy, need huge bump ups here in America. Also increases in the arts, and of course the basics as well. Bottom line our people need to learn first their history, and then how to reason properly, or I would just be satisfied with the ability to reason. If we are going to teach kids religion, let's teach them about all of the world's religions, and all the issues (good and bad) that they are evolved with, and what alternatives there are, and what evidence there is to support each one. But give people the information they need to make an informed decision, and not just the information that supports only one religion, or even religion in general. We need to also consider that all religion may be bogus, or that maybe it is not. All of that would reside with increases in education funding, something again the Republicans over here (gee, wonder why? oh, is it because they get a huge block of support from the churchs????) poo poo and cut funding for. In fact it's becoming so bad many more than even just 10 years ago, are unable to afford any further education beyond 12th grade. Infact some can't even afford to stay in high school and are dropping out to help earn money for their families....it's a mess, it's political, and once again religion has her skirt tail dipped in ink.

Anyway, I apologize if it appears I have hogged the thread. I want to hear all sorts of opinions pro and con on this as long as they are well thought out and supported by something, but I also want to be sure that what I am talking about is fully understood. If you've read everything I have posted, it should be pretty clear. This is not the same thing as China or Russia has LOL. Just like when someone suggests blanket health care like everyone else in the civilized world has, they start freaking out with visions of cycles and hammers dancing in their heads...proof that propaganda is alive and well in the United States.

Well we already do teach all those things. In fact, our history books are full of commentary on how christians did this and that through out history, making it sound like everyone with the name john is a psychotic killer. Sorta like assuming all males are a viral plague on the planet just because millions of them down threw history have made bad choices. this doesn't mean women haven't made bad choices as well, so let's toss them in to. women and men. we've all made bad choices so let's blame it on all of us. nope. we have to isolate out one group and point the fingers at anyone that matches that. it's institutionalized prejudice, rubber stamped till the paper is worn out.

i was in a world religions class. we learned about everything, especially hinduism (the teacher was hindu). the class fniished off with a visit from the local wiccan queen, who proceeded to enlighten us about the joys of witchcraft. well, we didn't learn about everything. we glossed over the monontheistic religions, because the teacher didn't like those and felt they were over represented anyway.

funny thing is, i'd be the first person to defend that his religion wasn't based on fairy tales. i actually believe the mahabharata and the other vedic texts are telling real historical events. but because i'm a christian, well there goes the neighborhood. egads, property values will go down.

most of the time in that class, if he mentioned christianity at all, it was to plaster it with some negative jibe. what's the point of all this anomosity? youi mean to tell me no other group or institution with power on the planet has ever waged war, been dishonest, cruel heartleass and presented themselves as shiining beacons of virtue? puhleeassse.

that's the problem. i actually read more than just the info you get handed in the mainstream institutions of our lands. i read everthing i could get my hands on

[edit on 21-1-2008 by undo]

Originally posted by skyshow
Because government is not always representative of the people, and particularly in those governments that are less democratic...I am proposing one made up of STAKEHOLDERS of the community. For example. several members from various churches, some clergy, a few randomly selected public citizens, community leaders, professors and graduate students....

That is impossible for USA because as I know 1st amendment protect freedom of religion. There are so many Churches and religious communities in USA that I don’t see how they can be all well represented.

Originally posted by skyshow
a broad based representation of society that would meet regularly to discuss the impact of these activities on all aspects of life...taking money for instance, from an elderly women who needs it to buy her medicine, would obviously get the ax. Using a state owned jet to fly your revival meetings around the country to save sinners, while buying the jet fuel with tax payers money would obviously not cut the muster. But the idea being that the government doesn't do it, thus it should be somewhat better protected from political ideologies, in that you would expect your review board to be made up of a "broad based representation of society".

Are some Churches and/or religious communities in USA receiving money from federal budget?

Originally posted by skyshow
Also in our country (USA) we have separation of church and state as / per the Constitution, and also in legal precedent.

The same is in Europe.

My country:
www.parlament.sr.gov.yu...
Secularity of the State

Article 11
The Republic of Serbia is a secular state.
Churches and religious communities shall be separated from the state.
No religion may be established as state or mandatory religion.

And that’s in whole Europe. But, there is also law which regulates rights and obligations of Churches and religious communities like are in the rest of Europe.

Originally posted by skyshow
Thus our struggles with prayer in school, having the ten commandments posted at the court house, or providing contraceptives to curb teen pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases...or any one of the myriad of religious issues we face...the big struggle is depending on the issue, a push for more state control, or more church control. If we don't do something, someone eventually is going to push an amendment to overturn this, and then you'll have a government body like what this guy from the Eastern Europe area says they have...

AshleyD is from USA. There is no such a regulation body in Russia as I know.
Btw, in Europe there are religious classes in schools where students learn about religion [form and name of class vary from country to country].


[edit on 21-1-2008 by Vojvoda]

reply to post by Vojvoda


Your not understanding me. This is not a government agency for the umpteenthmillionth time!!! It is a call, a bid for the churches and religious organizations to come together and create the IRB. What part of this is not government agency don't you understand?

Otherwise, thanks for the information. This proposal is made up of a voluntary effort at self regulation (signed legally binding agreements to abide by the charter and recommendations, but they set it up), but inclusive of the greater community at large.

[edit on 21-1-2008 by skyshow]

Originally posted by skyshow
reply to post by Vojvoda

 

Your not understanding me. This is not a government agency for the umpteenth millionth time!!! It is a call, a bid for the churches and religious organizations to come together and create the IRB. What part of this is not government agency don't you understand?

As I know such a body already exists:
National Council of the Churches of Christ in the USA
en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by skyshow
Otherwise, thanks for the information. This proposal is made up of a voluntary effort at self regulation (signed legally binding agreements to abide by the charter and recommendations, but they set it up), but inclusive of the greater community at large.

Read above.

That's not the same either. Although it's close. I'm using the stakeholder model....it doesn't just include people from the churches. Big difference there. it represents even the non-believers, because the behavior of the church can even effect them...I appreciate your good will and effort at contributing, but this organization is not exactly what I am proposing. In my model the foxes don't guard the hen house.

[edit on 21-1-2008 by skyshow]

Originally posted by skyshow
That's not the same either. Although it's close. I'm using the stakeholder model....it doesn't just include people from the churches. Big difference there. it represents even the non-believers, because the behavior of the church can even effect them...I appreciate your good will and effort at contributing, but this organization is not exactly what I am proposing. In my model the foxes don't guard the hen house.

[edit on 21-1-2008 by skyshow]

not the foxes? so then the wolves. same same.

the hens are the point. not the wolves who don't like the foxes.

[edit on 21-1-2008 by undo]

A regulatory commitee has no teeth without the powe to enforce regulations and exact punishment on those who break them. This is ridiculous. I don't have the time in my life to destroy your bigoted arguments. I admit that I loathe some organized churches. And I know that I would love to kick them out of my community. However, It is neither my right nor place to involve myself. More Government is a bad thing, not a good thing. And it is only a matter of timne before your local boards became county boards, state boards, and then federal ones.
Oh, and just so you look less like a leftest, hateful, idiot, make sure you check your facts. A recent poll recently said that 90% of all Amercans believe in some sort of heavenly creator, not in christianity. Christianity is the belief in Christ the Messiah, and the neccesity of this belief as the only means of furthering our spiritual afterlife. I have alot to say on the subject, but you have hardened your heart, so it matters not.